Tell Me All About......

[Aidoneus]

I think so. They have Relentless, right? That's a big step in the right direction. As long as the sergeant has a Power Fist, and the special weapons allow at least some tank busting (missile launcher'd be good enough), I'd say they count.

 

For what it's worth, Obliterators totally count too, for the same reasons. Too bad we're only talking loyalists here.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

I think so. They have Relentless, right? That's a big step in the right direction. As long as the sergeant has a Power Fist, and the special weapons allow at least some tank busting (missile launcher'd be good enough), I'd say they count.

 

For what it's worth, Obliterators totally count too, for the same reasons. Too bad we're only talking loyalists here.

Regarding Lotd as a water unit.

yeah, it seems to me (imho) that with "aid unlooked for(DS w/re roll) Fearless, unyielding spectres (Sv3++) and Slow and purposeful(relentless, but rolls for like in difficult terrain)

i've always thought that Missile launcher for the reach and a Melta gun for the punch+a WS5 power fist to boot, pushes like pretty close to 400 points thou.

[Aidoneus]

Wow! I just took a look and you're right, those things are crazy-expensive! Really good, to be sure, but definitely hard to justify in small-to-medium-sized games. If I did take 'em, I'd honestly go with Plasma Gun and Multi-Melta. It keeps the entire unit at a 24" range, so you aren't pressured to close to within 12" to use the melta. Plus, trust a Chaos player; Relentless Multi-Meltas are fantastic! Again though, that brings you to 380pts for the 10 men. I suppose to could drop a couple me to save points. It's not like a Tac squad, where you need all 10 to get the heavy weapon. And with 3++ saves they're tough enough to make do with maybe 8 men.

 

Then again, no one said Water units were cheap. A kitted-out Biker squad tops 300pts, and 10 Grey Knights is 275 before any upgrades whatsoever. No to mention termie squads. So I think it's just a fact of life. If you want to be good at everything, you're paying for all those abilities, which means the cost per model skyrockets.

 

 

Addressing another issue: I'd like to disagree with some others here in that I do not think a Librarian counts as a Water unit. With the one exception of Machine Curse, he has no offensive ability with a range greater than 12". This means he needs to get really close to the enemy to accomplish anything, which puts him in charge range. Further, while it seems like having lots of powers to choose from gives him flexibility, in reality he must choose from the moment you make your list, and that means he's actually specialized for a specific role.

 

Now, that being said, he can still fit quite nicely into a Water list. Powers like Force Dome, Null Zone, and Gate of Infinity allow him to fill a supporting role, boosting the staying power, offensive power, or movement (respectively) of your other units. While not useful on their own, these powers can make Water units much more able to do their job. And of course, he boosts the squad's CC ability, which never hurts.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

in terms of building a water list, i think that Lotd have been overlooked. Seems to me that to work in concert with other units, a pair of x5 Lotd squads would be an asset.

further thoughts regarding Tactical marines as troop choices, but having them mounted in Land raiders.. and armed for Assault/Objective holding (anti armor from the Godhammers) would also be assets worthy of consideration in terms of a Water style army.

[Ryjak]

Librarian's are water if they have a "utility" power. Gate of Infinity can potentially turn any unit into a "water" unit. Force Dome can harden a fragile unit. And my favorite, Null Zone, can mess with your opponent in ways that are hard to predict. Turbo-boosting becomes dangerous, and hard units like TH/SS Terminators suddenly become squishy. At the same time, I don't think there's a reason to pick two of these; a "water" Librarian needs a "gun". I prefer Vortex, since it can destroy anything, and ripping holes in reality is always fun and exciting.

 

LotD are overlooked for two reasons; ultimately, they're a slow, expensive Tac squad, and... who knows when they're going to show up? The only way to mitigate the first is to use them in an army without Tac squads. For the second, the solution is to take two or three of these squads. How much are two min-maxed plasmagun, multi-melta, Powerfist squads, and how would you use them?

 

I think the best way to use a Tac Squad from a Water standpoint is to make the Godhammer Land Raider a Scoring unit. (The 2nd best is "cheap" access to a Razorback) How many points is it worth to make a Land Raider Scoring? But if that's what you're going for, why not take Scouts instead? Scouts with BP/CCW or Shotguns, plus a Vet with a Powerfist and/or combi-flamer, make a potent assault force... that's why you'll occasionally see them jumping out of Land Speeder Storms.

 

This leads me to an important question. What kind of capabilities should a unit transported in a Godhammer Land Raider have? I'm thinking "Assault", since non-walker vehicles are incapable of participating in the Assault Phase. For a Codex Marine army, this means either kind of Terminators, packless Assault Squads or Vanguard Vets, the forementioned Scouts, and just about every HQ choice, including the Command Squad and Honor Guard.

 

Of all those, I like the Scouts the most... especially if you're getting your Land Raider fix from the Elite slot, and you slap a Teleport Homer into the mix.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

How much are two min-maxed plasmagun, multi-melta, Powerfist squads, and how would you use them?

x5 Lotd +PF+ML+MG is 215 *2 is 430. As for use, they would be a Part of your Anvil.. or in more base terms I would use them for 1st Anti armor/anti fire bases/anti transport (in that order) 2nd tarpitting Scary MC/SC and 3rd contesting hail mary objectives (far side of the table, up in a building kinda of OBJs.

oh btw a Pg+MM+Pf is 15pts more per squad, so an extra 30...so what 460?

[Aidoneus]

Well, on the one hand, making the Raider Scoring and providing some CC with Scouts would make the two units together operate as one Water unit. It's pricey, but it's resilient and versatile, so a decent option.

 

On the other hand, the Scouts themselves would not be Water. If the Raider got destroyed or damaged, you'd be left with a stranded Fire unit (and not a super powerful one at that). I hadn't really thought of it before, but it just strikes me that every other Water unit has had all of its Water-y characteristics (mobility, shooting, cc, etc) inherently. That is, you can't "cripple" a PAGK or Biker squad by removing their ability to perform one or more of their roles. I'm not saying this necessarily has to be the case for Water units, only that I notice that it seems to be the case with Water units generally.

 

 

As for the librarian, I think you're right that a single Utility power would probably suffice, so long as he's with a squad. And I think Vortex is nice because, while it doesn't have a lot of range, it does let you hurt most any target. It does mean the Librarian needs Termy armour. But hey, that comes with a Storm Bolter, so all the better!

[Ryjak]

The Scouts would be intrisic to the Land Raider in this case. You're taking them because you need two Troops anyway, and I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement that the only "Water" Troops are Bikes, which require a Bike Captain. The Land Raider, on the other hand, is a good "Water" unit in the first place. If it was running around without a unit inside, you wouldn't be too upset if it was immobilized or destroyed. Putting the Scouts inside shouldn't change how you use it.

[Aidoneus]

Sort of. First off, the Land Raider itself is not a Water unit. It can't assault! Don't confuse "merely flexible" with "truly Water." A true Water unit be able to do precisely what is best in every situation, and when that means charging into assault, the Raider fails the test.

 

Now, that's the Raider by itself. When you have CC Scouts inside it, it does a bit better. 10 bodies with pistols+CCW and a Fist on the sergeant isn't the best combat unit in the game, but it'll do in most situations. Like I've discussed before, having a slight preference towards shooting is fine for a Water unit, as shooting leaves more tactical options open in future turns than does charging into CC.

 

My thought from a purely theoretical standpoint is that the Scouts+Raider would work fine as a sort of multi-part Water unit. However, having never seen it tried, let alone in a Water army using Water tactics, I don't want to say for certain that it would. I'd like to try it out and see how it actually performs on the tabletop. Perhaps alongside some terminators and dreadnoughts, using either a Libbie or MotF for HQ. I could see that potentially working.

[Grey Mage]

Sort of. First off, the Land Raider itself is not a Water unit. It can't assault! Don't confuse "merely flexible" with "truly Water." A true Water unit be able to do precisely what is best in every situation, and when that means charging into assault, the Raider fails the test.

Never going to happen.

 

No unit in the game can do exactly what is best in EVERY situation.

 

A water unit is one that is flexable, and can make a significant contribution on a large variety of situations.

[Warp Angel]

Water - in its essence and to go back to Go Rin No Sho - the book of Five Rings where the whole foundation of elemental tactica is based - means that you can adapt to your opponent's strategy without losing effectiveness. Water is adaptive, able to reshape itself to address any tactical situation.

 

In essence - a Water Army (as opposed to a water unit) needs to:

 

1) Be Opportunistic - able to exploit weaknesses or mistakes in the opponent's army or playstyle. It's easiest to do this if you have some form of tactical mobility.

2) Able to strike decisively - this is counter to the Water Unit philosophy, since a pure water unit is seldom decisive on its own. Instead you should have several unit combinations which, when used in concert are able to achieve decisiveness.

3) Able to force your enemy to react to your strategy - make them do what you want them to do so that you control the timing and pace of the battle.

4) Not have a standard strategy - I always try and emphasize when people ask for advice on army lists and tell me how they are going to play it that they don't want to have a "way" to play it. This touches on Void, but is really an aspect of flexibility and adaption.

 

If you look at things in isolation and look for Water units, I think you're going to struggle. here simply aren't that many out there and by following that logic, Eldar will never be able to play a water army because they have no water units... everything is a specialist or has a glaring weakness in one area.

[Grey Mage]

I fully disagree on that statement. Almost every Eldar unit has options that open up their abilities into other areas- the fact that most players steadfastly refuse to use them in a holistic manner is not an issue with the army itself.

 

Example- Fire Dragons can take a heavy flamer. Swooping Hawks, already excellent against vehicles and light infantry have access to pinning weapons and power weapons against heavier foes. Scorpions can have a B.Blade, increasing their effectiveness against vehicles while a wraithlord can take flamers to help vs hordes.

 

Etc etc etc. When you then combine the army together you find that not only does each aspect cover a particular area they overlap enough to assist each other in order to maximize their abilities.... and many eldar units are designed to work at their best when aided by another unit- the farseer is a prime, if overly obvious, example.

 

I do however fully agree on this:

4) Not have a standard strategy - I always try and emphasize when people ask for advice on army lists and tell me how they are going to play it that they don't want to have a "way" to play it. This touches on Void, but is really an aspect of flexibility and adaption.

I find teaching strategies for highly successful lists incredibly difficult, simply because everything ends up being 'well it depends on everything thats occuring on the board". Once you get to a certain point its really just... an instinct.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

@gray mage and warp angel: Tai chi chuan/ and other internal arts of chinese hand to hand combat/ as well as taoist lore, has something that is called wu Chi, or the moment before action/energy. This is in regard to not have a Set battle plan.

The only thing, that bothers me as one, a 40k player, but more in regards to real life application of Tai chi Chuan, is the notion of WarpAngels' third point of being able to force your foe into attacking in a particular pattern. The old addage(SP) is that if you put a cork in a tub of water and hold it down, when you tire, the cork will spring from the water. The water does not come out of the tub to embrace the cork.. in fact all the water does is what water does which is to form to the shape of it's vessel and to seek the lowest point in regards to gravity. in fact, Jedi master yoda said it best in Empire, "a jedi knight uses the force for knowledge and defense."

@ adounuis and ryjak: Bikes as water troops , or course, and i would take Pa marines over scouts, in LRC: due to better assault weapon selections:Plus if you do take your "Free" missile launcher then your choices are greater in regards that if you on an objective, and your only target is in LOS and more than 25 inches away you can still reach out and show em some love. :huh: IMHO i think that maybe running a LLS with 5 scouts + a 10 marine tactical in a LRC +Calgar in PA, married with a capt on a bike+x2 full Marine bike squads would be the start of a puddle of unknown depth. (lowriders beware!!)

Personally it is like walking on the moon and and I'm still on the launch pad, working on my sodium powered rocket ship. <_<

[Ryjak]

Thanks, Warp Angel, that was a great summary of this playstyle's method and philosophy... expecially point four. I'm curious, do you consider your Marine army (which I posted earlier) a "water" army? Do you play in the water style?

 

Brother_Fatiswon: Well, if you're taking an LRC, you better be using that assault ramp to full effect, in which case I think a full Scout Squad with a Missile Launcher and a Vet Sgt with your choice of combi-weapon and power weapon will serve you better, and cost a bit less. Assault Scouts will always hit harder than Tactical Marines for that first round.

[Warp Angel]

Thanks, Warp Angel, that was a great summary of this playstyle's method and philosophy... expecially point four. I'm curious, do you consider your Marine army (which I posted earlier) a "water" army? Do you play in the water style?

 

Brother_Fatiswon: Well, if you're taking an LRC, you better be using that assault ramp to full effect, in which case I think a full Scout Squad with a Missile Launcher and a Vet Sgt with your choice of combi-weapon and power weapon will serve you better, and cost a bit less. Assault Scouts will always hit harder than Tactical Marines for that first round.

 

Way of the Water Warrior was one of the inspirations for the original Killhammer articles. The whole point of Killhammer is to provide a framework for making the reactive decisions you need and choosing units that are flexible and work well together.

 

So yes, it's a water philosophy and I'm a water player by most definitions, though I wouldn't necessarily claim that mantle myself.

[Warp Angel]

I fully disagree on that statement. Almost every Eldar unit has options that open up their abilities into other areas- the fact that most players steadfastly refuse to use them in a holistic manner is not an issue with the army itself.

 

Example- Fire Dragons can take a heavy flamer. Swooping Hawks, already excellent against vehicles and light infantry have access to pinning weapons and power weapons against heavier foes. Scorpions can have a B.Blade, increasing their effectiveness against vehicles while a wraithlord can take flamers to help vs hordes.

 

Etc etc etc. When you then combine the army together you find that not only does each aspect cover a particular area they overlap enough to assist each other in order to maximize their abilities.... and many eldar units are designed to work at their best when aided by another unit- the farseer is a prime, if overly obvious, example.

 

I do however fully agree on this:

4) Not have a standard strategy - I always try and emphasize when people ask for advice on army lists and tell me how they are going to play it that they don't want to have a "way" to play it. This touches on Void, but is really an aspect of flexibility and adaption.

I find teaching strategies for highly successful lists incredibly difficult, simply because everything ends up being 'well it depends on everything thats occuring on the board". Once you get to a certain point its really just... an instinct.

 

On the rare occasions I borrow my friend's Eldar army to play it, I give the Fire Dragons a heavy flamer and choose the options that make the individual units more well rounded. The problem is that Fire Dragons are never going to be effective in an assault and a Wraithlord is never going to be able to be rapidly deployed to meet a threat. They aren't completely water, though they can be equipped to make them more flexible and increase the water traits of the army as a whole.

[Aidoneus]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but it doesn't seem like he's quite kicked it yet. Fire Dragons (to take an arbitrary example) CAN NOT be a water unit because they have to get within 12" to offer the slightest bit of offensive power (except the exarch, but that's just 1 model). This puts them well within every enemy's threat bubble, and particularly within their assault bubble. This means that to use your Dragons at all, you open yourself up to an all-but-inevitable next-turn charge. The problem is, in many cases that isn't what the situation demands. Against Orks or 'Nids or Khorne or Space Puppies or Blood Angels or, hell, massed fire from IG or Tau, that's gonna get you killed. A Water unit would choose to kite back and apply its own offensive power while denying the enemy the ability to apply their own.

 

This is something a lot of the Eldar codex has severe problems with. It's also why they work so well as Air Cav. You could probably manage a fairly Water-y army using Dire Avengers, Farseers, Swooping Hawks, and Wraithlords, since those units can move and fire at 18" or more, and also pack at least some degree of versatility through upgrades. Unfortunately, most people see this as a sub-par Eldar list. The real problem is that the Eldar codex is specifically designed to be an army of dedicated specialists, which is precisely what a Water army cannot be.

[Warprat]

My stab at a 500 pt list. Hard to add an HQ and retain mobility... the drop pod seemed the best fit. Against shooty opponents, the squads can deploy forward and attack first turn. Against close combat armies, they can deploy at range. Both squads can combat squad. The Librarian has a mix of powers. A little bit of everything with the swiss army knife approach.

 

 

 

500 pt Water

 

HQ:

 

Librarian 100pts

Avenger, Might of Ancients

 

 

Troops:

 

10 man Tactical Squad 225pts

Combi-melta, meltagun, plasma cannon, drop pod

 

10 man Scout Squad 175pts

Missile launcher, 9 sniper rifles, power fist

[Ookami_81]

500 pts water is a highly difficult list to build, but I tend to think your list is an earth one.

Your DP allow you to deploy anywhere you want, but after that, your entire army is footslogging.

And footslogging marines cannot move fast enough to be watery.

It's a little more waterish with a Rhino, (but you've got an IC transport problem) or a razor (but here 3/4 of your army is footslogging so it's about as earthy as with a DP).

Plus with melta you will be in charge range, be tied, and so deprived of the necessary mobility in water style, allowing you to kite, that is to adapt to your opponent's army dispatching on the board.

I'm at a loss but I can't see anything more waterish than the list posted some post away with bikes and scouts in a lanspeeder storm. (but I acknowledge it couls also be considered "air-style").

 

EDIT: in fact it was in another thread, so I give it here, but it's not a list of mine, can't remember exactly who's the author but I think it's Warp Angel.

 

Captain, relic blade, bike

Bike squad, 4 bikes, meltagun, MM AB.

Scout squad (5) CC tailored, Pfist, landspeeder storm.

[Warprat]

500 pts water is a highly difficult list to build, but I tend to think your list is an earth one.

Your DP allow you to deploy anywhere you want, but after that, your entire army is footslogging.

And footslogging marines cannot move fast enough to be watery.

It's a little more waterish with a Rhino, (but you've got an IC transport problem) or a razor (but here 3/4 of your army is footslogging so it's about as earthy as with a DP).

Plus with melta you will be in charge range, be tied, and so deprived of the necessary mobility in water style, allowing you to kite, that is to adapt to your opponent's army dispatching on the board.

I'm at a loss but I can't see anything more waterish than the list posted some post away with bikes and scouts in a lanspeeder storm. (but I acknowledge it couls also be considered "air-style").

 

EDIT: in fact it was in another thread, so I give it here, but it's not a list of mine, can't remember exactly who's the author but I think it's Warp Angel.

 

Captain, relic blade, bike

Bike squad, 4 bikes, meltagun, MM AB.

Scout squad (5) CC tailored, Pfist, landspeeder storm.

 

 

I think the discussion of "perfect" water units has moved the discussion of a water army off course to air style. So, your comment is in line with my own perception.

 

I originally chose combi-plasma, plasma gun, missile launcher, drop pod for the Tac squad, but changed it after much anguish and consideration. The squad could easily combat squad, pop a transport, then avenger the survivors. A pretty nifty alpha strike... I like plasma much better for the range, but the plasma guns and avenger don't mix as well. The plasma cannon is an awsome addition that can really put the hurt on most anything infantry, with a little bit of luck.

 

The HQ transport has to be a drop pod, razor or bike (with captain). Chaplain Cassius was my first pick for HQ, before I discarded him for the cheaper, more flexable Librarian. The Librarian Might of Ancients power pretty much gives a the librarian a relic blade against troops, and a power fist+ against vehicles with the 2d6.

 

I normally play an Earth list, without transports or scouts, so the Water list I posted seems very mobile to me in comparison. My peference would be for a rhino, but it's not in the cards. I think any water list needs some tacticals and scouts, and this list builds that early foundation.

 

Sniper rifles seem a bit weak, but are somewhat effective against a variety of target types, and the scouts retain pistols for 2 close combat attacks plus the pistol shots on the charge. The powerfist provides all round point offense/defense. I really wanted to include a land speeder storm, but opted for more bodies. A five man CCW/Pistol squad might be better.

 

Warprat ;)

[Ryjak]

I don't quite get the distinction between a water unit and an air unit in the first place, so if someone can help do so, it would help.

 

Strangely, I feel I understand the difference in play style for an air or water army, and feel this play style is the fundamental difference between a SM Water Army using bikes and a SM Air Army using bikes. I'm guessing a Water Bike squad would be equipped very differently from an Air Bike squad. One constantly "runs and guns" while the other often turbo-boosts and stikes hard occasionally.

 

While writing elsewhere, it occured to me Blood Angels can get Death Company with boltguns... I was wondering if you could build a viable water army with these units, plus maybe 1-2 BA Assault Squads with Jump Packs for capturing objectives.

 

Also, wouldn't a Water army slap Extra Armor on every vehicle to stay mobile?

[Warp Angel]

Also, wouldn't a Water army slap Extra Armor on every vehicle to stay mobile?

 

If Extra Armor did something useful on more than 1/6 of glancing or penetrating hits, then maybe. :)

[Aidoneus]

I don't quite get the distinction between a water unit and an air unit in the first place, so if someone can help do so, it would help.

 

First and foremost, let me say that many units will fall squarely in both categories. They are not mutually exclusive. The well-rounded Biker squad springs instantly to mind as the ideal example of this. The unit's inherent properties make it both an excellent Water unit and an excellent Air unit, and the rest falls down to how you use it in battle.

 

However, there are units that do not fit both descriptions. Going back to the roots of Water tactics, consider a squad of Grey Knights. Again, these represent the epitome of Water characteristics, being able to threaten light and heavy infantry, armour, shooting and assault, and they can threaten more than 12" while moving. But when you ask if they are also an Air unit, the answer is clearly "no." They can only move 6" per turn, and even with an expensive Land Raider transport can only go 12". They are essentially incapable of using speed to isolate and overwhelm subsections of the opponent's army.

 

One can just as easily imagine an example of an Air unit that fails to also satisfy the requirements to be a Water unit. The prototypical (i.e. dedicated anti-tank) unit of Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent is a good example. The unit is extremely fast, and will use that speed to isolate and destroy enemy vehicles one-by-one. However, they are incapable of handling assault or massed infantry, and come to the table with a single M.O. in mind, providing the player with basically no choice in style of gameplay.

 

Now, all that being said, I'll admit that I share your concerns about the distinction of Water and Air, at least in part. I won't go into the reasons for that now, but if you're interested you can read a (lengthy) discussion about it here.

[Ryjak]

One thing that's very important for anyone using Water Tactics is to understand a very simple question:

 

Who's the Beatdown?

 

Actually, it's important in any dynamic 1v1 situation. Most armies are so dominate in playing as the Beatdown or Control, they never consider they might need to play as the other roll. Many experienced Codex Marine players will develop two basic strategic plans, depending on their opponent, but they may not understand the fundamental reason for why this works.

[Warprat]

I really like your discription of what a water unit is. If that Grey Knight unit was the whole army, then it would be water. But a water army is more than just picking water units. It is picking units that can act together with the total army being able to use water tactics.

 

To my mind, that means the water army must be able to react to another army's tactics, by using it's weakness against it. A water army takes a somewhat middle position between shooty and close combat. Shoot the assaults and assault the shooty.

 

An example of a unit that works in a water army might be something like a walking Tac squad. It is not speedy, so some faster moving or shooty units would be necessary for overall army mobility ballence. But it is capable of using water tactics in the sense that it can stay in a large squad format to survive to close assault, or it can divide into combat squads to become more shooty.

 

 

So the units in the water army need not all be pure water units, but when the whole army is considered, the army should be able to use water tactics. You could use some staticy or slower elements, as long as the water army can incorperate thier abilities, and still maintain a neutral shooty/assaulty posture, with the ability to react to an opponents army's shooty/assault weaknesses. Mobility is only necessary to achieve those ends. Any extra mobility is wasted points.

 

Air army's need the constant mobility to issolate and destroy enemy units piecemeal, while avoiding retribution. Bikes and speeders being perfect examples. Water armies can use those air elements too, but should only do so to maintain an overall ballence, otherwise they are leaning more towards quasi-air.

 

Eldar armies are water armies in the sense that they have individual units that can assault the shooty and shoot the assaulty. But when you look closer, the army is more a mix of all the elements, earth, air, water and fire. Each element works to combat an opposite on its own. True water armies, however, should be able to shift the whole army into either an assaulty or shooty mode.

 

The perfect fluff example of a 40K Water Army should be a Battle Company with support from the 1st and 10th, HQ etc...

 

 

Thoughts?