Tell Me All About......

[Grey Mage]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but it doesn't seem like he's quite kicked it yet. Fire Dragons (to take an arbitrary example) CAN NOT be a water unit because they have to get within 12" to offer the slightest bit of offensive power (except the exarch, but that's just 1 model). This puts them well within every enemy's threat bubble, and particularly within their assault bubble. This means that to use your Dragons at all, you open yourself up to an all-but-inevitable next-turn charge. The problem is, in many cases that isn't what the situation demands. Against Orks or 'Nids or Khorne or Space Puppies or Blood Angels or, hell, massed fire from IG or Tau, that's gonna get you killed. A Water unit would choose to kite back and apply its own offensive power while denying the enemy the ability to apply their own.

 

This is something a lot of the Eldar codex has severe problems with. It's also why they work so well as Air Cav. You could probably manage a fairly Water-y army using Dire Avengers, Farseers, Swooping Hawks, and Wraithlords, since those units can move and fire at 18" or more, and also pack at least some degree of versatility through upgrades. Unfortunately, most people see this as a sub-par Eldar list. The real problem is that the Eldar codex is specifically designed to be an army of dedicated specialists, which is precisely what a Water army cannot be.

*shrugs* I play Eldar just fine with a water style and alot of footslogging units- including fire dragons.

 

Your right- if I was stupid enough to face them up against a large boyz mob theyd get their butts kicked the next turn, but moving up in support of my Dire Avengers, they pop a battle wagon and the DAs then wreck the contents just as fully.... they are an important part of the the water aspect of my army because they give me abilities.

 

I form my army into 'wings' each with a slightly different focus, complementary to each other and fully adaptable in and of themselves. One wing might be mobile and mounted, another a fire base, another footslogging, or a distractionairy force. Using these in tandem, and occaisionally swapping their roles on the fly, I can adapt to anything my opponent has brought to the field and dictate the battle through removal of key enemy units and proper placement of my own.

[mowglie]

I don't get this obsession with what is and what isn't a "water unit".

 

It's the composition of the army that's important. Sure there are a couple of units that really characterise each style, but your 3000 point army doesn't suddenly become a fire army just because you put two MMAB in it...

 

(In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's the way you play, not the list you make, that defines your style. That's another topic though...)

[Bannus]

It is how the army fights that determines the style - while some units cater more to one than another, it is not the deciding factor.

 

Still, it is a good exercise to review and evaluate units within the context of the fighting style.

[Koremu]

Also, wouldn't a Water army slap Extra Armor on every vehicle to stay mobile?

 

If Extra Armor did something useful on more than 1/6 of glancing or penetrating hits, then maybe. :D

I use extra armour extensively, I find it worthwhile.

 

But then people are willing to hand-to-hand tanks a lot where I live.

[Ryjak]

In my mind, I can't distinguish between an "Air" and "Water" army for Space Marines, and from scanning the forums, I'm not the only one. So, with that goal in mind…

 

First, what is the best example of a Water army? Earth is pretty easy (Imperial Guard/Gunlines) as is Fire (just about every army out there) but Air and Water… Silent Requiem makes a strong case for pure Grey Knights as Water, but maybe there's something better.

 

Second, what are the most important qualities for a Water army? I think it's mobility, the ability to "run and gun" (movement doesn't detract from your firepower), and assault potential. Every unit in a Water army should have some capacity against anything it might face on the battlefield. Mostly, this means giving each unit some way to deal with AV14. Units that can engage in HtH combat should have something that gives them HtH power (like a Powerfist Vet Sgt) or be deployed in tandem with a strong HtH unit (such as a ML/LC Dread bubblewrapped with Tactical Terminators). Vehicles without HtH capacity are ok, since getting assaulted does not directly remove their ability to shoot. Water armies are also more concerned about preserving their forces than destroying their opponent, and are willing to cause decisive damage over multiple turns. A masterful Water army will rarely spam units, making it difficult for an oppoent to predict.

 

What does this mean for Space Marine unit selection? For Troops, this means full-sized Bike squads with Attack bikes, made possible with a Captain on a Bike. These should be augmented by Tactical Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Typhoon or Assault Cannon Landspeeders, Predators, Vindicators, and Landraiders. Other units to consider are the Bike Command Squad, a Librarian with a 'utility' power and a 'shooting' power, and a MotF with a Conversion Beamer on a bike. Also, a Water unit will often give you many deployment options. A Terminator Squad can footslog or teleport (hopefully with a Beacon), Landspeeders can be effectively placed in Reserve, and full-sized squads can Combat Squad.

 

Rhinos and Razorbacks don’t really support a Water army well, but can be used effectively with other units. A squad with a Razorback could be used as a weak firebase. They probably shouldn't be placed directly on an objective, but be close enough for a last-minute capture/contest. Also, this presents your opponent with choices: 1) Go for the Objective, and get shot by the squad or 2) Kill the squad, and possibly be out of position to get the Objective. Further, the Razorback doesn't have to be deployed near the squad, or with any intent of actually supporting the squad.

 

How do you play a Water Army? In general, a Water army will be the Control army, and thus has a general objective of using mobility to deny their opponent’s ability to effectively engage them. A Water Army will almost always prefer to go second. Objectives don’t matter much, as a Water army can contest many of them at the last minute. Concentrate on safely crippling or eliminating targets of opportunity, and if a situation isn’t favorable, reposition. Idealy, a Water army will be able to keep it's opponent at arms reach the entire game, and only engaging in decisive Assaults on its terms.

 

The difficulty for a Water army is how it plays when it’s the Beatdown, as the strategy must be tailored to the terrain, the opponent, and the mission. A Water army tends to be the Beatdown when their opponent is very strongly oriented to one of the game phases, and the water army cannot effectively control/prevent their ability to use it. Examples are a solidly deployed IG gunline (dominating the Shooting Phase) a Saim-Hain army (dominating the Movement Phase) or an Ork/Tyranid Horde (dominating the Assault Phase).

 

Often in these cases, the Water army will start by emulating an Earth, Fire, or Air army until it can achieve a decisive result (crippling a Deathstar unit, waiting for their opponent to commit, removing Fast or overly threatening units). Once accomplished, the Water army will revert to it's normal tactics. That's why a Water army will almost always try to engage the IG Gunline in a flank assault (hitting them where they're weak while preventing them from using their strength) builds a mobile, defensive fort against Saim-Hain along a table edge (prevents isolation, and counter-punches any unit that exposes itself) and uses a Refused Flank against the Assault Horde (can't bring numbers to bear, concentrates fire on closest unit).

 

At least, I think that's how it works.

[Warprat]

In my mind, I can't distinguish between an "Air" and "Water" army for Space Marines, and from scanning the forums, I'm not the only one. So, with that goal in mind…

 

For me, the biggist part of the distinction is in the overall makeup of armies. Most armies, from a big macro epic standpoint, do not have transports for every troop. 40K armies are many times given the option of taking a dedicated transport, but this in a macro sense, is simply attaching some of the limited transport pool to a unit for temporary assignment. The vast majority of combat units actually walk, or are in static positions.

 

Marines are different. They always have personal transport options available for every squad. As a 40K player, your army may choose not to use them, but from a macro perspective they are always available. That mobility comes mainly in the form of Rhinos, but, can initially be drop pods.

 

The rhinos, bolters, and power armor are a pretty middle of the road force. Decent at any task, but not exceptional at it, a Battle Company. That to me is Water from a macro perspective.

 

I take that imformation then, and apply it to the 40K game. So, for me, any Marine army with transport/scout/teleport etc.. options for the majority of squads(in whatever form) is Water. While Marine Air armies use the tactics you decribe above.