Tell Me All About......

[Bannus]

TELL ME ALL ABOUT...

The Way of the Water Warrior


I refer you to this article as the foundation and introduction of the different ways to play Space Marine armies and this thread as an example of how I would like it to progress (except as it relates to Codex Space Marines instead of Grey Knights).

You may also find this thread helpful as well.


We want to know all about the water elemental combat style as it apply to Codex Space Marines. There are several different army types that can fit within each of these themes - let's explore them all. As with all of these threads, we want to keep the discussions focused and on topic. The more we stray or ask off-topic questions, the harder it is going to be for our volunteer editors to sift through the material and put together a concise article. Unnecessary posts will be deleted for clarity.

In this topic (as with all of them), we want to focus on those aspects that only apply to any Space Marine army.

Let the discussion begin............

[Grey Mage]

A balanced force where each unit can handle multiple enemy unit types and the army as a whole includes fast, sturdy, and killy elements. A good mix of anti-infantry and anti-tank firepower, with some CC ability.

 

The tactical squad is a very good example of this philosophy. Example:

 

10 Tactical Marines- Missile Launcher, Plasma Rifle, Powerfist, Rhino- 240pts.

 

The rhino provides speed as needed to get your troops where they need to be, or provides cover to increase their durability against incoming enemy firepower. The missile Launcher and Plasma Rifle increase their general utility against Heavy Infantry, Light Vehicles, and certainly dont hurt their ability to take on enemy hordes at range- supported by the strong profile of 8 bolters. The powerfist is capable of hurting anything in the game at S8, adding a bit of CC punch, and giving a backup tank killer.

 

No matter what strategy your opponent has in mind, squads like this can throw a wrench in the gears. Combining that speed and good all around offense with the T 4 and 3+ save of a marine for staying power means that you should have the opportunity to use them. Is the enemy an assault based army, such as horde-o-orks or Khornate Beserkers from the warp? Stand and shoot good friend. Are they sitting back shooting you at range? Back up and hit their flying tanks with your missile launcher, or hop in the rhino and advance forward. Need to get the heck out of dodge, or run to a nearby objective late game? Your rhino is the thing to have.

 

Of course no unit stands alone. Having 6 of these in your list wont make it a 'water' list, though all of those PA bodies would do well as the basis for an earth list. To truely bring forth the best effect you have to look at the list as a whole.

 

Do you have enough firepower? A good mix of anti-biggun and anti-littlun is important too!

Bolters are great against hordes of light enemies, but frankly wont help you against most vehicles. Firepower comes in several types, but the key is to get enough volume of fire to handle large numbers of enemies with enough sprinklings of heavy weaponry to take on vehicles and monstrous creatures, or elite heavy infantry. C:SM thankfully excells in this area with free heavy weapons on tacticals, and a general emphasis on ranged firepower.

 

Melee? Can you handle both the horde of orks and the scythes of carnifexii?

Number of attacks, strength of attacks, the ability to ignore armor. All of this of course comes into play. You need to be able to hurt anything in CC to be a truely versatile assault unit- DCCWs, Powerfists, Thunderhammers are all good ways to go. Sadly, they are far from the only thing needed as number of attacks is often just as important, if not more so, than the hardness with wich they hit. A dreadnaught might be a walking god inside a horde of gaunts, but hes also not going anywhere for a very long time.

 

Durability? Are you tough enough in armor AND numbers to take the hits your going to take?

This comes in three basic types- Numbers, Armor, and Superior Positioning. Numbers means things like Tactical Squads where you can get alot of wounds on the field, for the army, relatively cheap. Armor means... good armor. Landraiders, Venerable Dreadnaughts, Iron Clads, Vindicators, Terminators of any stripe.... Superior Positioning is a crossover with speed in many cases, and always involves good generalship- but simply put your opponent cant kill what he cant get a bead on.

 

Speed? Can you get where you need to be? Can you redeploy properly?

Drop Pods provide a good initial sprint, while bikes give consistant excellant speed, and rhinos simply improve the unit they are attached to in a strong, but general, manner. There are benefits to each kind of speed, and again having a mix of them allows you to ensure you have the tools you need for the job you need to do.

 

Every unit should contribute a significant amount of atleast two of these, preferably 3.

 

Of course, each of those things can be achieved in different ways. Example:

 

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts. Brings speed to the table with its 24" move, and the ability to fire while on the move. That double shot missile launcher gives it a flexable punch at range against vehicles and heavy infantry, or a large advantage against hordes. The ability to stay well away from most enemy firepower gives it durability by removing the enemies ability to hurt it. Thus, Speed, Firepower, and Durability.

 

Dreadnaught- Extra Armor, Multimelta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod- 165pts. The DP gives it an initial burst of speed, allowing you to place him exactly where he needs to be to get the job done. MM/HF gives a flexable loadout capable of taking on most unit types in the game, while a DCCW gives a good amount of Melee ability... though not enough to truely excell against all comers. AV 12 walkers are relatively tough to kill, wich provides a good deal of durability. Thus, this unit has all four abilities, but its speed and melee are situational.

 

They key to successful list construction with a 'water warrior' list is to make sure you blend these elements in even amounts, though C:SM allows for the regulation of melee to a secondary consideration. Because its not just about potentially have the tools you need for the job your doing, you also need to have enough of those tools to do it effectively. Unless your in a very small game saying the addition of a single powerfist and two missile launchers to the army is a good way to ensure your ability to kill monstrous creatures is ludicrous, so take the size of the battle into your considerations.

 

If you meditate on balance and use proper forethought then no army can hope to stop you, and no enemy plan can come to fruition while you hold the field.

[minigun762]

In addition to Grey Mage's post, I would like to say that when I hear about a "Water Warrior list", what I first imagine is what I'll call a "counter" army.

 

Take a look at the basic Marine. What we have is a unit that is good at alot of things but not terrific at anything. People who view this in a positive light will explain how Marines are "flexible" or "adaptable" while those that view it negatively will call them "jack of all trades, master of none". Regardless of how you view it, it remains true that Marines can do a little bit of everything pretty well.

 

Now what a good player should try to understand is that you can't use a Marine to beat another armies specialist. Marines will get out-assaulted by Nobz or Berzerkers or Banshees and they will get out-shot by Tau or IG or Lootas but unlike those units Marines have options. Don't play your opponent's game, make him/her play your game by denying his units the ability to function where they are strongest. This really just an extension of "shoot the stabby ones and stab the shooty ones" but its the core of a "counter" list. Build a balanced, adaptable list with the capabilities to handle a variety of targets. Make sure you have some kind of mobility, as movement is key against many armies. Now the important part, once you are about to play a game and find out what your opponent is going to bring, adapt your thinking to find the strengths and weaknesses of their list and play accordingly. By having a balanced list with mobility, you have the option of switching up how you play. Without it, you are forced to play one way all the time against every type of opponent which can be very limiting.

[Bannus]

I've posted a snippit in the other threads from the article I linked to above - better not leave this one out:

 

Water

 

Unlike the other elements, Water fights reactively, responding to the plan of the enemy. Whereas the other elements try to dominate a particular phase, and 'inflict' their plan upon the enemy, Water has no plan other than to defeat the enemy's plan. Good Water armies use well rounded, generalist troops.

 

I could go through the phases, but there is no point, as a Water army requires an opponent in order to truly define itself.

 

Example: A well rounded Ultramarine force.

 

Personal Comment: See below.

 

Why Play Reactively

So why play the Water way? For me there are two reasons, one simple, and one complex.

 

The simple answer is that it is the only style that does not become 'same-ish'. With the other styles you know roughly, before you see the table, or know what army you are facing, what your plan is. In fact, it goes deeper than that. You're locked in. Any deviation from your overall plan weakens your force. Playing your beserkers against the all stealer army? Neither of you really has the option of any tactic but all out assault. Hope you were in the mood for a meat grinder.

 

A Water army, on the other hand, has no plan until it sees it's enemy. And each game is different, depending on the details of your opponent. If you fight the same guy over and over, this won't help, but in a decent sized club, this can keep your interest alive.

 

The more difficult answer is that I am a very 'problem -> solution' type person. Take my painting for example. I have never, EVER, amounted to anything as an artist when presented with a blank canvas, a clean sheet of paper, or a lump of clay. I simply have no idea what to do. But put me in front of a mini, and everything changes. So many problems suddenly arise, needing answers. Colour matches, shading and light sources, fluff accuracy, and more. I can take weeks to painstakingly paint a single trooper. In short, once I am given a context, my artistic side really blossoms.

 

This is true of my martial arts and my war-gaming. I have a hard time formulating battle plans, but when you try something, my brain goes into overdrive, trying to figure out how to stop you.

 

I suspect I'm not alone in that. I think there are others out there just like me. If so, consider the Way of the Water Warrior.

[Grey Mage]

Specialization and Flexibility:

 

While SM codices tend towards being strong generalists it doesnt mean we dont have our specialist units. Assault Marines, Assault Terminators, Blood Claws, Long Fangs, Death Company Dreadnaughts with Blood Talons......

 

These kinds of units have a place in a 'Water' build. While a unit of Assault Marines with a pair of Meltaguns and a Powerfist is certainly more flexable than say the same unit with Flamers and a Powerweapon, they both can have a place in the army as a whole. While adaptable units are key to a WW strategy having strong units in several areas can help strengthen the army as a whole much like a hard yet brittle metal can help alloy a flexable yet soft metal to make a better blade overall.

[DerekLee688]

The felxability of SM codicies extend beyond tacticals. Tyhoons are hot units now because of the wide array of things they are a treat to, basically eveything that isn't AV14 on every facing. This plus a unit of ten tacticals with ML, Fist, and Rhino can pose a serious threat to ANYTHING. Where as obliterators in cover can't really help Bezerkers take out their targets across the board and bezerkers can't help oblits take out heavy armor.

 

My limited collecting and playing has been geared to playing armies composed entirely of fexable units, hopping that every unit being flexable is stronger than an army of specialists or my flexable army is stronger than the other guy's felexable army.

TLAC+HF Dread, Vindi's, Comi Pred, full tactical squads, Plasma/melta bikes, Stern guard, Librarian, Typhoon squadrons and HF/MM Land speeders.

 

With the exception of the pred., all units are fairly mobile which is a plus in building a reactive army such as what Water warrior calls for.

[Justicar Valius]

A unit that is very flexibile is a godhammer landraider. It can be a predartor when you need it to be, it can be an assault tank when you need it, it can take out armour and then use PotMS to fire heavy bolters at infantry.

 

Also it's rather tough as far as tanks go...

[Zynk Kaladin]

I like the explanation about WHY people play water. I noticed, however, the snippets in other topics do not have a "why" section. I think understanding why people play in a certain play style is paramount to understanding the style itself. For example, the "problem -> solution" explanation of a water player's psychology was very helpful at least for me in understanding a water army and its tactics.

[DerekLee688]

The reason I play water is because it is the easiest to collect and maintain, or at least it is in theory.

 

I believe if I played fire style I'd be leaving myself open to armies that would crush mine when newer codexes come out and change how my opponents opporate. For example, if I was a marine melee fire style player, the new nid codex would have made me cringe when playing against it. In reality I didn't have to change my water list, actualy I've valued how my missle launchers have become even more effective aginst carnifexes, more little shrips for frag templates, and less 2+ armor saves for the krak's.

 

Air warrior neglects the heaviest firepower available to make a slower, more armored, less specialized air army. The blood angels codex lookes to remedy this by with fast preds, fast vindi's, deepstriking land raiders, and well armed storm ravens deploying dreds. I'm not collecting them at the moment.

 

And as earth goes, I believe C:SM can only create sub par earth armies because the majority of weapons fielded are 12-24". The prevelance of mechinized, fleet, drop pods, etc. makes 5ed a bad time to run earth in the first place.

[Bannus]

OK. As discussions of the general topic wear down, let's look at the next step:

 

What units would you include in your first 500 points of this style army and - more importantly - why?

[minigun762]

What units would you include in your first 500 points of this style army and - more importantly - why?

 

I would have to say that 2 Tactical Squads in a Rhino. Properly outfitted, you have 2 units that can deal with almost any target, have the mobility to get to where they need to go and the durability to not be instantly wiped out.

 

These are units that are flexible enough to be used in a variety of ways depending on who you are playing against and the mission type. The fact that they're both scoring units is just icing on the cake.

[DerekLee688]

Bare librarian as HQ.

 

Already has power weapon that can Instakill other HQ's.

Can be support, CC, or ranged combat.

Acts as squad's extra special or heavy weapon at no extra cost.

[Grey Mage]

OK. As discussions of the general topic wear down, let's look at the next step:

 

What units would you include in your first 500 points of this style army and - more importantly - why?

C:SM only?

 

Its hard to have much in the way of variety at this points level- do you mean the first 500pts of choices for a larger army, or just a 500pt army?

[Bannus]

When I say "first 500 points" - I am referring to the core of a larger army, but also a viable fighting entity in its own right.

 

Basically, what a player just getting started with this type of army would field in small games, but plans on expanding into a larger force.

[Monkeychunks]

I would go for the Librarian and 2 Tacticals, as has been mentioned.

 

Librarian

Tacticals- 5, Razorback with Las/Plasma, Combi-Weapon

Tacticals- 10, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Power Fist, Rhino

 

505pts

 

I know it's 5pts over, but it its really that tight then you can ditch the Combi-weapon.

 

 

500pts won't buy 2 full Rhino squads, so I would take the Razor instead of one. This list provides you with a fairly hefty amount of firepower, 2 vehicles, and ensures that every model has a transport. It provides a mix of anti-infantry and anti-tank firepower, and also has the range. The Powerfist and Force Sword both provide anti-HQ and anti-gribbly, while the Librarian can work in almost any role.

 

You can form a nasty firebase in cover, you can launch an armoured attack, and you can drive around 'kiting' the enemy. All in all, it provides you with at least 2 tools for every job.

[Cerrik]

I almost feel that trying to work a Water list at 500 pts is basically a waste. At least from my experience. I have read, re-read, and read again Silent Requim's treatese on the Way of the Water Warrior. However, all of my 500 pt games have taken place on a board that is virtually 4x4 or 4x3. Making alot of the tenents of this way a bit of a bust. That is not to say, that playing in a Water style is totally ineffective at the 500 pt level for everyone, just me. So consequintly, my idea for 500 pts would look more like a Fire list.

 

I found myself looking at the above list with the Libby, thinking that a Chaplain would do nicely too. Of course next thought was that a Chaplain is more Fire oriented.

 

I would use Grey Knights.

BC w/ Psycannon

7 PAGK

7 PAGK

I know that there are no transports of any sort here... but as I stated my experience is on a small table, making transport bit of an over kill. Although, I will remark that even on this smal a table, the extra mobility that would come from a transport could make or break you. So I see their usefulness.

[Ookami_81]

That's the problem Bannus, like in all other posts on army types or element gameplay style.

With SM you just do nothing in 500 pts except a naked HQ and two tac squads, one with a transport.

 

IMHO you cannot express any style below 1000 pts. Or at the very least 750 pts and it's really tough...

[RayJ]

I believe that at 1000 points, armies with a gimmick (which will always fall into another army style than water) are going to be where one sees unique elements. 1000 points doesn't give a lot of options for breaking into the water style, but there are more now than there were with the past codex.

 

The water style will actually break into its own at 1500 points and will continue to work up to 2500 with the same general skeletal frame, against most opponents anyway. Unfortunately, at each major point break (1000,1500,2000, 2500) the dynamics of the game shift. The higher up in points you go, the more effective the alpha strike, and the more emphasis an opponent can put in a particular area. Also, you begin to run out of places in the force organization chart for elements that fit your theme.

 

I think the idea of building a 500 (or even 750) point core and working it up at each point bracket is completely against building an appropriate water style list. While a small mechanized force will operate well at that lower point value, they will have fundamentally different challenges to face and will possibly need new means to interact with them as points increase.

 

Instead, let's discuss what options are available at each point level individually. Understanding the environment and what opponents will have reliable access to allows us to mold the list in a water warrior style in the same way we play it on the tabletop.

[minigun762]

I think the 500 point game is an issue for any Power Armor army. Our basic guys and HQs are just too expensive to have the kind of wiggle room you need to really create a unique army.

 

I think 1k we have alot more options and a list can come into its own.

[yodaid764]

I would have to say go with the 5 and 10 man tac squad listed above, but change the Librarian with a Chaplain. He is a bit more survivable.

[Ryjak]

While reading in the B&C Librarium (articles like "Way of the Water Warrior" , "The Astartes Tactical Treatise", "The Reformation of War", and "Reaction, Control, and Warfare") it occured to me that the a Water style is not a "jack of all trades" style. While a Water Army needs a context to define itself, just as liquid always takes the shape of a container, it should not try to emulate a different style based on your opponent. For example, if you're facing an IG Earth army, you shouldn't pretend to be a Fire or Air army to destroy it. Likewise, if you're facing an Air army, you shouldn't pretend to be an Earth army or Fire Army. While this can work (as it has for me) this is a weak way to play Water.

 

Water is formless and fluid. At no point should your opponent be able to look at a Water army and be able to define what it's doing. This starts at the army list. A true Water army should look like a hodge-podge of units, where no unit is "key". When it is placed on the table, your opponent should be scratching his head, trying to figure out your plan. As you play, the entire army should generally be in motion. If your opponent forms a spearhead, the water army should retreat from the attack and redirect itself elsewhere. If your opponent forms a wall, the water army should slowly erode it or flood it. If your opponent scatters, the water army should form bubbles to section and contain it. If your opponent is fluid and formless, you need to dissolve him by absorbing the small bits while flowing around the bigger bits.

 

Oddly, one of the best examples of this kind of Water army is someone who doesn't like the Elemental Philosophy of Strategy. Warp Angel authored his Killhammer philosophy to conceptualize how he takes his opponent apart, bit by bit, to achieve game superiority. Killhammer is the method every Water army should be using to destroy the enemy. Here's an example list:

 

Warp Angels 2000 point Killhammer Water Army

 

HQ - Captain (Bike, Hellfire, Relic Blade)

 

Troop - Tactical x10 (Razorback, Plasma Cannon, Flamer, Powerfist)

Troop - Tactical x10 (Rhino, Multi Melta, Flamer, Powerfist)

Troop - Bike x8 (Attack Bike w/Multi Melta, Meltagun, Flamer, Powerfist)

 

Elite - Assault Terminators x7 (6x TH/SS, 1x Lighting Claws)

Elite - Ironclad Dreadnaught (Drop Pod w/Deathwind, Flamer, Meltagun)

 

Heavy - Vindicator

Heavy - Land Raider Crusader (Multi-Melta)

Heavy - Thunderfire

 

Fast - Land Speeder Typhoon (Heavy Bolter)

 

It's a list that still relies on synergy between different units and concentration of force...

 

As you can see, most people will look at this list and scratch their head as to how exactly it plays. Maybe Warp Angel will come along and explain how he plays with this list, but from his posts, I gather he doesn't have a set "way" of playing. Sometimes the Terminators ride the Land Raider, sometimes they Deepstrike and a Tactical Squad goes inside. Sometimes the Tactical Squads and Bike Squad combat squad, sometimes they don't. Sometimes the whole army starts in Reserves, sometimes only parts of it, sometimes none of it. These choices are all situational for him, entirely dependent on the scenario, the terrain, the opponent, and the enemy army.

 

I bet if we could watch his games, we would see the Water Strategy in action. Instead, I suggest you look at the examples in Astartes Tactical Treatise to better understand how a Water Army plays. While the answers to me are fairly obvious, I still had to think about them quite a bit. The "wrong" options are understandably "typical" answers.

[Ryjak]

And so, I'll attempt to build a viable 500 point Core army:

 

HQ - Librarian, Gate of Infinity, Vortex of Doom

 

Troop - Tactical Squad, Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher, Powerfist, TLHB Razorback

 

Troop - 4x Scouts with BP/CCW, Sergeant with a Combi-melta

Fast Attack - Landspeeder with Heavy Flamer and Multi-melta

 

I mostly tried to get cheap, multi-option units. The Librarian is a solid Water choice, as he can do a lot of things. I went with GOI for the mobility, and Vortex of Doom, because it can kill anything. Null Zone is also a solid power, as it messes with your opponent's plan. The psychic hood is also pretty handy.

 

The Tactical Squad has some of the best Water weapons in the Codex Space Marine arsenal. A plasmagun is happy at range or up close, the Missile Launcher has long range capacity against anything, a Powerfist can squish just about anything. The Razorback gives the army a lot of mobility options at a fairly cheap price, plus it has a Heavy Bolter.

 

Unfortunately, this doesn't leave enough for a useful (ie 10-man) Tactical Squad, so we look at Scouts and Landspeeders. I debated a lot of options before going with this. I don't particularly like putting both a pure anti-tank and anti-horde weapon on such a fragile vehicle, but it certainly fits the Water concept. Please remember a Multi-melta can take out light vehicles from 24" away.

 

The Scouts are primarily an Alpha Strike unit as well, but they also have a lot of options. They're a great counter-assault unit, can serve as a screen, claim remote objectives with Infiltration, and you can even stick them in the Razorback. Retreating in the Razor or through the Librarian's Gate is probably a solid option for them, most games.

 

** EDIT **

 

Actually, this isn't a good Water army with the Scouts. Knocking them out, and thus the Landspeeder, I came up with this:

 

Librarian (pick a shooting power, and a utility power)

5-man Tactical Squad with Las/plasma and Pintle Storm Bolter

10-man Tactical Squad with plasmagun, Missile Launcher, Vet Sgt with Storm Bolter

 

Fortunately I stumbled on this post by Silent Requiem about Codex Water Marines. It reminded me that one of the fundamentals of a water unit is the ability to run and gun. So this army has units to do just that. The Razorback's main mission is to snipe with the Lascannon, then shoot infantry with plasma and bolters. The Rhino's main mission is to shoot infantry, and if necessary, snipe with the Missile Launcher. The Rhino is inherently weaker on the move, but can still fight while mobile. Usually, it'll be better to move a full 12" or stand still to fire everything than to roll 6" and put out 6 bolter shots and maybe 2 plasma shots. When the enemy closes, option A is to run away, option B is to boltershock with both Tactical Squads and the Librarian.

 

Another option is the all Bike army:

 

Captain with Bike, Hellfire Rounds, Relic Blade

SM Bike Squad with 2x meltaguns

SM Bike Squad with Multi-melta Attack Bike

 

This may not be the best way to present a Water Bike army, but I wanted to show you a viable 500 point Bike army. The Bike Squads really should have a Vet Sgt with a Powerfist, but I felt the points were better spent on the Relic Blade and melta weapons. I like the Attack Bike over the meltagun squad due to the range differential; a Multi-melta is pretty effective for popping light armor at 24" range.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

after reading the Scroll and offering prays to our Carrion Lord's will.. I have been blessed with a vision.. like a dream or a long forgotten moment in time..

wait, it's... it's... The upgraded demi company... wouldn't it be the prime example of the Water style marine force?

in my thoughts, I think you would need particular upgrades to make it work proper. but what army doesn't? (besides the Green tide..)

x3 Tacticals, w/ LC+FL+MB+PF(or PW/MB)+SB in rhinos with extra SB and HKM's

x1 Devastator squad with x4 ML+ PF and Rhino w/ HKM+SB(or if you can squeeze it, x2 PF, nothing says big scary dog, like dual Power fists) or x4 Plasma cannons (+1)

x1 Assault squad w/JP+x3 PP+SS+MB

x1 libby w/JP+PP (*edit:replace w/ Calgar in PA for Drop pod fun)

you could replace the Devastator squad with a pair of Mortis Dreads for nearly the same point cost.. (shifting resources and with being able to move and fire.. more fluid IMO)

and if you don't like Jump packs on your Assault marines, you could stick em in a pod instead.

 

As for the 1st 500pts. x2 200pt tacticals (LC+FL+PW+MB) and/or (PF+MG+ML) and a Libby for 500pts.

*edit: Wouldn't Calgar be the 1st choice Sc for any marine Codex Water army due to what God of war and Titanic might bring to the Table? (ut oh, i'm getting a vision of dual tacticals in dual LR w/ a triple dose of Mortis dreads, a single vindi, and a rhino full of Assault marines, both running in the shadows of the LR.... oOoo my brain hurts

[Aidoneus]

Water is about more than just covering all your bases in terms of anti-infantry and anti-tank, and it's about more than the sum of the parts of your army. In the Ordos forum we've had extensive conversations about what makes a Water unit, what makes a Water army, and whether the latter can only comprise the former. To sum up (and in doing so, to leave out a huge amount of nuance and analysis), each unit in the army needs to be equally flexible for the army as a whole to operate with perfect fluidity. Each unit also needs to be able to put out the hurt on the move. This is because a Water style of play is all about doing the ideal thing in any given situation, and often times the ideal thing is to move, either forward to apply pressure or kiting backwards to escape danger. Another key element is the ability to do damage from outside of the enemy's assault range, while on the move. This is the only way a Water army will be able to deal with aggressive assault lists such as Orks or Tyranids.

 

Based on this, there are a very small number of truly "Water" units in the Marine codex. Standard Terminators count, as do Dreadnoughts and Bikers. Land Speeders are pretty good, albeit confined to shooting only. And of course Godhammer Land Raiders. Techmarines might qualify.

 

Of course, the sad thing is that Tac Squads and Scout Squads don't qualify. Tac squads come close, but they just can't remain effective on the move. Against assault lists, they either sit still and absorb the assault, or they run away and forfeit their ability to keep firing.

 

My advice for a truly Water list using nothing but the Space Marine codex would be to focus heavily on Bikers, Terminators, and Dreadnoughts. Those units can stay mobile, fire at range, and put up a helluva fight in close combat. A captain on a bike makes the whole thing legal, and a Master of the Forge put the Dreads in heavy support to allow you to take more Termies.

 

But there's more than one way to make a Water list, obviously. You just need to absolutely focus on flexibility and mobility above all else. Tac squads in Rhinos aren't ideal, but they're good enough in a pinch. Sternguard can provide tons of flexibility with combi-weapons and special ammo, plus with Pedro they're Scoring, meaning you don't have to rely so heavily on Tacticals. And of course, allied Grey Knights fit the bill better than anything. I'm sure I'm forgetting other good units too. Just keep repeating the mantra: Flexibility and Mobility.

 

 

Edit: I've been reading through some of the old Water Warrior discussions, and I found an absolutely perfect explanation of what I was trying to say about Tactical squads. The quotation is from Number6, taken from within a much longer post. You can find it, and some extremely in-depth discussion of Water concepts here. The first bit is a battle report I did, which serves primarily as an example case for the discussion later, which is by far the more valuable part of the thread. Anyway, here's what Number6 has to say about the Water potential of the Tactical Squad:

 

The reason is that for most units and armies, spending points to generalize means that, in any given situation, some of those points will be going unused. A standard, common space marine tac squad with a lascannon, plasma gun, and vet sgt with a power fist is a fairly Waterish unit, in my mind. It has decent shooting, mobility, and assault powers, and is capable of tackling very nearly any enemy unit. And yet, any choice the player makes with that squad will sacrifice some part of the squad's capabilities. If it moves, it can't shoot as far nor can it fire it's heaviest weapon. If it assaults, it can't shoot at all. And if it stands still, the significant chunk of change invested in the vet sgt and power fist is going to waste. So yeah, the tac squad is, in a limited sense, "Waterish". But in the broader sense, it isn't. If a unit sacrifices effiencies/capabilities just to maintain flexibility, just in the process of doing it's job, then it isn't really, truly a Water unit. Water units should always maintain full capabilities regardless of what it chooses to do.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

The reason is that for most units and armies, spending points to generalize means that, in any given situation, some of those points will be going unused. A standard, common space marine tac squad with a lascannon, plasma gun, and vet sgt with a power fist is a fairly Waterish unit, in my mind. It has decent shooting, mobility, and assault powers, and is capable of tackling very nearly any enemy unit. And yet, any choice the player makes with that squad will sacrifice some part of the squad's capabilities. If it moves, it can't shoot as far nor can it fire it's heaviest weapon. If it assaults, it can't shoot at all. And if it stands still, the significant chunk of change invested in the vet sgt and power fist is going to waste. So yeah, the tac squad is, in a limited sense, "Waterish". But in the broader sense, it isn't. If a unit sacrifices effiencies/capabilities just to maintain flexibility, just in the process of doing it's job, then it isn't really, truly a Water unit. Water units should always maintain full capabilities regardless of what it chooses to do.

So in accord with the logic of Number6: the LotD would also be on that short list of True water units. no? yes? maybe?