Furioso Librarian...Immobilized?

[thade]

This came up tonight, and we had no solution. Here's the scenario:

 

Furioso Dreadnought with the Wings of Sanguinus psychic power. Suffers an immobilized result; can't move, run, or assault (as it can't move).

 

Can it fly?

 

Psychic test = he moves like Jump Infantry. Jump Infantry cannot be immobilized. @_@ He still can't assault (which really restricts his usefulness) but he's a front armor 13 objective contester! So can he still fly around?!

 

We ruled that he could, and I used him (armless and legless) to shepherd a falling-back unit off the table. I will feel pretty guilty about it if it turns out we were mistaken (but not too guilty, as the unit had Njal in it...and I hate that guy.)

 

Discuss!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

This came up tonight, and we had no solution. Here's the scenario:

 

Furioso Dreadnought with the Wings of Sanguinus psychic power. Suffers an immobilized result; can't move, run, or assault (as it can't move).

 

Can it fly?

 

Psychic test = he moves like Jump Infantry. Jump Infantry cannot be immobilized. @_@ He still can't assault (which really restricts his usefulness) but he's a front armor 13 objective contester! So can he still fly around?!

 

We ruled that he could, and I used him (armless and legless) to shepherd a falling-back unit off the table. I will feel pretty guilty about it if it turns out we were mistaken (but not too guilty, as the unit had Njal in it...and I hate that guy.)

 

Discuss!

 

He cannot fly.

 

Suffers an immobilized result; can't move, run, or assault (as it can't move).

 

The power says "He moves as if he had a jump pack". Therefore, if he can move, he can fly.

 

Immobilised means he cannot move. So it doesn't matter if he, when moving, moves like a JP troop, because he is now ineligible to move.

 

Sorry bro :lol:

[thade]

The power says "He moves as if he had a jump pack".

If he had a jump pack...he'd be jump infantry.

 

Yea, I'm out of ideas. Crap.

[Grey Mage]

Yep, this has come up a couple times between Runes of Warding and Tempests Wrath... no moving. Wings doesnt give an exemption.

 

The psychic power fries some of his motivator circuits *shrugs*.

[ShinyRhino]

Yeah, someone was doing this at my LGS, and I was trying to figure out why they were moving an Immobilized Dread. I was a spectator, though, and wasn't going to interrupt their game.

[shatter]

Consensus earlier in the BA forum was his unit type doesn't change. He's still an immobilised walker.

[JamesI]

Consensus earlier in the BA forum was his unit type doesn't change. He's still an immobilised walker.

Yep, by fluff I can see him still being allowed to fly. But not by the RAW.

[Isiah]

I'm going against the grain here I know but here's the counter-argument:

 

By RAW an immobilised result is the manifestation of a hit to a "[...] wheel, track, grav plate, jet or leg." [bRB p61] with no other 'circuitry' / or anything else for that matter listed. Thus it's a mechanical restriction only.

 

Now as far as I'm aware the psychic power requires none of those mechanical items to function. Remember the mention of "jump infantry" is merely an indicator of the type/range/mechanic/gameplay equivalent of the move the psychic power conveys – it is not an indicator of the means by which the dread actually moves (that's done by the power of the warp or some other such majick).

 

So I'd say an immobillised Furioso Librarian could still move by his psychic power, but ONLY by that means.

 

I await the incoming flak :lol:.

 

[bTW I don't own the BA dex so I'm unfamiliar with exact wording – so just basing this answer on previous posts in this topic].

 

Cheers

I

[thade]

"This power is used in the Librarian's Movement phase and lasts for the rest of the turn. It allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack. A Librarian riding a bike that uses the Wings of Sanguinius moves as if he was riding a jet bike."

 

Seems I wasn't so off my rocker after all; thanks Isiah. =)

 

Units with Jump Packs count as Jump Infantry. Jump Infantry can't be immobilised. Back where we started.

[Hellios]

"This power is used in the Librarian's Movement phase and lasts for the rest of the turn. It allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack. A Librarian riding a bike that uses the Wings of Sanguinius moves as if he was riding a jet bike."

 

Seems I wasn't so off my rocker after all; thanks Isiah. =)

 

Units with Jump Packs count as Jump Infantry. Jump Infantry can't be immobilised. Back where we started.

 

But it never says he is jump infantry only that he moves like one... so he is still a vehicle who is immobilized... and what is the description for immobilized? Can no longer move? The fluff description matters not... fluff wise there is no reason that an immobilised eldar falcon would crash... you may have taken out its propulsion rather than its grav engine... rules wise you crash... who here remembers drifting grav tanks!

[thade]

If he moves like Jump Infantry, well..Jump Infantry doesn't take Immobilized results into consideration.

 

Who here remembers when magic/psychic powers in games bent the rules? :)

[stinkenheim]

well lets remember he moves as infantry normally, and infantry don't suffer immobilised results so OMG it means my dread can never be stopped....

 

hope you get the sarcasm in that statement, but i think the fact that there had never been a psychic vehicle before this codex makes it pretty hard for them to write something in the Imobilised rules detailing what would happen in this situation. i mean come on guys, the rules state the vehicle can't move and thne gives an indiction as to why it might not be able to move but its not a definitive list. just because he could fly about doesn't help him if his legs have been fused or his connectors to the lower half of the dread have been blown because he would have no way of controlling his landing and would likely crash or topple over.

[Hellios]

If he moves like Jump Infantry, well..Jump Infantry doesn't take Immobilized results into consideration.

 

Who here remembers when magic/psychic powers in games bent the rules? <_<

 

Chaos lords with wings move as if they were jump-infantry... but are allowed inside transports... which jump infantry don't normally seem to be allowed to do... so I feel this rule allows you to move as if you were one but doesn't make you one... therefore you are still a vehicle and you are immobilised... you can't move fullstop... it makes no difference if you move like infantry/jump infantry/jetbike or skimmer...

[thade]

i mean come on guys, the rules state the vehicle can't move and thne gives an indiction as to why it might not be able to move but its not a definitive list. just because he could fly about doesn't help him if his legs have been fused or his connectors to the lower half of the dread have been blown because he would have no way of controlling his landing and would likely crash or topple over.

 

Were the psyker inside still conscious and the dreadnought itself nothing but a functionless box, why could the psyker not fly the thing around still? RAI I think he's flyin. It certainly makes a lot of fluff-sense.

 

RAW codex rules break BRB rules all the time, so it's none-to-surprising to me that this kind of thing would come up. We've now got the Doom of Mal'entai shooting marines inside of our Rhinos. I think it's okay if our immobile dreads can drag their broken selves around.

[Hellios]

i mean come on guys, the rules state the vehicle can't move and thne gives an indiction as to why it might not be able to move but its not a definitive list. just because he could fly about doesn't help him if his legs have been fused or his connectors to the lower half of the dread have been blown because he would have no way of controlling his landing and would likely crash or topple over.

 

Were the psyker inside still conscious and the dreadnought itself nothing but a functionless box, why could the psyker not fly the thing around still? RAI I think he's flyin. It certainly makes a lot of fluff-sense.

 

RAW codex rules break BRB rules all the time, so it's none-to-surprising to me that this kind of thing would come up. We've now got the Doom of Mal'entai shooting marines inside of our Rhinos. I think it's okay if our immobile dreads can drag their broken selves around.

 

The doom isn't shooting... that is the problem he has his own thing that isn't within the rules... this Libby dread on the other hand doesn't contradict the BBB. Fluffwise I agree he could still fly around even if the dread was damaged... however I do not see any RAI or RAW that implies he may still move if immobilised...

[shatter]

Permissive ruleset requires wings to change unit type (to jump infantry) so that immobilised result becomes irrelevant. The rule does not change unit type. An immobilised result vs vehicles stops them moving whether they can fly or not.

[thade]

Permissive ruleset requires wings to change unit type (to jump infantry) so that immobilised result becomes irrelevant. The rule does not change unit type. An immobilised result vs vehicles stops them moving whether they can fly or not.

 

Still playing devil's advocate here.

 

I'd thought we'd established in this forum - many times now - that WH40k really isn't a "permissive ruleset".

 

The psychic power doesn't require anything relevant to the dread to function; jump infantry doesn't take into account immobilized results. His type isn't changed, per se, but for the purposes of moving it seems to be (for the rest of the turn) that his type *is* changed. Units with a jump pack count as Jump Infantry, and the power grants him a jump pack for the rest of the turn.

 

I think I may have to lay my hand down now and hope for an FAQ. This one is cheeky.

[Grey Mage]

Thade, hes not Jump Infantry, hes a vehicle. Im all for wings giving him a 12" move that ignores terrain et all, but when it comes down to it this is the important part:

 

BRB pg. 61

4 Damaged - Immobilised

The vehicle has taken a hit that has crippled a wheel, track, grav plate, jet or leg. It may not move for the rest of the game. An immobilised vehicle may not turn in place but its turret may continue to rotate to select targets, and other weapons retain their normal arc of fire.

 

As a vehicle, no matter how it moves, it cannot ignore the simple and straight forward fact that an immobilized vehicle cannot move. The ability to move as if he had a jump pack doesnt grant him the ability to ignore his inability to move at all.

[thade]

Yeah, alright. I give up. haha. <3

 

I didn't think it did, honestly, but sometimes you need to push a ticket to really see that it's clearly wrong. Thanks, all.

[Brother_Dan'l]

End the tyranny of RAW! At least until the folks at GW learn how to write codex entries that take into account any and all obvious interactions with the basic rules set. ;)

 

Honestly people what's wrong with magic moving the stupid armored box across the table? You're all able to accept the conjuring of daemons and living fungi with bad attitudes and using plasma weapons that overheat once every six shots ("Take this revolver that explodes at least once before you need to reload." " ^_^ you! I'm not using that!") and all the other bits of foolishness that go into this game, but not psychic power moving an "immobilized" dreadnought?

[stinkenheim]

its nothing to do with the tyranny of RAW, if a vehicle can't move it can't move regardless of what method that movement would take.

the power doesn't change its unit type from Walker to Jump Infantry, it simply offers a different way of moving it should you chose. also the power doesn't mention anything about it being able to be used should the drednaught be unable to move for whatever reason.

to play it otherwise is at best being loose with the rules, at worst cheating.

[Frosty the Pyro]

End the tyranny of RAW! At least until the folks at GW learn how to write codex entries that take into account any and all obvious interactions with the basic rules set. :P

 

Honestly people what's wrong with magic moving the stupid armored box across the table? You're all able to accept the conjuring of daemons and living fungi with bad attitudes and using plasma weapons that overheat once every six shots ("Take this revolver that explodes at least once before you need to reload." " :cuss you! I'm not using that!") and all the other bits of foolishness that go into this game, but not psychic power moving an "immobilized" dreadnought?

 

Its not so much that there's a problem with a psychic power moving it when its imobalize, but landing would be kind of difficult, trying to land without landing gear is basicly an automatic penitrating hit.

[Grey Mage]

For the record, this forum is entirely about the tyranny of the rules. If you dont like it, go to amicus.

 

Im closing this thread. If you feel theres something pressing to say you can PM me and Ill consider reopening it.