SW in Apoc games

[CainTheHunter]

OK, next sunday we are going to play an Apoc game to conclude the local mini-campaign. The rules are simple - no super heavies, 2500 points per army, 2 HQ slots (4 for SW), no formations, no FOC apart of HQ restrictions, and no special character copies per side. The sides will be - for Loyalists mainly the SM of all colors - Sallies, Ultras, Rampagers, another SW player with troops heavy list, a combined IG and DH (GK) list.

For chaos - demons and CSM of various types. Depending on who will arrive, Tau and Eldar will boost one of the sides.

 

Now, I was thinking what to take. I feel tempted to invest into special characters, which could support me and also affect the battlefield.

Taking Njal in TDA with a host of termies with Arjac upgrade in LRC seems interesting. In total I would put 8 termies including Njal in the LRC, then take mechanised GH squads with Rune Priests, Long Fang pack with TDA cyclon WG, several footslogging dreads - heavy weapon platform LC/ML, PC/DCCW, AC/DCCW, wolf scout pack and maybe some bikers. I was thinking what to take as the 4th HQ and my choice fell to Ragnar in Rhino with GH.

 

Any flaws with this list so far?

[Tau_Guardian]

The trick to apocolypse is that you tend to see more deathstar units as the points mount up. You can meet this with death star units of yor own (such as your najal landraider) or simply spam the basic guys. I would suggest against spam at least a little bit, not that it isn't effective but side can get full quickly and your game will take forever. You are probably looking at a 12 hour gme as it is to get it to any sort fo finished with as many points as you guys have.

 

Speed is the second thing. With a huge battle field like these games tend to have you can get isolated from you friends quickly if you don't watch it. And two armies on one rarely ends well for the one. So speed lets you keep with your friend's armies, so you can all protect each other.

 

Also for the fourth HQ, if you have it add a runepriest. Unlimited range on a huge board is not to be laughed at. Just find a tall thing in the back, and blast away.

[jeremy1391]

i have found drop pods are amazing in Apoc!!!! nothing like bringing a huge army to bear on turn one.

 

careful planning plus drop pod assault is awesome!

 

half your reserves come in on turn one from careful planning, and since your army is in drop pods half come in on turn one from DP assault =)

 

its a truly amazing way to get 6 squads of grey hunters 2 ven dreads and 3 5 man squads of WG termies all up in your opponents business!!!!!

[krewl]

your idea is good, but I'd say you get 50% of your pods because of droppod assault, and then 50% of your reserves (The other pods) for a total of 75% of your pods on turn 1 and the rest in turn 2. Still not to shabby, but not all in turn 1.

 

Ragnar should not ride in a rhino, if he rides (and he should) he should be in a landriader so he can get the charge on something. In apoc, with him stepping out a rhino he should be all to tempting a target for Strength D weapons, and other artillery or just bulk of fire weapons. so he should ride up, and charge the turn he get's out. Apoc is so killy hiding in a squad of 9 is not going to last him one turn unless you're really lucky.

 

Njal can be ok, but be reminded to know that his Lord of the tempest will not do a lot in apoc, as most apoc games do not last very long. (And your game looks to be big and thus slow) so if you only make turn 3 he won't hurt a lot, and turn 1 at least he's in a LRC, so when is he going to use his psychic powers... Then he get's out for CC and you find out he's not very good in CC, and no CC boosting powers either.. I think Njal works well in certian lists in normal 40k (See my wolfwing topic for example near the end.) but not in apocalypse here.

 

For those same points (almost) you could get Logan Grimnar, who can boost a squad a lot in either CC or for other things, and his living legend and high king rules are great. again you'll have a deathstar, which could actually hit HARD in CC.

 

Also wolf lords on thunderwolf mounts shine in apocalypse, they actually have a place to chop and chop all day in a good apocaypse battle.

 

Also you'll need firepower, so I'd suggest long fangs, that or drop pod wolf guard with combi weapons. (Only combiweapons if you suicide. 3 meltashots on a tank and their gone.) or 5 men WGT's in a pod (Again still with the combimelta's and 1 or 2 fists. )

Alternatively 10 men, or 9 with a character dropping from a pod will also be scary in enemy line, forcing them to turn inwards, buying your other troops (and allies) time to close the disatance in your transports.

 

pods work best in huge numbers in apocaypse as so much will shoot them they tend to drop and die afterwards, but then they at least shot, to try to go for suiciders here and there to add to the carnage, and some hardy units for forlow up damage.

 

The trick is then to maximise local damage, so you minimize return fire/charges, so perhaps some units will live to charge something in T2. Just count on removing whole squads in great numbers, that's part of apocalypse. ^_^

[CainTheHunter]

Thanks guys! I underlooked the issue with Ragnar in the Rhino... About Njal - his side effects still work even if he is in LRC- just as the non-shooting powers, don't they? I don't expect the game to be over 6 turns, since one turn will probably be more than 1,5 h - never played Apoc before. I'd like to take Logan, TWC and lots of pods, but the home rule is - no proxies and I have only one pod, and absolutely no TWC. I've made a list so far, but I sort of overstretched the points and now I am facing my three dreads being out of the list because of huge point sink.

I have to decide which of these will go out of the list - Whirlwind, Arjac as one of WG, wolf scouts, land speeder MM/HF or dreads - I could take three of them, or maybe Njal... Which one of them has low priority for Apoc - I've taken into consideration Njal, but right now I don't want to put him aside yet - still have time till Sunday.

Of course I can also take some strong hitting units and fill the rest with Basilisks and Leman Russ BT - the home rules allow that, but I wanted to be 100% wolfy ^_^

 

Which powers would be the best for Rune Priests in Apoc? I intend to field at least two of them - Living Lightning seems a must on both, because of unlimited range. Tempest's Wraith also seems appealing, because there will be Demons and we don't know whose side will take Eldar and Tau. Maybe the Storm Caller for the second priest as his second power and Master of Runes on both?

[Ikken]

what about rune priests with chooser of the slain . if you spammed 4 of them with living lightning and murderous hurricane ( mic up their other war gear ) you could really make life hard on your opponents and save some of you allies . and they would be able to affect the game very early on.

 

good luck , sounds like a fun game .

any chance you can click off some pics and post a battle report ?

[CainTheHunter]

I only have three RP models, one of them actually being the old Njal model and one is in TDA - so that makes things easier for differentiating wargear. Actually, seems interesting - I could still take Ragnar as the 4th HQ and put him with WG termies in LRC instead of Njal. I will try to make some pics but I am not very keen towards making detailed bat rep for an 6-8 hours game :jaw:

 

Update - I've been told that Eldar will play against us, so would it be better to field the Runic Armor version of Njal in a Rhino with GH just for shutting down their powers at 3+, and then Ragnar and Wolf Priest in LRC with 7 termies?

[Ikken]

actually if you wanted to be really mean , you could give all 3 master of the runes , and then you would be getting off 6 psychic attacks every turn . between chooser of the slain messing up their deep striking , 3 runic weapons messing up their close in psychic abilities and 6 psychic attacks a turn popping off ,they will have a rough time getting mobile early and if they target your rune priests it buys time for the rest of your units . to get stuck in .

:woot:

[CainTheHunter]

Yes, but Eldar will take that nasty "now you test for every psychic power on 3 dices" thingy - of course I could still shut down their casting, but that could be done with one RP or Njal maybe...

[Matt D]

dont forget those runic weapons are great against deamons as well. 2+ is nothing to lagh at when facing a prince.

[Godhead]

ARJAC!!!!!!! Put him in the crusader with ragnar. Str 10 is awesome sauce. On the charge you are looking at 4+d3 attacks. Not to mention the free str 10 shot before the charge that hits on a 2.

[commander alexander]

Amassed thunderwolf cavalry! Haha, just kidding, I think amassed drop pods, and everything in reserve would be a good idea in general IMO.

[Darwinsfolly]

I've been spending a lot of time on IG boards recently because I'm considering starting an IG army, so let me advise you this: get in contact with the IG/GK player and work your lists so that they complement each other.

 

I can tell you just from the fact that he is IG/GK that his list is most likely based on deep strike denial. He will probably bring an Inquisitor with 2+ mystics, allowing him to nominate a nearby friendly unit to shoot out of turn at a nearby unit of Demons or deep strikers before the enemy unit takes any action. Since you said that there are no FOC limitations other than HQ slots, ask the IG player to bring as many heavy guns, tanks, artillery as he can fit in his list and you will provide the infantry to support and guard his stuff. Have him bring his inquisitor (or two or three, for wider coverage), while you bring Njal and at least 2 Rune priests. With those leaders, you have Njal's weather effects + Rune Priests & Tempest's Wrath/Murderous Hurricane + Inquisitor anti-deep strike lolz for a very effective area denial team. That essentially leaves your enemies no choice other than to footslog or mech through your area of the board. However, all of the heavy weapons in the IG army should pop most mech within range, while your SW are there to charge in and clean up footsloggers.

 

On another note, ask him to bring at least one Master of the Fleet model (if he has any officer-looking models, that'll work fine enough to represent them). Even one MotF will modify all enemy reserve rolls by -1, adding an additional kink to the Demons and any other enemy units held in reserve. Two works better in case one is killed.

 

By working in tandem with this player, you combine the strengths of both armies (SW heavy troops and melee + Guard heavy weapons and tanks) while eliminating most of the weaknesses. Also, just ask him not to bring Grey Knights if he wouldn't mind. If there is even one unit of Grey Knights on the board, all demons gain the Without Number special rule, basically giving your enemy 2500pts of constantly regenerating troops. Inquisitors and Storm Troopers are fine, but if any of his units are specifically listed as Grey Knights, then the demons will just keep coming and never stop.

 

Also, try and talk your other teammates into targeting the Eldar Farseers (there should be at most 2) first, that frees up all friendly psykers to attack freely rather than acting as fancy psychic hoods.

[TopToffee]

Ragnar, Arjac and 6 other Wolf Guard Terminators (with Wolf Claws) in a Land Raider Crusader please... then go munch some face.

 

You might as well go for "super units" since you mentioned the other SW player on your side is going troop heavy.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Ragnar, Arjac and 6 other Wolf Guard Terminators (with Wolf Claws) in a Land Raider Crusader please... then go munch some face.

 

You might as well go for "super units" since you mentioned the other SW player on your side is going troop heavy.

Also ask your Guard friend to include a Vindicare assassin if at all possible. They are the best thing in the World to deal with Eldar Farseers...Since they can pick them out of the crowd and pop them. the two Mystic set up along with an acolyte to absorb an extra wound on the inquisitor is a very good idea and does wonders. its only a 4D6" range though,so you would want to have them spread out to increase the chances. Also...if they are close enough together..multiple nominations for the same target. If he wanted to go all out...he could set them up in one unit every 12 inches,and having them playing cover for gun batteries which could then blast the Deep strikers when they arrive. Or if you had Long fangs with ML standing by them then he could nominate your guys to blast them.

I have been playing with a Inqisitor Lord (to field a Vindicare) and so have gotten all sorts of practice in combining them with Space Wolves lol.

[CainTheHunter]

You might as well go for "super units" since you mentioned the other SW player on your side is going troop heavy.

 

I saw one of his "fun" lists today... Since the FOC is cancelled, he included 46 PA Lone wolves with MotW... I hope he was kiddin'.

 

The IG/GK player also wanted to field 4 HQ :P - maybe he will be allowed that. He intends to bring Creed, GKGM, Inquisitor Lord with two assassins - probably from two different temples, Brother Captain Stern or Commissar Lord. Its difficult to get in touch with him, cause he actually lives in another country lol - going over here for a weekend :D

[Darwinsfolly]

With Creed and a Commissar Lord, it sounds like he is either going for a guardsmen swarm list, or he is using those two to provide Ld10 to his heavy weapon squads for tons of orders.

 

Hopefully, he'll realize that with all the power armor on the field he's better off bringing the big guns and heavy tanks rather than a guardsmen swarm because the big guns are things the SM can't do as well. Also, hopefully he'll realize that his Grey Knights are giving your enemy endless swarms. I don't know if you said exactly how many Demon armies were coming, but a constantly regenerating pool of 5000 or even 2500 pts will make your battle tougher since you'll then be forced to kill the same units over and over again, and most of you won't have all the cool anti-demon powers the GK's have.

[LoneSniperSG]

Not to be a total jerk, but.. the better question is what CAN'T you take?

 

I say spam. Bring out all the infantry you can muster. Then bring out allll the vehicles you can muster. Cram as much into that 2500 as you can.

 

 

Can I ask one thing though? Is this a small store hosting this game? Because half of the awesomeness of Apocalypse as I know it is not allowed. I don't really even see the point of calling it Apocalypse. Must be some strict storytelling.

[CainTheHunter]

Guys, I really appreciate all Your replies :( Thanks for Your input and interest - that is why I like the Fang so much!

 

It's not a store - we don't even have one GW store in our country :). Its our local wargaming club. We can't take superheavies and apoc formations. All the rest is allowed. Is this rule "Without numbers" specific for Apo or a kind of formation? If yes, then I think the Daemon player will not be allowed to use that. Also the GK/IG player will be more GK oriented since that is his main army - finaly all his elites and HQ will be GK, while HS and Troops will be 50/50.

Apart of some specific home rules about armies synergy ect - like Eldar cannot cast Fortune on non-eldar troops, IG cannot issue commands to non-IG units, etc, in all else we will be using the Codex: Apocalypse.

Since no proxies are allowed, I am stuck with what I have in my hands. I am going towards the deathstar in LRC with Ragnar, Wolf Priest and 6-7 WG termies with Arjac. I am still thinking about Njal in TDA going with them, or just taking 2 common Rune Priests. 3 GH squads in Rhinos with WG leaders and full kit, Whirlwind, Long Fangs with TLLC Razorback, Land Speeder with MM, Wolf scouts and 1-2 dreads (I was thinking about making them venerable). Since with this I am actually already running over 2500 points, I was thinking about dropping Land Speeder, Whirwind and maybe something else.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Guys, I really appreciate all Your replies :D Thanks for Your input and interest - that is why I like the Fang so much!

 

It's not a store - we don't even have one GW store in our country ;). Its our local wargaming club. We can't take superheavies and apoc formations. All the rest is allowed. Is this rule "Without numbers" specific for Apo or a kind of formation? If yes, then I think the Daemon player will not be allowed to use that. Also the GK/IG player will be more GK oriented since that is his main army - finaly all his elites and HQ will be GK, while HS and Troops will be 50/50.

Apart of some specific home rules about armies synergy ect - like Eldar cannot cast Fortune on non-eldar troops, IG cannot issue commands to non-IG units, etc, in all else we will be using the Codex: Apocalypse.

Since no proxies are allowed, I am stuck with what I have in my hands. I am going towards the deathstar in LRC with Ragnar, Wolf Priest and 6-7 WG termies with Arjac. I am still thinking about Njal in TDA going with them, or just taking 2 common Rune Priests. 3 GH squads in Rhinos with WG leaders and full kit, Whirlwind, Long Fangs with TLLC Razorback, Land Speeder with MM, Wolf scouts and 1-2 dreads (I was thinking about making them venerable). Since with this I am actually already running over 2500 points, I was thinking about dropping Land Speeder, Whirwind and maybe something else.

Without numbers is the one downside to playing a Grey knight army against Demons...everytime they die,they instead go into reserve and can come back on. or maybe its they just come back on the table at the end of the turn.

[Darwinsfolly]

The "Without Numbers" rule I was talking about is specifically listed in the Daemonhunters Codex under Grey Knights special rules and is actually called "Daemonic Infestation". To specifically address it, it says that ONLY Daemon Packs, Nurglings and Daemoninc Beast Packs may re-spawn as if using the Sustained Attack scenario.

 

Now that I've gone back and re-read it, it shouldn't be as bad as what I previously was trying to suggest. I tried looking through GW's FAQ's to clarify which units counted for this rule, but couldn't find anything. Basically, I think it means that any of the Daemon player's units in the Troops FOC may be respawned, no greater daemons, no elites, no fast attack and no heavy support, just Troops. Also, once a daemon troops unit has been killed, it can only re-enter from the player's board edge, so it loses the deepstrike ability, and a respawned unit can no longer claim objectives or table quarters. Now it has to footslog all the way across an apocalypse board.

[CainTheHunter]

Yeah I know about Daemonic infestation, and was actually thinking if that was meant by "without numbers" - thanks for clearing this up, anyways :blush: I think it will be quite long, but fun game!

[CainTheHunter]

OK, its over now. We had 30'000 on the table, 15'000-per side :huh:. It took together 8 hours and we finished after turn 4. Had three standard tables. We had the first turn, since we bid to deploy in 2 minutes! - and we actually did this, since most of the troops were in transports.

We had some specific home rules and victory conditions - like getting additional VP for countering enemy psychic powers, elimination 4 tanks/walkers etc. Since it ended when both sides controlled/contested equal number of objectives, we managed to win by 2 VP for these special missions.

Wolf scouts were awsome as usual - they came out on turn 1 and stripped Tau Hammerhead from all its weapons. Then they charged Kroots with Hounds and dispatched them shortly afterwards - though only one scout and pack leader survived. They then scared away nearby Eldar tanks and tried to kill some Pathfinders but were too slow and actually were just running around the rest of the game - they survived till end. Njal was also awesome - his Lord of Tempests powers took out several ork transports. That was awesome since we failed to kill Farseer and did not cast anything.

I also made a tactical mistake and deployed far too on the right flank - I spent half of the game guarding our objective from ork threat and my deathstar Land Raider did not saw any much action :(. Since the center was soon stuck with immobilsed Rhinos/Land Raiders etc I was also unable to get there to throw some punch, so I mainly played as deterring force on the right flank.

Long Fangs was another star unit - I managed to deploy them high on the ruins and together with CML WG they were putting out 7 missiles each turn. They took out several Rhinos, a bunker with Obliterators, put two wounds on Tzeentch daemon which was then rapid-boltered by GH squad from allied SW player.

At the end things started to look a bit grim, since the enemy reserves (daemons ork kommandos) started to came out behind our lines but we were able to repel them - Long Fangs sitting high above were putting down salvos of missiles. The only mistake - but I was unable to prevent it - was a small bunch of daemonettes which appeared near my objective, ran remaining 3" and denied this objective for me. I was prepared to rapid-bolter them down, the game was declared to end.

Another interesting moment - in order to deny an easy entry on the table I parked two Rhinos full with GH packs on the table edge. Orks were able to came out and one big squad of them disembarked and basically surrounded the first Rhino. They were unable to destroy it - then I'd have to remove the whole pack, since I had no place for emergency dismembarkation - he just immobilised it. The pack from the second Rhino came out and wiped out the whole ork squad without taking any casualties. Shooting with pistols, then charging and making use of Wolf Standard was just brutal. I also managed two times to pull out 8 attacks with MotW models :P

 

Update with pics

[Natanael]

Nice large battle. You made me want to play apoc =D

 

- Natanael

[CainTheHunter]

Nice large battle. You made me want to play apoc =D

 

- Natanael

 

 

7 Land Raiders on our side - can't say about Rhinos chassis vehicles, but approximately 20 B). It was big :eek