Tac vs AS vs DC for a Razorback team

[Lithanial]

Assuming Astorath as your HQ; what do you think is the better small sized troops squads for razorback teams? Options as follows.

----

1, 6 Tactical marines [161 points basic]

 

Pros

 

- Scoring unit

- Can take a combi-weapon

- Able to hang back and shoot out to 24"

 

Cons

 

- Paying for a missile launcher and flamer that you do not get

- Mediocre drive-by fire power leaves them vulnerable to counter assault

 

2, 6 Bolter Death Company [175 points basic]

 

Pros

 

- Able to unload from a transport and still shoot to 24"

- Able to shoot and charge

- Feel no pain & Furious charge

- Access to special pistols

 

Cons

 

- Not scoring

- Rage

 

3, 6 Assault Death Company [175 points basic]

 

Pros

 

- Exceptionally strong on the charge

- Feel no pain & Furious charge

- Access to special pistols

 

Cons

 

- Unable to do effective drive-bys

- Fairly useless if the transport gets neutralised

- Not scoring

- Rage

 

4, 6 Assault marines [138 points basic]

 

Pros

 

- Cheap!

- Access to special weapons and pistols

- Scoring

 

Cons

 

- Limited drive-by potential dependant on special weapon

- Fairly useless if the transport get neutralised

- Lacks the numbers, durability or weight of attacks to be truly effective in assault

----

 

I am actually leaning strongly towards bolter DC with a power weapon & special pistol sarge - especially since they can be used as a tac squad instead if i need more scoring units. what are your thoughts?

[biglou666]

i would always go for tac squad. they are the most reliable, and with assault marines, you are forgoing that good shooting for just 1 extra attack each.

 

what i think is quite funny is that you can take a three man dc with j-packs in a razorback. 6 model limit? no problem :P

i might try a triple t-hammer jp dc in an lc razorback. (nice and juicy anti tank hit squad)

but yeah, in most games id do tac squad.

[Brother Ulkesh]

what i think is quite funny is that you can take a three man dc with j-packs in a razorback. 6 model limit? no problem :P

 

:P I didn't think models with a JP could ride in a transport (except Stormraven).

[Machnarl]

Well, of course it depends on its uses, but I would prefer the Assault Squad. That meltagun or flamer is invaluable.

 

But again it is a matter of taste.

[jimbo1701]

Depend on the role you want them for. If you have other scoring units in your army and are not using the team for objective holding then use bolter DC with a PW/fist in there. More staying power and cheaper than adding a priest to either of the other options. (Bolter DC Vs 2CCW DC math-hammer favours bolter)

 

On the other hand if you need the unit to score then I'd go with the assault squad. Extra attack on the charge, 2 special weapons (if you inclue the sarge) and cheaper all round. The tac squad can jump out and do a drive-by rapid fire with bolters/combi-weapon, but that tends to be a one-hit wonder with 6-man squads. Adding a priest in increases your survival chances, but then ups your cost by such an amount that you probably wish you'd taken DC.

 

If you're thinking of running a RB army then I'd do something along the lines of 2 rhinos with full tac squads, 2 RBs with 5-man RAS and priests, 1 RB with 5 bolter DC and reclusiarch. Back this up with a few tanks (Baals, vindis) and you're away. Hope this helps.

[JamesI]

what i think is quite funny is that you can take a three man dc with j-packs in a razorback. 6 model limit? no problem :P

 

;) I didn't think models with a JP could ride in a transport (except Stormraven).

Jump Infantry may not ride in transports, with the exception of the Stormraven since the Stormraven's rules specifically allow it.

[biglou666]

Jump Infantry may not ride in transports, with the exception of the Stormraven since the Stormraven's rules specifically allow it.

 

hmm, thats odd, i was always under the impression that jump packs could ride in tranports but count as 2 models?

or is that just termies in raiders...?

[JamesI]

Jump Infantry may not ride in transports, with the exception of the Stormraven since the Stormraven's rules specifically allow it.

 

hmm, thats odd, i was always under the impression that jump packs could ride in tranports but count as 2 models?

or is that just termies in raiders...?

That's just terminators in raiders. BRB states that only Infantry may ride in transports.

[biglou666]

ok. thanks for clearing that up! :)

(no mega antitank hit squad for me then :P )

[Burningblood]

Op-

I think the trick is to mass razorbacks in general if you're going to use them at all.

If you have two or better yet three that you can throw at your opponent, it will be harder to handle them- you then have three heavily armed, fast transports that he absolutely will have to deal with. especially if you're combat squading.

[lorider2]

Assuming Astorath, small teams and razorbacks in mind it heavily weights the decision towards RAS.

[wookielips]

ran a 2500 pt game last night against codex marines.

 

my list:

 

1xLR(godhammer) ex armor (5 RAS)

1xLRR w MM ex armor (libbie n corb & 5 RAS)

2xRB w TLAssCan (5 RAS each, 1 w flamer)

3xRB w TLLC (2x5 RAS w flamer, 5 RAS got out and held an obj, no flamer, techmarine & 4 servitors got in one at game start)

1xSR TLAssCan/TLMM ex armor (DC n reclusiarch inside :woot: )

 

my opponent had one LRC, one pred annihilator, 3 x landspeeders (1 mm, 1 AssCan, 1 typhoon missle) and a ML in a tac squad.

 

he simply could NOT deal with all the armor and high quality guns i had, even though i made a rookie mistake of shooting las at the LRC turn one.

[Red Fury]

It depends on the razorback's weapon and the role the squad will fill. And since there are no fire points on a razor I don't think the whole 'drive-by' thing works like it does with a rhino, it's not worth getting out of your armor just to get a measly 9-12 rounds of bolter fire off. Really though, unless you have a CC squad inside ready to go kick some tail, keep them inside, make your opponent work to get the juicy parts out.

 

TAC squads are really hard to justify in a razorback with just a 5-6 man team. If you combat squad a 10 man TAC with a razor then it is more on par with the RAS option. The RAS are really a great option here because of price and the ability to take a special weapon. You may actually get out to fire off a melta gun at some nasty armor that is too close, or to flame some stubborn infantry holed up behind cover (scouts). But for sheer awsomeness I like the razor with TL HvyFlamers with a 5-6 man squad of DC. Give them a PW and a Fist and set them loose.

 

My current 1500 point list has 3 razors; DC with TLHFlamers, and 2x RAS with TLLC.

 

-Fury

[toaae]

Another option is a 10 man tactical squad with a razorback. Combat squad them, leave the heavy weapon out to shoot stuff. That's how I'm using my razorbacks. Plus, it leaves the spot for a Sanguinary Priest, who can then buff anything within 6" of the Razorback.

[foster]

In my current list I'm packing two 5 man Assault Squads with a lightning claw and flamer each transported in two TL Assault Cannon Razorbacks. They make great support units that can fit most support roles; if I need additional firepower I have the Assault Cannon. If I need more men to support another unit in CC I can drop off the Assault Squad and charge them in next turn. Plus I've saved 70pts which is a huge saving.

 

If I was to choose a more shooty squad like the Tactical Squad or Death Company I'd rather have them in squads of 10 to take full advantage of rapid fire, so Rhino's would be the main transport of choice, seconded by Drop Pod.

[Sanguinarian]

Another option is a 10 man tactical squad with a razorback. Combat squad them, leave the heavy weapon out to shoot stuff. That's how I'm using my razorbacks. Plus, it leaves the spot for a Sanguinary Priest, who can then buff anything within 6" of the Razorback.

Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, but how do you buy a 6-seater ride for a 10-man squad? Irregardless of combat squadding or not, isn't this an intentional abuse/misuse of the RAW? Along this train of thought, why couldn't I buy 2 Razors for my 10-man? Again, not pointing at anyone but many at the same time. :D

[Isryion]

Another option is a 10 man tactical squad with a razorback. Combat squad them, leave the heavy weapon out to shoot stuff. That's how I'm using my razorbacks. Plus, it leaves the spot for a Sanguinary Priest, who can then buff anything within 6" of the Razorback.

Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, but how do you buy a 6-seater ride for a 10-man squad? Irregardless of combat squadding or not, isn't this an intentional abuse/misuse of the RAW? Along this train of thought, why couldn't I buy 2 Razors for my 10-man? Again, not pointing at anyone but many at the same time. :D

 

 

A squad can buy a (not two) dedicated transport. They never are required to use that transport at any time. Conversly, if you buy a rhino, you don't have to put them all in it. I don't think this is in any way a RAW abuse.

[Lithanial]

Issue I have with a combat squad tac loadout is that you have a fair amount of waste in the squad you leave behind and you need to use an IC to actually fill the transport - I HATE waste in an army. If I want a squad of heavy weapons in my back lines I will use a 6 man devastator squad with 3 heavy weapons and razorback. It's all about the right weapons, in the right squads, in the right numbers; well, that and unit redundancy.

 

And it is in unit redundancy that I believe the bolter squads win outright; you should always plan for the what ifs. If your transport is immobilized or destroyed then any squad inside is rendered useless with a full assault loadout whereas with a tactical loadout you have many more options ranging from objective camping through to supporting assaults (remember, Astorath HQ so 50/50 for furious charge). Plus assaulting forces are far better serviced via descent of angels or a storm raven.

 

The main disadvantage with a tactical loadout though is the lack of targeting redundancy which the assault squads inevitable melta gun brings. DC tacticals are great at destroying troops and being a general nuisance but are next to useless against a vehicle since they need to get within point blank range while being easily diverted due to rage. Tacticals however have a little more flexibility with a combi-weapon and melta-bomb access but at the expense of durability and assault potential.

 

This leads me to the conclusions that a Tac razorback squad is the optimum choice for pelting targets at 12-24" where they are less vulnerable while the DC tacs are more optimum for getting stuck in.

 

This would lead to the following 2 loadouts.

---

6 Tactical Marines w/ Combi-weapon, melta bombs & Razorback. [176pts]

OR

6 Tactical Death Company w/ Power weapon, plasma (or Infernus) pistol & Razorback [205pts]

---

 

The questions then become, what combi-weapon and what equipment on the Razorback? The default heavy bolter is easily the better weapon option, being useful even when immobilized but would a storm bolter or hunter killer be worthwhile to increase firepower/flexibility? The hunter killer probably is - combine it with a combi-melta/plasma and the melta bombs and you have a relatively decent anti-tank potential.

[Isryion]

Issue I have with a combat squad tac loadout is that you have a fair amount of waste in the squad you leave behind and you need to use an IC to actually fill the transport - I HATE waste in an army. If I want a squad of heavy weapons in my back lines I will use a 6 man devastator squad with 3 heavy weapons and razorback. It's all about the right weapons, in the right squads, in the right numbers; well, that and unit redundancy.

 

And it is in unit redundancy that I believe the bolter squads win outright; you should always plan for the what ifs. If your transport is immobilized or destroyed then any squad inside is rendered useless with a full assault loadout whereas with a tactical loadout you have many more options ranging from objective camping through to supporting assaults (remember, Astorath HQ so 50/50 for furious charge). Plus assaulting forces are far better serviced via descent of angels or a storm raven.

 

The main disadvantage with a tactical loadout though is the lack of targeting redundancy which the assault squads inevitable melta gun brings. DC tacticals are great at destroying troops and being a general nuisance but are next to useless against a vehicle since they need to get within point blank range while being easily diverted due to rage. Tacticals however have a little more flexibility with a combi-weapon and melta-bomb access but at the expense of durability and assault potential.

 

This leads me to the conclusions that a Tac razorback squad is the optimum choice for pelting targets at 12-24" where they are less vulnerable while the DC tacs are more optimum for getting stuck in.

 

This would lead to the following 2 loadouts.

---

6 Tactical Marines w/ Combi-weapon, melta bombs & Razorback. [176pts]

OR

6 Tactical Death Company w/ Power weapon, plasma (or Infernus) pistol & Razorback [205pts]

---

 

The questions then become, what combi-weapon and what equipment on the Razorback? The default heavy bolter is easily the better weapon option, being useful even when immobilized but would a storm bolter or hunter killer be worthwhile to increase firepower/flexibility? The hunter killer probably is - combine it with a combi-melta/plasma and the melta bombs and you have a relatively decent anti-tank potential.

 

I like and run a very similar death company (6 man, PF+PW), but they are one single unit and I certainly don't take them with bolters.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with a Tac Squad in a razorback, but I think the beauty of the Tac Squad is 10 men and a long range weapon. I'd actually consider the 6 man squad the waste. not in terms of space but in terms of points. You're not really taking advantage of what makes tactical squads cost effective. Another reason I prefer the rhino for tacticals is the protection and the ability to fire your weapons from inside it.

 

The advantage of an Assault squad in a razorback is that it is cheap -- it doesn't have the effective range of tacticals (but then they don't have any range either when they are in the Razor) and they don't hit as hard as the DC but they're a nice mix for cheap. As others have said, it ultimately depends on your army.

[Captain Psycho]

I love this post because I've been working on a small squad 1,000 point list for a while now and after changing it about a hundred times I think I've settled on something close to Red Fury's:

 

5 DC + Reclusiarch in RB w/ TLHF

2 x 5 ASM w PW, MG + Sang Priest in RB w/ TLAC or TLLC

10 Tacs w/ PF, MG, ML or MM in Rhino

 

In putting this list together I've read a lot on bolter and chainsword and other forums about tactics and roles of small troop squads which I think is relevant to this thread.

 

As pointed out in several replies above the 6 man tac squad is a bad idea as you lose the weapon options. I'm keeping mine in a rhino because I want to use them as an objective holding mobile bunker and for that you need the rhino's fire points. If I want to combat squad them to hold two objectives or for long range fire support I still can, the rhino gives me more tactical flexibility than a RB would.

 

For RB ASMs, the key to making the most of them is 1) upgrading the weapons on the RB and 2) redundancy so your opponent either spreads out his AT fire or can not deal with all of your RBs before they've done some damage. I'm going to magnetize my RB turrets so I can switch between TLLC (for IG and Tau) and TLAC for every thing else (not sure yet about Eldar, AV12 transports might require TLLC even though the TLACs are rending). The ASMs are really in a support role in this set up, in most cases my troops will be outnumbered so I need to use my mobility to avoid cc while reducing his numbers then assault out of the RBs when it is advantageous to do so. Don't forget the sang priest, makes the small squad much more durable and deadlier if they get their charge off first.

 

That leaves the 5 man DC, which is generally regarded as a poor choice due to point cost and rage. In my case I added them mostly because I love the fluff and the models (I plan on making a black RB with forge world DC doors and TL heavy flamers from the baal pred sprue). I do think that if you are going to include DC in your list that you must use them as assault troops (otherwise you are wasting that WS5) and with a chappy or reclusiarch (or Astorath as your HQ) for re-rolls on failed to wound throws. Obviously the big drawback is rage, but in a mech list you should be able to provide the DC's transport enough cover with your RBs/Rhinos/Baals/Preds (and your opponent enough higher priority targets) to get them to their initial target. I plan to use mine to tie up big cc threats like genestealers (on the charge only of course). The DC will take heavy losses (see how it comes back to the fluff) but in the meantime the ASM squads can ride around in their RBs wiping out my opponent's fire support / objective holding troops before assaulting whatever my DC tied up.

 

There is one other RB unit that I've been thinking of mixing in which I haven't seen in many lists - Libby w/ Honor Guard in RB. They won't hit as hard as DC but with the libby's shield of sanguinius they have a better chance of reaching their target without additional cover and with unleash rage they get to reroll misses in cc (plus another sang priest - albiet one with weaker ws). I haven't painted my DCs yet so I could convert them to HG with the addition of some bitz from the command squad box (the one DC head that looks like a knight's helmet would make an awesome looking champion, very similar to the BT special model). Any thoughts on which would be better all-around (DC + Rec or Libby + HG)? I would only do one or the other in 750 - 1,000 points. What's the optimal load out of a Libby HG squad? How could they be used tactically (if it is just for assault the DC squad would appear to be a better choice but I could be wrong)?