Thunder-Lord lists

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Verging off topic, but I see your thunderlord, and I offer an alternative...

 

...the bike lord! Can move 24" every turn, has a 10 point start over the thunderbun and can have a modest 25 point-per-model power armour pack with him. Gets a 3+ invunerable for the whole pack if he puts his foot down too, and can fire-off his relentless weapon to his hearts content.

 

Is the thunderwolf really worth it over this? Not for me. Forget that 'running' business... Try and keep out of this guys charge range :(

 

Except your entire unit, lacking Saga of Bear on your WOL, is prone to ID since you are considered t4. And sure it is a 24" move which gets you a 3+ save, but then you can do absolutely nothing for an entire turn in which you enemy is going to shoot the heck out of you (3+ still can be failed), move away from you, or assault you.

 

I will stick with my Thunder Lords.

 

As I said, I was offering an alternative.

 

Instant death seems like an odd argument for the whole unit as most of a bike pack only have one wound :P . ICs will always be vuneralbe to various weapons, psychic powers and other tricks, and in most cases the bike lord has the same toughness - it is only ID that it ignores, and turning into a chaos spawn or an I or L test will have the same pitfalls. Its not even like thunderwolves ignore instant death anyway, its just harder - vindicator? Smash! It would have exactly the same effect on thunderwolves as it would on the bikes. With more models on the table in an equivalent point bike pack more would survive anyway (both from the seperation perspective and from the wound roll 1s)! I also think you forget that with the bigger movement of bikes, and frankly, the lower models, you can use cover more easily than thunderwolves, thereby blocking lines of sight. If you don't use the maneuvrability of either of these units you are wasting their principle advantage, and bikes are simply faster in more situations.

 

Your comment about an opponent simply taking one of three options against approaching bikes is purely an issue of generalship - I would hardly use a 24" move and put myself straight in my opponents crosshairs while you tactically move your thunderwolves around and avoid it - both unit types have movement benefits over the other, but I would hardly claim this means bikes get shot up and thunderwolves don't.

 

Again, I emphasise, Im offering an alternative - my belief is that the benefits of bikes outway those of thunderwolves, and chief amongst a few motivators is the points cost - that is why I can understand the IC in a pack of wolves more easily. The boosts to profile provided by the thunderwolf look great but since you don't get an extra W or I, both of which I would pay the points for, and you are paying for the rending ability and mostly not using it, I don't think it outweighs the bike option.

 

As to the comment of buying them all storm shields... really? That pack is 80 points per model minimum. Think what you can buy for that, and they still have the same chance of taking a wound from a boltgun as a biker, and while wound allocation would certainly help, the points investment would be enormous and your opponents target selection decision would be pretty simple. They would die. Fast. The removal of old-school line rolling via sweeping advance has made this sort of pack much less appealing - even if they get into combat, they will be exposed again at some point and will take a massive slice of your points with them if they get hammered.

 

Finally, I wouldn't ever take wolves with a bike lord - it stops turbo boost and most of the movement advantages - a foolish sacrifice.

 

Its a trade off and, while I can see there are benefits to taking thunderwolves, I simply think bikes are the stronger alternative.

What I was saying was,that the Thunderwolves can move almost as fast as the Bikes on average,and get to assault at the end of it. While the bike would be sitting there,doing nothing the rest of that turn in exchange for that speed because Turbo Charging requires that you do NOTHING else but drive at full speed. Even though the Bikes are Relentless,they still won't be able to do anything per the rules of Turbo Charge in the Rule book.And if the Bikes wanted to do anything in a fight,they would lose that 3+ invulnerable save while my guys would have it constantly,instead of having to rely on cover saves of 4+ while they were shooting and not chewing through a unit each turn to avoid being shot in your enemies turn. So while you would be keeping them occupied,you wouldn't be killing the units as fast,which increases your chance of losing troops as well as making the rest of his army have no big shiny target to shoot at and instead going after the rest of your army while sending any heavy assault troops he has to hit your Bikes while they are tied up in combat and thus not able to counter charge. Not counting the fact that as your bikers are Blood Claws,they have a lower Weapon skill,meaning they have to roll higher to hit. And only if you manage to be the one charging will you have a close to equivalent chance to wound,as Furious Charge doesn't work on counter-charge. Although the higher initiative would be a good thing I will grant.

 

They will get close to the same amount of attacks,but 20 of the Thunderwolves attacks will have the chance to become AP1, and the other 5 allways ignore armor.while the blood claws have 27 that will never ignore armor and 3 that will. Count in the fact the WS3 means a better chance of having to roll 4's to hit vs 3's for the Cav. And if you want the Bikes to be effective against vehicles or Dreadnaughts,then you got to spend another 50 points,while i spend 20 at most,if i don't want to rely on rending to get the back armor. If you get the upgrades to an attack bike and a special weapon,your only about 75 points cheaper then the TWC unit,and less durable.

 

And yes,they will attract a bunch of attention. Especially the moment after that first charge is done. And yes it is quite likely the enemy will throw everything they have at that Pack assuming you didn't pull off a charge big enough to get two squads which the 12 inch assault range makes even easier and opens up the very real possibility of taking out both with the leadership modifications from the sheer number of wounds they would cause. The Shields are there to help ensure that they survive to do it again. With the wound allocation and the good chance of making a 3+ invulnerable,Plus the fact that Missiles and Lascannons, which are the most common anti-tank weapons will still have to have a total of..6 failed saves,before even a single model is taken off the board.7 if you throw a wound at your lord every now and then,which I honestly would with missiles since he would still have the 2+ save while missiles and lascannons would wound on 2+ and kill without a save. And yes,this list is only really Viable in a list of around oh..1800 points or more if you want to include the Wolf Lord...But it pretty much ensures that the enemy will get tunnel vision trying to stop the rampaging Thunderwolves,while the rest of my army rolls up untouched,while my Anti-tank concentrates on taking down targets that can insta-kill the Thunderwolves first and then any other targets that come along. Given how cheap missile longfangs are,it works out very nicely.

 

Rather then his whole army going after my whole army...he is concentrating on stopping a unit that is A) hard to kill and B) impossible to ignore as a threat. That is why to my mind they are a better choice. Yes you could get more toys with a bike squad instead,but I don't believe they would bring the same benefits. You get a unit that is very very durable to anything on the board,and can cause far more carnage in a turn. The only time that your Bikers have a equivalent chance of survival compared to the Thunderwolves is when being rapid-fired by a bunch of boltguns. And they still have to roll a 5 to wound in either case But every failed armor save for the Bikes means a loss of attacks where as the Thunderwolves can soak up to 5 wounds without a single drop in effectiveness. And the moment we consider the possibility of Heavy Weapons,then the Bikes do nothing but pray for 1's on wound rolls or pretty much do nothing that turn while turbo-charging,while the Thunderwolves still have their 3+ and get to keep causing carnage.

 

All of these reasons are why I feel a Thunderwolf Cav unit is more effective then a Bike unit at higher Point level lists.

[Darwinsfolly]

...They will get close to the same amount of attacks,but 20 of the Thunderwolves attacks will have the chance to become AP1, and the other 5 allways ignore armor. while the blood claws have 27 that will never ignore armor and 3 that will...

 

How did you figure this out? In the example list of TWC that you gave, they all had powered weapons meaning that each one gives up the rending ability, so yes, all 25 of your attacks will ignore armor but they lose all aspect of rending and any ranged shooting.

 

Also, you are positing a unit of swift claws that is very poorly armed comparatively, having just a power claw or power fist and costing about half of your TWC unit. If you wanted to honestly compare, you should figure the standard "tricked out" swift claw unit at comparable points includes 10 bikes, a powerfist, a plasma pistol, an attack bike w/ Multimelta, and a Wolf Priest on a bike w/ plasma pistol, runic armor and Saga of the Warrior Born. So, that's an attack of 20 twin-linked bolter rounds, 2 S7 AP2 shots, 1 S8 AP1 shot which is then followed by 41 attacks that won't ignore armor, 4 attacks at S4 I4 that ignore armor and 4 more attacks that ignore armor with S8 I1. And all those melee attacks have Preferred Enemy. This isn't a unit that I would personally send against high toughness models, but it will still chew through a full terminator unit just due to the sheer number of saving throws it would make you take and is a death star unit in it's own right.

[n00b in need]

wow, this is getting rather heated fellas, and i am noticing one thing that the TWC proponents are claiming to be the best reason for having TWC, giving them all power weapons, or wolf claws or what have you, so this leads me to ask am i the only one who's noticed that the codex specifically says that only one Thunder Wolf Rider in a pack can replace his close combat weapon? sure they can all have storm shields or Plasma Pistols, but you can give only one a PW, WC, FB, PF, or TH. unless you are all running WG on thunderwolf mounts i don't see how this is possible??? furthermore if you take 5 TWC your paying 250pts for the 5 basic models, sure they are pretty good and if you give them storm shields their 3+save turns into a 3+ inv save but to give them all SS they cost a solid 400pts for 5 guys?!?!?! i would never pay that much for five guys no matter how hard hitting or durable they are. i could take 2 full GH squads in a rhino with a power weapon in each squad for the same price and give them a free melta or plasma gun along with there free flamer. or for the same price as a basic 5 man TWC unit you can get a 10 man Swiftclaw biker pack. they still have the 3+ armour save, and are still toughness 5 for rolling for wounds but not ID, so you get twice as many guys, statistically making the squad twice as survivable, but you have to remember their still blood claws. the only reasons i don't take TWC is that only one can be given a special issue close combat weapon, and the fact that its so hard to come by wolves to use for their mounts. since i'm working on becoming a serious tourny player i have to use GW products if i want to use them in offical GW tournys. that leaves just Goblin-Wolf Riders, and personally i've never bought any as i wasn't sure if i'd be able to fit space marines on their backs or if they were big enough to look good as space marine mounts (too small and they'd just look stupid and unfluffy since the marines would break the wolves backs). so if anyone can tell me how i can kit TWC with more power weapons or if Goblin Wolf Rider wolves are decent plz let me know guys, thanks.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@noob: no, your not the only one, i run my TWC in units of 3 for this reason. i guy with TH and SS, 1 with SS and 1 normal.

 

any bigger and it gets unweildy.

 

WLK

[LoneSniperSG]

So what makes a good Thunder0-Lord list?

 

1. Wolf Lord on TWM, accompanied by a TWC unit or other Wolf Lords on TWM.

2. Mechanized Troops

3. Fenrisian wolves as bullet magnets for joined hammer unit

4. Long Fangs, either mechanized or foot slogging.

5. Not much armored beyond transports.

6. Lack of Wolf Guard completely

 

Considering what seems to be the fast decapitating kill tactics, I wonder how the following would fit into a Thunder-Lord list:

 

1. Swift Claw biker pack, led by a WGPL on a bike or Wolf Priest on a bike.

2. Rune Priest on a bike

3. Speeders

4. Wolf Scouts

5. Dakka Dreads

 

With all of that mobility and speed, why in blazes would you not take tanks so that your heavier weapons can actually keep up with the front line?

 

Granted, lascannons, missile launchers and even Heavy Bolters get a good range on your average 4x6 table, but having to move them all the time means they aren't shooting very often, and as your rapid-assaulty style army crashes home, your heavy weapons will need to move into better positions to support you, otherwise they're shooting through your own troops and transports.

 

 

Maybe I'm a pessimist, or an all out treadhead, or both. I like heavy weapons as much as the next guy, but in the last three games, Long Fangs haven't done ANY BIT OF GOOD for me. Tanks have done much better.

[Godhead]

The original topic was thunderlords, and then a decently viable alternative to the thunderlord was offered up in the form of a bikelord. Unfortunately neither lord is an island unto himself, so you have to look at his support network as well. So lets look at the support units.

 

Just as a clarification, a unit of TWC cannot equip everyone with power weapons. Only one member of the unit is permitted to upgrade their weapon. If you are going to compare a 10 man bike unit vs a 5 man TWC unit the points per basic trooper becomes a wash as 1 standard twc=2 standard swiftclaws. Then you must take into consideration true t5vs t5(4). You also have to consider that each swiftclaw has 2 attacks (1 plus 2nd ccw) while every twc has 4 (which becomes 5 if you don't give them shields or an upgrade that prevents you from getting a second attack from 2 ccws). So a basic twc without upgrades will have 6 attacks on the charge, while 2 swiftclaws would actually have 8.

 

On the charge 10 swiftclaws would have 40 attacks. TWC would have 30 attacks. Swiftclaws would be attacking with ws3 and str 4 while twc attacks at ws 4 and str 5. The big difference comes into play with rending and str 5 vs str 4. I suck at math hammer, but wounding 2/3s of the time is much better than wounding 1/2 the time assuming MEQ.

 

The ws difference comes into play when a unit gets to return attacks. The swiftclaws will take more return hits than the twc, and each unsaved wound is a loss to the unit where as TWC can take 5 wounds before they lose effectiveness as a unit. Also in each subsequent round of combat the TWC are MUCH better than swiftclaws. They still retain 5 base attacks while the swiftclaws drop down to only 2. So if we ASSUME no losses in the second round of combat 10 swiftclaws would only have 20 attacks while 5 TWC would have 25 attacks at str 5 that rend.

 

One more tid o' bit about swiftclaws is that they succumb to the headstrong rule if they lose their packleader/IC babysitter. TWC function just fine all by themselves.

 

When we add in an IC's a TWC unit allows a lord or battle leader the opportunity to bring fen wolves as wargear. If you can claim a cover save, then putting high ap wounds on them is a fantastic bargin. Even if you fail, you still don't take anything away from the TWC. TWC also tend to fare shooting a bit better because of true T5 and the ability to make the entire unit a complex unit, thus ensuring you have 5 wounds to give up before losing effectiveness.

 

Another thing to consider is that with 10 bikers, it is very likely that you WILL NOT have all of them participating in cc, as their footprint and terrain can keep them from being in range. I know I have that problem sometimes with the TWC as well.

 

On paper I'd give the edge to the swiftclaws on the 1st round of combat due to precharge shooting and volume of attacks, and then it shifts completely after that. Plus no one really wants to zoom in, wipe out a squad on the charge, and then get shot to hell and back because they got left out in the open.

[Theis]

I do have to agree though with the OP's observation. With 'Ard Boyz being the first time I finally got to play with my wolves, I had some observations. I realized at that points level, a thunder-wolf unit would have been easy to fit in, and it would still be very powerful. Wouldn't it have been epic to have a wolf lord on his thunder-wolf, with saga of the Beast-slayer, go up against something like a Trygon in the third scenario?

 

=Edit= Oh and I do have to agree with the comment about wolf priests, I find it hard to field a unit of claws without one.

 

In third round 'ard boyz, my Lords on Thunderwolves, each with a sole remaining rider from the twolf squads they were attached to, reached my opponent's gun line. In the last two turns I split the lords from their squads, and the four of them killed two vindicators and three rhinos full of marines. On the way to the gun line, each squad and lord eliminated a land raider's worth of terminators, and crippled the land raider in the process. They immobilized one, and tore the weapons off the other.

 

In each of the land raider assault encounters, I lost a thunder wolf, and had a couple wounds scattered around the rest of the squad. Essentially, the lords killed about three terminators, the independent characters with them put some wounds on my squads, the two remaining terms (combi melta lightning claw) put the killing wound on one of my twolves, they in turn were killed by the rest of the squad, and my thunder hammer equipped wolf rider killed off the independent character. The squads got shot at as often as my opponent could arrange. Other than the thunder wolves, I lost a dreadnought and eight grey hunters.

 

So I could play wound allocation games, I ran my squads with one bolter, one melta bomb, one thunder hammer storm shield, one storm shield, and one bolt pistol ccw.

 

In the few games I've managed with them, they perform astoundingly well. They can absorb a enormous amount of damage, and are capable of doing tremendous amounts more.

 

That said, the lords and the two twolf squads came in at 1180 and were almost half my army's point allocation. For reference, the entire army, including transports, came to fifty-five models. So, they're a significant portion of your model coutn as well. Were they worth it? They earned me a couple of massacres, but I didn't face much in the way of S10 weaponry either. The game I didn't do so well in was against a very tough mech guard list run by one of the better local players. Really, the biggest weakness I faced there was a series of 2" run rolls. If I'd gotten close sooner than I did, it might have gone differently, but them's the breaks. I moved slowly and he shot me up, repeatedly.

 

They are tough, for me, to find supporting elements that mesh well with them. Just a decent selection of troops sets you back another five or six hundred points. In my hard boys list it was around seven. As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, eventually, my long fangs have to move, and that's just all sorts of inconvenient. I'm debating combi preds (ac with las sponsons) as a new heavy support choice.

 

I can't really weigh in on the Thunder Wolves vs. Bikes debate. I haven't played with bikes yet. They are on my list of things to get and paint though, they're just several projects down the list. Having played against them a few times, they seem like a lot of fun. I haven't played against them since I got my Thunder Wolves online though. I think I'll see if I can't manage that this weekend.

[Darwinsfolly]

...His pack escorting him will be more expensive granted...But you can gear them the same way,and still ensure that their weaponry is varied enough that you can do all sorts of amusing wound allocations.TH,PF,FB,WC & Melta Bombs,FB & Melta Bombs.

 

This is mostly what I was responding too, but since someone pointed out that you can't outfit this way, then my response is really moot. I do see the TWC as being more durable in the long run, but a full pack of swiftclaws should not be under estimated on the charge. I was merely playing devil's advocate to this argument when I saw what looked like an unfair balance in comparison. I hate internet arguments where someone compares apples to orangutans in an attempt to prove that their fruit tastes better. However, I do see where Req was coming with his stats posted in the post above mine; in that one he got the gear right. I thought he was still assuming the gear he listed in the post I'm quoting here, where he kits out each individual TWC.

 

If I had just read the wargear options in the codex a little closer, I could have caught that and called that argument a little earlier.

 

Oops...

[LoneSniperSG]

They are tough, for me, to find supporting elements that mesh well with them. Just a decent selection of troops sets you back another five or six hundred points. In my hard boys list it was around seven. As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, eventually, my long fangs have to move, and that's just all sorts of inconvenient. I'm debating combi preds (ac with las sponsons) as a new heavy support choice.

 

My Pred Destructor is my new favorite baby. Both players I faced in Ard Boyz had a very tough time destroying it. They were either missing or not doing much damage, and it did a good job blasting at targets of opportunity in the way of my Bikes and Speeders.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

...They will get close to the same amount of attacks,but 20 of the Thunderwolves attacks will have the chance to become AP1, and the other 5 allways ignore armor. while the blood claws have 27 that will never ignore armor and 3 that will...

 

How did you figure this out? In the example list of TWC that you gave, they all had powered weapons meaning that each one gives up the rending ability, so yes, all 25 of your attacks will ignore armor but they lose all aspect of rending and any ranged shooting.

 

Also, you are positing a unit of swift claws that is very poorly armed comparatively, having just a power claw or power fist and costing about half of your TWC unit. If you wanted to honestly compare, you should figure the standard "tricked out" swift claw unit at comparable points includes 10 bikes, a powerfist, a plasma pistol, an attack bike w/ Multimelta, and a Wolf Priest on a bike w/ plasma pistol, runic armor and Saga of the Warrior Born. So, that's an attack of 20 twin-linked bolter rounds, 2 S7 AP2 shots, 1 S8 AP1 shot which is then followed by 41 attacks that won't ignore armor, 4 attacks at S4 I4 that ignore armor and 4 more attacks that ignore armor with S8 I1. And all those melee attacks have Preferred Enemy. This isn't a unit that I would personally send against high toughness models, but it will still chew through a full terminator unit just due to the sheer number of saving throws it would make you take and is a death star unit in it's own right.

Yes I did miss that the first...twenty or so times I read that lol. Was thinking they were as customizable as WG unfortunately...So all in all,its even closer then before.

I was counting 10 bikes vs 5 TWC since the discussion was about the benefits of the varied support units for the ThunderLord VS the BikeLord.As far as upgrades goes,now its 5 SS,1 PF,and 4 MB for 445 points vs 9 normal bikes 1 attack bike. MM, plasma pistol, Melta bombs and a PF for 380 points. Now,Bikes are better in the shooting phase clearly...because the cav will be using fleet to run. Which means that the TWC will have a greater range to get to HTH combat then the Bikes,Since i believe their stat line is Move 12,Shoot,Assault 6 vs Move 6,Run D6,Assault 12.

As for hth,37 S4 attacks and 4 S8 attacks vs 20 S5 attacks that can become AP1 and 5 S10 attacks. The difference in S means that the TWC will wound more on average...Not sure of the percentages since I can't be arsed to figure them out honestly. Now,what happens when the squad you attacked,doesn't fall down dead and then attacks back. Chances are good they had enough ablative troops that a power weapon or Power fist survived. For the Bikers,that is one dead guy for every wound,no questions asked. With the TWC,Not only is every wound not automatically fatal,they get a better then even chance to survive it. Add in the 2 wounds and they get to keep some effectiveness even with some wounds taken.

 

Lets take a look at some of the likely targets that either of the two units could run into.

Marine Equivalent Hit on 4,Wound on 4 vs Hit on 4,Wound on 3. Not much difference really when you add in the extra attacks for the swift claws.The Swift claws might even end up with an advantage at this point,but that requires more math then my head can handle doped on cold meds.

Dreadnaught Hitting on a 6 for the MB,with 4 S8 attacks that hit on 4+ vs Hitting on a 6 for the MB with less chances or and this is probably what I would try 20 Attacks that hit on 4+ and could Pen if the first roll is a 6,and 5 S10 attacks that hit on 4+.So 4 chances to pen on a 6 with the PF vs 5 chances to Pen on a 4. the More chances to hit with Melta bombs might make up for the difference. Now if the Dreadnaught survives to hit back,it gets to hit back,which the bikers would not be able to save against,and the TWC would have their 3+ still

Tyrannid Brood Lord Hit on a 5,Wound on a 5 vs Hit on a 4,Wound on a 4. So as the target gets tougher or better with its weapons,the TWC gets a clear advantage that doesn't make up for the extra attacks.

Rhino glance on a 6 vs Pen on a 6 for the normal attacks Which will also become AP 1 and thus gain penetration. 4 chances to Pen on a 3+ vs 5 chances to Pen on a 1.

Land RaiderWell...Its best to aim high after all. No chance for the normal guys vs 20 attacks that could glance on rolling a pair of 6's and only lose 1 on the damage chart. Well some chance is better then none. 4 chances to glance on a 6 vs 5 chances to pen on a 5.

 

So...From what I gathered by working all this out,is that as the escort of a Lord,the TWC will be able to do better against targets that are tougher or more armored. So for a difference of 65 points if we kept with all of them having SS. If we went with instead of shields,giving them plasma pistols and a Pf. it means 24 rending attacks,5 S10 Power weapon attacks. And now its 5 S7 AP2 shots that hit on 3,vs 1 S7 AP2 and 1S8 AP1 that hit on 4. And they have the same number of wounds but don't take losses as quickly. And if we go with the plasma pistols instead of the SS,it actually costs less. 370 points if we give them melta bombs which isn't required with the rending attacks honestly...so 350 vs 380.

[Grey Mage]

I used to run bike HQ's frequently, and they got instant death'd in the early turns of the game all the time all the times.

 

A bike and Saga of the Bear certainly gives you the Thunderwolf durability, but the extra attack and point in strength makes it more then worth it over the bike lord, I think.

Were you running them with Bikers to suppor them?

[Roland Durendal]

@noob: no, your not the only one, i run my TWC in units of 3 for this reason. i guy with TH and SS, 1 with SS and 1 normal.

 

any bigger and it gets unweildy.

 

WLK

 

 

QFT WLK. I run 2 small packs of TWC:

 

One is two strong (my lord goes with them), and one guys has a SS, the other has MB. He other pack is 3 strong and has one guys with TH, on with SS, and the last has nothing special. All 3 have MBs though.

 

Both units can survive a lot of punishment and can really dish it out as well. On average these packs are dishing out around 12-15 attacks per assault phase, which makes them perfect for chewing through MEQ and GEQ units.

 

Though I am in the process of finding the points to add in a 2nd SS on my second pack...

[Wispy]

I used to run bike HQ's frequently, and they got instant death'd in the early turns of the game all the time all the times.

 

A bike and Saga of the Bear certainly gives you the Thunderwolf durability, but the extra attack and point in strength makes it more then worth it over the bike lord, I think.

Were you running them with Bikers to support them?

Yeah.

 

This was only last year when I was learning to play, and I always had terrible luck troubles with battlecannons and instant death (rolling 1 on runic armor saves, failing invulnerable saves, 3+ cover saves... uh, every battle). I jumped on Thunderwolves immediately when the codex came out.

[Grey Mage]

I used to run bike HQ's frequently, and they got instant death'd in the early turns of the game all the time all the times.

 

A bike and Saga of the Bear certainly gives you the Thunderwolf durability, but the extra attack and point in strength makes it more then worth it over the bike lord, I think.

Were you running them with Bikers to support them?

Yeah.

 

This was only last year when I was learning to play, and I always had terrible luck troubles with battlecannons and instant death (rolling 1 on runic armor saves, failing invulnerable saves, 3+ cover saves... uh, every battle). I jumped on Thunderwolves immediately when the codex came out.

Fair enough. We all have units that just seem to work better or worse for us than others eh? Just curious.

[Simo429]

last night was the first time I ran my thunderwolves with lord (giant wulfen proxies)

 

ran 4 thunderwolves all equipped with melta bombs and one with a storm shield

and a thunder lord with a storm shield and a wolf (well worth 10 points, im taking 2 next time)

 

all in all they did very well

 

took out a squad of guard themselves but then I made the silly mistake of going after the squad of 30 gaurd plus 3 lascannons and 3 seargents and a commisar that were firing at my long fangs rather than the unit he was moving to take the second objective

 

the TWC did eventually take out the guard but by that time his ogryns had come into play and my wolves had taken a few wounds and they were no match

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

As always, these kind of discussions throw up some interesting comparisons as well as clearing up some myths and misconceptions - I think we could continue the bike v thunder lord discussion for many moons - long may the learning continue and praise to the brains behind B & C!

 

An interesting concept thrown up a couple of times as an alternative was the Iron priest on a thunderwolf with some cyberdogs - anyone got any experiences with that that they would like to share? Is his single wound and thunder-hammer not a slightly risky combo, or does the relative cheapness and mobility of the pack outway that? Im looking at a conversion op here by the way!

[Grimtooth]

We are getting way off topic here. The initial disagreement came with a Thunder Lord and a Bike Lord.

 

Unlimited Pts - Space Wolves Roster

 

HQ: Wolf Lord 260 pts

Power Armour (Unit Type: Cavalry; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Thunderwolf Mount; Fenrisian Wolf; Frost Weapon x1; Storm Shield x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Independent Character; Rending in CC only)

2 Fenrisian Wolf

 

HQ: Wolf Lord 250 pts

Power Armour (Unit Type: Bikes; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Space Marine Bike; Fenrisian Wolf; Frost Weapon x1; Storm Shield x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Independent Character)

2 Fenrisian Wolf

 

The Thunder Lord is clearly better then the Bike Lord, unsupported. While they have the same amount of attacks, the Thunder Lord is wounding easier with str6. In addition, the Thunder Lord is not limited in movement with his Fenrisian wolves unlike the Bike Lord. The real difference comes when equipping each with a weapon that doubles str. Without Saga of the Bear for either, the Thunder Lord is insta-killing the Bike Lord and surviving the return attacks due to having true toughness 5.

 

For only 10 more points, I am going with a Thunder Lord.

[TiguriusX]

This is an interesting discussion on the viability of a thunder wolf lord list at 1500pts. You have to sacrifice something to make it work at that low point level.

 

I ran a few variations and IMO the troops have to be sacrificed in order to retain any sort of balanced force. Very difficult to run a list without adequate fire support so I couldn't drop the LFs. I did trim them by 1 member to free up some points but 12 ML spread among 3 targets is still sufficient. The RP is the only other area to save points but his psyker nullification and COTS are too valuable in a tournament environment.

 

I also went with 2 WGs and a TWC instead of 3 pure WG. The S10 TH, potential number of attacks and wound allocation provide more flexibility than a 3rd WGBL or a possible WL with TH and bear saga. You can mix and match if your style is different b/c points are close.

 

I'll link to the list and post it in the army list section so this thread doesn't get moved

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=202090

 

Here is the summary

 

Optimized Thunder HQ list

-Glaring weakness is only 2 min sized troop choices. Play objectives smart. The list has been tailored so that an opponent focusing on wiping out your troops will suffer from the remainder of your army. LFs provide the long range cover fire and pop open any transports. Ignore heavy armor unless there are no other targets. You can't deal with AV13/14 unless you are using the TLLC or melta weapons.

 

-The 12 fenrisian wolves are expendable. They are also a capable assault unit if ignored.

 

-The wargear wolves are valuable for placement in assault and used to occupy HQs and prevent them from attacking something valuable. A powerhouse HQ will only kill a single wargear wolf and nothing more due to nature of the unit. It might be enough to win and force additional wounds on him due to failed leadship of his retinue etc.

 

-Use the fenrisian wolves as the meat shield to advance....put a WGBL with them for leadship boost and rely on storm caller from RP in the razorback to help with long range heavy weapons.

 

-Put a WGBL with TWC and use one wargear wolf if needed to soak up shots. This is a min sized TWC and they can't afford losses if you want the TH to survive and swing in combat against something serious.

 

-If your opponent focuses on the advancing assault force you have 12 krak missiles and a TLLC hopefully intact

-If your opponent focuses on your minimum sized GH squads you need to focus on tabling them with your assault force and take advantage of the distraction

 

-If your assault force reaches enemy lines in decent shape you can fan out and hit 3-4 enemy units including vehicles using melta bombs. Do whatever it takes to get locked into assault and avoid the mass of short range firepower during enemy shooting phase

 

This is an all or nothing aggressive cavalry list. The WGBL and wolves need to slice through the troops and supporting units. You are relying on a rare combination of I5 and T4/5 in an assault force. Eldar will go before you but hopefully have trouble wounding. Orks may hurt you but hopefully suffer too many losses before attacking due to their initiative.

 

Anything that looks too powerful for your small elite assault forces needs to swallow 12 krak missiles so it doesn't pose a threat