Restoring a feared Deathwing?

[Isiah]

I take this cue for this topic from an interesting one started by Grand Master Neo who wanted an Alpha Legion type company led by Asmodia. On the face of it a compelling idea and I can see the appeal.

 

This of course is kinda where the Deathwing should be in my opinion. Although I think it highly unlikely that the DW would ever be committed in company-strength except in the most extreme of circumstances or if we got wind of Cypher. That's my personal opinion of course and I'm prepared to be shot down for it.

 

Fluffwise the DW should be our Chapter-integrated Alpha Legion / Legion of the Damned / Deathwatch / Inquisitors all rolled into one. And to be FEARED even though they're on our side.

 

If you're a line company battle brother in a battlezone somewhere and you see more than three or four squads of Deathwing appearing in any one place at any one time then be very afraid of what you are getting yourself into.

 

Game-wise my own take on the Deathwing is that they should be considered as being a rare option [to steal the Fantasy FOC term as well as the real world meaning]. We are somewhat spoiled by being allowed to field a whole DW army with DW squads as troops I reckon, even with Belial present. Multiwing [DW + RW] is fine and as per fluff and besides this isn't 'pure' one way or the other.

 

I think this is something that our current and all previous Codexes have got wrong. In fact the restrictions placed upon the DW now are probably edging towards the right direction. The 3rd Edition pure DW lists led by Interrogator-Chaplains or Librarians although effective and great fun seem so wrong looking back on it. (I'm talking myself out of playing pure DW I know which might seem odd ;).)

 

I also think our DW need dirtying up. Let me explain. They've become too commonplace and not special enough yes, meaning there is no longer any mystique to them. They've become a bone white all terminator-armoured first company but somewhere along the line something's gone badly missing and no amount of feathery/daggery Forge World shoulder pads is gonna change that. This homogenised cleanliness is partly a result of how the new Codexes are written both in terms of playing them and the fluff behind the scenes.

 

I'm interested to know what anyone else thinks about this. I'm I barking mad or half right?? BTW this isn't intended as another "new Codex wishlist" type of discussion – it's more a philosophical exploration of the perception of the values of the DW as they currently stand versus what they could or should become.

 

The key aspects as I see it being:

 

• Adding mystique

• Increasing Fear Factor

• Restoring rarity

• Building in 'covetability'

 

Cheers

I

[Bringer of Redemption]

I personally agree that for what they are supposed to be fluff wise the DW aren't powerful enough in game terms. For the extra 15 points we play we get worse wargear (TH/SS) and fearless. When you consider that they're one of the best, if not the best, terminator armored forces out there in terms of fluff, that just doesn't cut it.

 

As for deploying in company strength, I don't have the codex in front of me right now, but I believe it mentions several times where most, if not all, of the deathwing was deployed to take out a large group of fallen, but that was it.

 

--BoR

[Legio Draconis]

I have to say I agree with you, I think the Deathwing should be an ultra elite unit seen rarely and putting the fear of the Emperor into any and all enemies. Restricting them in game terms would be tough, though fluff wise I think it should be stressed that the Deathwing are ultra rare and the fecal matter is about to hit the rotary cooling device when they turn up.

[Tanhausen]

Hi there Isiah,

 

Agreed.

 

I'm not the most experienced DW player (or any army for the case), but as I read in a post the other day, that codex creep theory means that everybody has everything... we are no longer so exclusive :(

 

Just as a comment, that has happenen on a higher level also: how many armies/lists are S4 T4 WS4 S3+? ALL the marines (both loyal and traitor), the necrons and SO many other armies options that an IG footman becomes a rarity and a hero :) Same goes with a S10 AP 2 shot or similar: different names, costs... same results. Not neat.

 

Back to DW:

 

It's true that you end up seeing too many termies splashed in other armies (usually in a "shoe box" aka as LR), but AT LEAST nobody has the ability to field as many as we do.

 

Also, I'm a firm believer that our next codex will allow DS+assault, probably using another character like Belial. It would make sense that the allegedly elite termies, space assault specialists, would have a different ruling (besides DWA).

 

I like the idea of cleanness...could you develop a bit?

[RayJ]

I agree with you in all regards on how this army should be perceived, and I believe it can be mimicked on the battlefield while keeping them as troops (or simply scoring units like Sternguard) and still in 5-man squads. Turning up the killy factor on them is easy. What's not so easy is balancing their survivability for the increased cost that would need.

 

My opinion is that a squad of 5 deathwing terminators should be on par with a squad of 8 terminators from other armies in points, effectiveness, and survivability. I'm going to don my game designer cap and make a rough first draft at the unit as I imagine it. It might be a little too much "new rules wishlist" for the topic, but I'm going to give reason to it all and use the rules to enforce the fluff.

 

Deathwing Terminator Squad

250 points

1 Deathwing Sergeant WS 5 BS 4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A3 Ld10 Sv 2+(5i)

4 Deathwing Terminators WS 4 BS 4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv 2+(5i)

 

Wargear:

Storm Bolter

Power Fist (Sergeant has a Power Weapon)

Terminator Armor (Grants Relentless, Deep Strike, and Deathwing Assault)

 

Special Rules:

Fearless

Deathwing Assault (As currently printed)

Angels of Death*

 

*Storm bolters in the unit gain the Rending special rule. Assault cannons in the unit rend on a roll of 5+. Combi-Weapons in the unit have access to special ammunition (as per sternguard).

 

Any model may trade power weapon or power fist for a chainfist at +5 points.

Any model may trade storm bolter for a combi-weapon at +5 points.

Any model may trade all weapons for Thunderhammer and Storm Shield at no cost.

Any model may trade all weapons for a pair of lighning claws at no cost.

 

One Deathwing Terminator may:

Replace Storm Bolter with Assault Cannon at +30 points

Replace Storm Bolter with Heavy Flamer at +5 points

Take a Cyclone Missile Launcher at +30 points

 

Wargear options are updated to parity with Codex: Space Marines.

 

Now let's discuss where this is going with the fluff, and why I think this fits Isiah's vision (and my own)

 

First off, we want this unit to be a little more rare on the battlefield, so a points increase is in order. This reduces the model count on the table. In general, a points increase on a unit is a bad thing, mostly because they are no more survivable. Deathwing do have access to an apothecary. If we assume it will grant Fell No Pain, then at least one of these squads can be made more durable, so I'm going to ignore that weakness currently and icnrease the killing potential to reduce what is able to retaliate. I see this unit as almost always getting the first strike due to entering play via deep strike. Making their alpha strike potent will automatically increase their survivability.

 

Here we come to making the unit more fearful. I began by increasing the statline on the sergeant slightly. This model alone gets a close combat boost, as the Deathwing sergeant is now training for leadership of a company or other higher position. With the increase in WS and attacks, he should generally be inflicting a single wound against meq solidly each round, even when assaulted, bringing him on par with the powerfists vs general melee prowess using mathhammer. We want to focus our attention on MEQ killing with this squad, as they are meant to be fighting chaos marines and fallen, all who are more durable than most of the enemies in the galaxy. While only a slight boost, this opens up some better fluff development for the inner circle, and with 2-3 squads in a list, the difference will definitely show up.

 

A 35 point increase over the current rules still needs a bigger boost to work out, though. I have added a new special rule which pushes Deathwing into territory not seen in any other codex, and makes them extremely deadly from the moment they hit the table. The rending increase on the squad will greatly increase the squad's ability to deal with monstrous creatures and MEQ at range. I feel these are the threats that Deathwing would be deployed to face off against in an actual battle. These are basically more powerful storm bolters and assault cannons that are relics no other chapter has access to.

 

The addition of combi-weapons brings the unit more in line with space wolves and chaos on configuration options. Again, Deathwing have access to weaponry that is as rare as they are, now capable of fielding sternguard special ammunition in their combi-weapons.

 

With these changes, you now have access to the following units:

 

5 TH/SS squad with Cyclone.

Death to monstrous creatures, All the strengths of normal TH/SS termies with cyclone, fearless, and 1 more attack

 

5 Combi-weapons with Cyclone.

Sternguard ammunition and relentless lets this unit operate across the board with 5 bolter shots at 30 inches and 2 cyclone shots.

 

4 Storm Bolters and Assault cannon

The classic unit now packs a much stronger punch against units in the open. MCs will fall quickly, as each storm bolter wound rips through it, and the assault cannon doubles in effectiveness. This also opens up more glancing/penetrating options for heavy armor, since the storm bolter can pen AV 12, and the assault cannon can glance av14 more reliably.

 

Playtesting will of course adjust the points around, but I think it's pretty darn close to where it should be. Just one of this unit will make the opponent wary, much less a consolidated force of them. I assume a unit such as this would appear in the same codex as reduced price standard units, thus giving us the few points we need to field them without hindering us too much.

 

If we MUST ad survivability, I look to a modified feel no pain added into their special rule, succeeding on a 5+ (basically their invuln can trigger even if the armor fails). The apothecary added to such a squad could make FNP work on a lower number then.

 

As I stated, this is a bit much on the rules specific side of things, but I want to show that we can work both ways when envisioning the Deathwing. I don't think cheaper is always better. I would definitely use the unit above without the FNP rule at the cost listed, despite having the same weakness to shooting as the current squad.

[Isiah]

Yes I'm also in the camp of "less and more expensive" providing potency goes up of course to compensate . This might or might not be the death-knell of pure DW armies.

 

Thinking that through further they [Deathwing] should be both sooo Elite as to be almost never seen but also potentially Battlefield Saviours when (if) they do turn up. The fact that unfortunately termies in general have become a bit passé for both Imperial Chapters and Chaos Legions too – resulting in a watering down of their abilities. The overuse has taken away, or the ability to overuse them should one wish, has taken away the 'OMG termies' factor both in fluff and actual game play. This has spoilt things for everyone.

 

For some perverse reason I see the DW as being more restricted in use than other Astartes Chapters' termies. Just because we have 100+ suits of termy armour isn't necessarily a carte blanche reason to field them all at once. Prudence would dictate otherwise given their specialist task within the Chapter surely. This might seem counter-intuitive – but not if they can always apply the killer blow in a way other (terminators) can't.

 

As fighters, take away the veneer of Astartes respectability a moment – they are already regarded as being some of the finest troops of the Imperium. My idea is also to see them become more devious/meaner/callous. This Company are practically no better than structured 41st millennia bounty hunters seeking the Fallen with a drive and an organised focused brutality no one else comes close to. Not only the expected parade ground killer efficiency of other Astartes, but probably should also prepared to use subterfuge, ruse and counter-ruse, spies, informers to stalk their prey (back to that Alpha Legion theme again ). Perhaps even some psychic abilities (remember 2nd edition DW were always immune to psychic attacks – a nice touch I always thought). The dirty players in the Hunt the Fallen game in other words.

 

How this translates to the tabletop I don't know. Should the DW become more focussed on Fallen activities at the expense of anybody else? Already the DA have a reputation for disappearing on secret missions – could that apply to the DW too when they should be supporting their greenwing brethren? Circles within circles and all that.

 

How to hide all this from the Inquisition??

 

Hmm just thinking aloud.

 

Cheers

I

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I think that you are right Isiah, we need our DW to be better, they are the best and so should reflect this.

The DW also never deploy more than is needed for a job, and they are also primarily used for when th RW need armoured backup to take out the fallen. The DW are unique, and they need to reflect this, and they use a different colour scheme to the rest of the DA army. No other chapter does this, I believe. This already gives them an air of mystery and difference to their own brothers, and I think that GW needs to increase this aspect of the DW. They also all know about the fallen, which your standard greenwing marine doesn't know about. I think that we need to play this aspect of the DW up.

 

RayJ, I like your profile and I think that it fits into this topic. Perhaps to increase rarity, they could be a 0-2 choice or something, unless Belial is taken then they can be a 0-3/4, not counting as troops but they gain an extra elite slot or something. Dunno, just an idea.

[Bringer of Redemption]

As long as we're going in the addition of making them more scary, I think being able to assault of off a deathwing assault (maybe just for one squad, though?) would really throw a spanner in the works and make the DW a truly terrifying unit. In some ways, this actually does make sense fluff wise, since the DW are essentially the premier teleport specialists in the imperium.

 

--BoR

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

that would make them a truly terrifying unit. well worth the point hike. And if one can do it, then all should be able to....

 

Hmm...it does fit right in, and aren't they supposed to be really good at teleport accuracy? Could they get to reroll if they fail to hit when they deepstrike? or a minus to how far off target they scatter?

[Darkangeldentist]

I have long thought of ways to make the Deathwing fit their background on the tabletop. Even managed to convince people to let me play test a couple. However all of them have generally fallen foul of naysayers and complaints of power gaming. The biggest hurdle for Dark angels to clear is that strangling association with being largely 'codex' in nature. (Good grief but I hate that term for us. <_< )

 

Anyway... with the Space wolf codex and the Blood angels I am going back to the drawing board. I agree with the sentiments that we should be looking at being elite, rare and expensive. Dare I even say powerful. :o However there is a number of issues that will have to be dealt with, most notably the other space marine chapters! Like it or not we have a serious issue concerning how we make Deathwing different whilst retaining that terminator feel. However I am now going to hide away for a bit with the space marine and space wolf codices and come up with something very different from anything else I have envisaged for the Deathwing. I will be post the ideas for them when I'm happy enough I've got the outline balanced. (Then you can rip me apart.) In brief though I want them expensive enough and nasty enough so that you will only ever see a single unit in a 1500pt army. (But you'll still likely see them.)

 

RayJ; I quite like your outline for Deathwing but am not happy with the rending storm bolters. Too many things have it currently in a similar way to 'feel no pain' having spread throughout the books. I do not want to see Deathwing with feel no pain if possible. I also would like to keep the special ammo for vets. I know they don't have a long history in our books but I do think company vets should be in the codex as an alternative to Deathwing and would help with the exclusivity of the unit. So a squad of vets able to field bolters firing special ammo and some combat weapons fit very nicely into a future Dark angel codex. (Adding another layer to the circles Dark angels pass through on their way towards the centre and the truth.)

[RayJ]

For dealing with deep strike accuracy, I simply see the chapter as a whole bringing in more teleport homers. I'd give teleport homers to all bikes (ravenwing and scout), let all sergeants take the teleport homer upgrade, and leave beacons on the drop pods. This gives you a large amount of saturation for deep strike accuracy. No new rules needed, and it fits the fluff a bit. The homers are likely part of the ancient gear that they just have more of, since it works with the terminator armor they also have in abundance.

[m_r_parker]

Trying to make rules meet fluff, or fluff meet rules, is always going to give a headache. Sure, in fluff you'll never see more than a single squad of them, but there's something really cool about having 30 of them table at once :huh:

 

If it were me, I would be looking to do the following:

 

Space Wolf style Armoury:

This is one of the biggies that I can never understand, for all chapters. These are supposed to be the first company, the veterans of the chapter, and because they're in TDA their weapon options suddenly become so restricted where their PA bretheren can almost have a free-reign over what equipment they take. Being able to mix traditional Assault and "Shooty" combinations is all well and good, but in my mind it is still restrictive. Bringing back combi-bolters to the squad would be a great thing, plus the ability to swap out weapons on an "arm by arm" basis as per the Space Wolves would bring in a lot of flexability and variations to the squad.

 

Deathwing Command Squads...:

... and I mean actual Command Squads, not the psuedo "upgrade one Deathwing Terminator to a ..." Command Squad. I've always been the opinion that when the Deathwing get deployed it's at the behest of someone within the Inner Circle, and there's a fair chance that the requestee will be coming alongside for the ride too. How does this differ from where it is now, it doesn't really - it just shifts a squad from Elites (or Troops) to being part of an HQ choice. However, the subsequent question maybe somewhat challenging - should Deathwing squads be floating around in regular DA lists without the presence of someone within the Inner Circle? If so, does this mean that Deathwing squads should be removed from Elites and taken as a HQ Command Squad choice for HQ choices in TDA, with the option of being opened up as Troops choices through the use of Belial / Master of the Deathwing? In essence this removes the need for hiking up the price of individual Deathwing squads to prevent them being over-used, as the restriction comes in the form of having to take a TDA HQ choice per squad in order to use them. Does it fit in with the fluff, to a certain extent it does (although anything can be argued for and against), but it also makes it a lot more restrictive if you're not planning on going all out by taking Belial.

 

Deathwing Roles:

Typically Deathwing do one thing in the fluff - they're there to deal with the Fallen. They have some knowledge of the fall of Calliban, and they most certainly know of their Fallen bretheren, and to me that's more than enough reason to tweak their special rules somewhat. Deathwing Assault as a rule is fine (not a fan of actually using it, but I've nothing against it), but it only fits in to a portion of their background. To me, it almost seems like having a Preferred Enemy special rule is the route to go, and subsequently restricting it to CSM (I seriously doubt anyone can come up with a good reason why they should have Preferred Enemy against Necrons, for instance). Otherwise, you have to start changing the underlying mission structures to introduce extra DW-orientated objectives and killpoints, which feels more like the providence of Apocalypse or Battle Missions if I'm honest. Otherwise I'm not sure what can be done to make them "more special".

 

I have to say, I'm not a fan of tweaking the individual stat lines of the squads, or of the introduction of too much fancy DA-specific weaponry. I think there's more than enough wargear within the standard marine codex to please everyone - and we'll only end up with things like "Lion Claws", or something equally cliche / lazy :lol: Also, I can't seriously come up with a decent reason why Deathwing Terminators should be any more skilled or profficient than, say, a Wolf Guard in TDA, or a Blood Angels Terminator, or any other chapters Termnators - the only Terminators I can see as filling this are Grey Knight Termies, and that's a whole different kettle of fish.

 

Being able to assault after a Deep Strike may be good, but I get the feling this may be somewhat powerful (even too powerful). Termies as Troops, 5 squads total with 3 squads Deep Strike on first turn, get into combat and prey that the opponent isn't wiped out or run away (2nd turn combat prevents Termies being shot at in the opponents turn, and the subsequent combat should be enough to polish off the squad and be ready for the next DW turn).

[Isiah]

My own thoughts keep swirling round and round rather than forwards.

• What of the possibility of restoring Deathwing Honours as a means of representing the 'aspirational' element to the Deathwing. Squad sergeants could pick this as an item of wargear as they used to be able to.
  

 

But looking forwards a bit:

• Another idea, stolen shamelessly from Codex: SW, is to allow a lone DW termy to be embedded within a Greenwing squad. He's there both in his fallen-hunting (secret role) sniffing out leads as well as his internal 'aspirational warrior' role to stiffen fighting capability.
  
• As the DW are so central to the raison d'etre of the Chapter, I'm thinking there's no reason why any named infantry character should not have the ability to choose to fight in terminator armour. Thus Asmodia (please please reinstate GW), Ezekiel, but maybe not Azrael, should be teleport-capable in order to operate with the fallen-hunting elements.
  
• Deathwing Aspirants is there room for these? Maybe at last a role for the current Veterans who kinda sit within this awkward middle-ground anyway. Fight in power armour, and remain as Elites.
  

 

More later.

 

Cheers

I

[Arioch]

Isiah:

Im not quite sure if you can say that the members of the Deathwing is like mere bountyhunters. After all, the chapter does not hunt the fallen for some earthly reward, but to restore their tainted honour. In doing so they are truely ruthless, but still it is a matter of honour...

 

What is the Deathwing? I guess you could call them the knigths among knigths (if you know what I mean?). They are clad in the most heavy of armor, and are entrusted with the most powerfull weapons. I believe that they are the pride of their chapter, and every Dark Angel will figth hard to become one of them. They are merciless and relentless in their quest- the hunt for the holy... errh for the fallen :( .

 

I think one of the keywords here is versatility. Many ways of equiping them, as to make them able to fit into most rolles. And they need to hit harder than now offcourse, as they dont really seem to be that powerfull at the moment.

[Isiah]

Isiah:

Im not quite sure if you can say that the members of the Deathwing is like mere bountyhunters. After all, the chapter does not hunt the fallen for some earthly reward, but to restore their tainted honour. In doing so they are truely ruthless, but still it is a matter of honour...

 

That's a good point. I think I was trying to convey their focussed purpose. Granted, bounty-hunters might have been the wrong word.

[RayJ]

I will agree with Isiah that every member of the inner circle should be able to be fielded in TDA. I feel strongly that with the direction the system as a whole is going, we will be playing up the TDA angle very strongly once we see our new codex. I believe the entire chapter should revolve around bringing the Deathwing onto the field in some fashion, but I do not believe Deathwing should intermingle into other squads.

 

The Ravenwing should be the forward-moving team calling in support.

The tactical squad should be the objective-holding team calling in support.

The armory should be providing transport to the Deathwing through Land Raiders and Storm Ravens.

 

Deathwing should be elite and rare, but I still feel that EVERY Dark Angels list should use at least one squad (by choice and to reinforce fluff, not because its mandatory). As such, the unit needs to be made more durable, more powerful, and needs to synergize with more units in the army.

 

As far as rules based ideas to back this up, I have to say nay to Preferred Enemy (even just vs Chaos). The fallen are not necessarily members of chaos, and rules-wise this makes the chaplain obsolete.

 

Modification of Deathwing Assault and/or Heroic Intervention can lead to some dangerous design. I believe a mass terminator assault (off of a deep strike) on turn 1 could be going a little too far. While the Deathwing should probably be our best close combat unit, the threat needs to come from using a mixed force of arms (shooting and combat) and play up the history our chapter has endured on the battlefield as well as any new fluff that comes our way.

 

I like the idea of including more options for inner circle play in the rules. Define a progression from neophyte to grand master in the fluff, and show it in the force organization. It's not something that is even remotely difficult to achieve. Our warrior monks should be the pinnacle of order and discipline on the tabletop, using their tiered/layered approach to training, combat maneuvering, and command.

[Isiah]

Deathwing should be elite and rare, but I still feel that EVERY Dark Angels list should use at least one squad (by choice and to reinforce fluff, not because its mandatory).

 

Interesting. I kind of agree that having a mandatory DW squad might not be to everyone's taste but you're right there is a certain 'fluff logic' going on there.

 

Cheers

I

[CosmicBull]

A couple things to consider:

 

1. If Deathwing are so expensive (or limited as a 0-1 option) as to be rarely played, why play DA? The remainder of the Codex will need to be sufficiently different from Codex: Space Marines . . . or you may as well play Codex: Space Marines. I'd prefer to keep Deathwing reasonably priced and integral to DA army builds.

 

2. Building on my last point, Deathwing should continue to be Troops if Belial is taken; but count as Scoring Units if an Interrogator Chaplin (in TDA) or Leadership 10 Librarian (in TDA) is taken. Of course, we'll need a customizable Leadership 10 Librarian other than Zeke.

 

3. Deathwing Assault + Heroic Intervention? This combination has the benefit of using existing rules . . . and makes DA terminators different from other terminators.

 

4. Standard wargear should mimic Chaos Terminators (heresy, I know): Terminator Armor, POWER SWORD (rather than fist), and Storm Bolter. This should help keep the cost down. Might synergize better with Heroic Intervention as well. Also, considering my next point, this will make Deathwing Terminators very customizable.

 

5. As with current rules, Deathwing squads should be able to mix-and-match shooty and choppy wargear. Terminators may upgrade to Power Fist & Storm Bolter, Power Sword & Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield, or Twin Lightning Claws for appropriate points. Allow combi-weapon upgrades (storm bolter isn't really necessary on a relentless platform anyway). Conform all wargear options to Codex: Space Marines.

 

The above changes would make for a FEARSOME unit. Deathwing Assault, Heroic Intervention, Customizable Wargear, and Combi-Weapons. Just think of the alpha strike options! An obvious downside will be the lack of grenades when using Heroic Intervention.

 

Possible Force Multipliers: Interrogator Chaplins grant the "fleet" special rule to the squad they are in; Leadership 10 Librarians have a "Gate of Infinity" psychic power (best for shooty Terminators); Bikes with the Scout special rule and teleport homers. All of these are designed to help get the Terminators where they need to be.

 

Other Thoughts: What about allowing Relic Blades? Or allowing Terminators to exchang their storm bolter for a bolt pistol (to get the +1A for Power Sword Termies)?

 

CosmicBull

[RayJ]

CosmicBull's comments...

 

1) While Isiah and I want the unit to be more costly and more powerful (note that a cost increase is NECCESSARY if you make the unit more powerful), I personally do NOT want to remove them as the focus from the codex. My opinion is that by giving the rest of the codex the appropriate cost reductions, a points increase on Deathwing will balance out and allow us a truly flavorful army.

 

2) This idea is interesting and worth taking a look at, but is mostly outside what is needed to make the Deathwing operate according to their prowess in the fluff.

 

3) You are correct that this has the benefit of not doing anything new, but being new for terminators. I believe the alpha strike potential from this combination is much higher than you are realizing. Imagine this scenario:

 

- DA player gets first turn.

- DA player deploys Ravenwing aggressively & scouts aggressively

- Opponent fails to seize initiative

- DA player plops down 3+ DW squads within 3-5 inches of the enemy's line (bikes are 12 inches out after scout, 6 inches for homer, width of center target's base on deep strike and width of additional model on outside ring gets us REALLY close)

- RW units move and destroy 2-3 transports with melta/multi-melta

- DW Assaults 2-3 infantry units and all but wipes them in a single turn

 

Result: Opponent has lost 1/2 his army or more before getting a chance to roll the dice. Let's steer clear of this scenario, please.

 

4) using Power Weapons as standard mimics not just Chaos, but also Space Wolves. I don't want to go there personally. While I like customization, I'd much prefer to see something different. I'm thinking that other than just opening up combi-weapons, we'd have to "rediscover" some ancient weaponry that the other chapters don't have access to (for both melee and ranged combat).

 

5) Mix and Match has been the DA todo for a while now. I see no reason to change that. I simply do not want our unit to be mimicked by Chaos and Space Wolves (or vice versa).

 

I don't want to sound like I discount your ideas completely. You're opening some new ground which will be interesting to develop. I think I won't get quite the uniqueness I want in the end, as we will have Grey Knights to look at before long too. I see GKs running around with relic blades and storm bolters and getting 2+1 attacks, with a 5 Weapon Skill. It's gonna be hard not to ask for a lot more out of Deathwing if that becomes the case (early rumors point at that already)

[TyrionTheImp]

4) using Power Weapons as standard mimics not just Chaos, but also Space Wolves. I don't want to go there personally. While I like customization, I'd much prefer to see something different. I'm thinking that other than just opening up combi-weapons, we'd have to "rediscover" some ancient weaponry that the other chapters don't have access to (for both melee and ranged combat).

 

I've been pondering about this for a while. It seems all the other SM books have a special melee weapon just for them (in the cases of SW, 2 of them). Relic blades, Wolf Claws, Frost Blades, Glaives Encarmine are all chapter-specific weapons (Sort of), so why not give Deathwing Sergeants Heavenfall blades? Not precisely sure what they should do, but something that fits with the fluff and idea for hunting the Fallen.

 

For range fighting I was thinking something like special issue ammunition for storm bolters in addition to like storm bolter combi's, not entirely new, but it could be very unique to the Deathwing.

 

These sorts of upgrades will allow Deathwing to fill the niches left by vanguard and Sternguards for the Dark Angels. Of course, I don't like Company Vets at all and opposed to them almost entirely being in the codex so I can't see them being the "fill in units" for normal vets. Making Deathwing fill roles for Sternguard and Vanguard vets in C:BA and C:SM makes them almost a must have for C:DA and make everyone use them.

 

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[CosmicBull]

Ray J-

 

Excellent points. I have a few follow-up thoughts:

 

1) Cost. Given that Deathwing provide much of the flavor to a DA army, they should be a viable unit selection in low-point games. For this reason, I still think Deathwing need to be reasonably costed (i.e., about 200 points). I understand that you and Isiah want our Termis to be awesome, but I want them to be playable too.

 

2) Codex Theme. Given that Blood Angels and Space Wolves have the assaulty side of Space Marines covered, perhaps the DA should be the shooty Space Marines.

 

3) Unit Theme. If we accept the proposition that DA should be the shooty Space Marines, should the Deathwing be a shooty unit (with counter assault capability) or a choppy unit (they do have lots of power weapons)? Based on your comments about Grey Knights with Relic Blades and Weapon Skill 5 (i.e., quite choppy), I'm now inclined to increase the "shootiness" of DA Terminators as a way of making them unique. Perhaps Ballistic Skill 5 and more Heavy Weapons (2 HWs per 5 men)? Does this fit with the fluff? Always outmanned, never outgunned. In addition, consider Special Issue Ammunition for the storm bolters and an auspex for the Sergeant. Alternatively, if we want to play up the "plasma fetish" side of DA, consider allowing terminators to exchange storm bolters for plasmaguns, as well as allowing plasma cannons as a heavy weapons option. Our TDA will need to ignore the "Gets Hot" rule, of course. :rolleyes:

 

4) Heroic Intervention. I agree that Deathwing Assault + Heroic Intervention + Bikes w/ the Scout special ability is likely overpowered. In addition, Heroic Intervention is inconsistent with "shooty" terminators, should that be the focus of the DA Codex.

 

5) Force Multipliers. If shooty terminators are emphasized, then a gate of infinity type psychic power becomes a great force multiplier. Doubly so if Special Issue Ammunition is used and / or more heavy weapons are allowed.

 

6) Refine These Ideas. Discount them, tweak them, critique them . . . we all want unique, playable Terminators afterall.

 

CB

[Darkangeldentist]

Before I post exactly what I'd like Deathwing to be in light of recent books I need to preface and explain my thinking. Firstly I feel Deathwing should appear in most Dark angel lists. They are iconic elements of the chapter so I want them to be able to fit into armies. Next is to build upon what the last book got right. Deathwing assault is a good rule and used well gives a very potent tactical advantage, also it brought the focus back to the Deathwing's role as hunters of the Fallen. I want to keep the this rule and focus is possible. Deathwing are not only famous for their fearless nature but also resilience and indefateguable contistution. Contrary to this though is also the fact that in general they have/are always described as terminators, requiring them not to exceed other chapters terminators in terms of damage output of skill.

 

The basis for how I came to this represention takes it's origin (loosely) from the space wolf codex. Specifically 'lone wolves' the justification for their unique abilities are a combination of grief, rage and determination consecrated by grave oaths taken to cement their purpose. This rings a note with the Deathwing's vows to hunt the fallen and to never yield. Thus I propose we take this extension of the Deathwings legendary stubborness and make Deathwing squad true immovable objects able to withstand the most punishing fire or assaults and still complete their missions. (Aka Deathwing.) It would also be nice to make each weapon combination individualise each terminator slightly in memory of the characters from that epic saga. Each Deathwing terminator is a hero of the chapter and one who has vowed never to fall in battle as long as his mission is incomplete. They bridge the gap between veterans of the chapter and it's commanders.

 

Ok...sorry for the extensive preamble I hope it explains my thinking behind this.

 

Deathwing terminator squad: 300pts

 

WS BS S T W I A Ld Save

4 4 4 4 2 4 2 9 2+

 

Special rules: Fearless, Deathwing assault, Eternal warrior, Swords of the inner circle

 

Deathwing assault remains the same from the current codex.

 

Swords of the inner circle: Dark angels favour swords as potent symbols as well as weapons. Many of their most finely crafted and potent weapons are swords, the most famous of which is probably the sword of secrets. When given command of a squad of Deathwing the sergeant is frequently given an exquiste blade, perfectly balanced and weighted, it enhances the wielder's skill and abilities beyond their normal proficiency. The bearer benefits from +1 WS and +1 attack.

 

Weapons: The unit is armed with storm bolters and powerfists (sergeant has a power sword). Any model may replace their weapons for a pair of lightning claws or a thunder hammer and storm shield at +5pts, their powerfist for a chainfist at +5pts.

 

One terminator may swap their storm bolter for a heavy flamer at +5pts

One other terminator may either;

swap their storm bolter for an assault cannon at +30pts

take a cyclone missile launcher at +30pts

 

All weapons and wargear use the current rules as found in Codex: Space marines.

 

The unit is pretty similar to the current unit in terms of construction. 5 man only with options for all terminator weapons. The swords of inner circle rule is there to encourage use of a power sword. Which is why the WS buff is tied to the blade rather than the sergeant. A strength bonus might work but that feels too familiar with the space wolves frost blades, a relic blade would be too much. The huge rise in price is because of those extra wounds and eternal warrior. They actually cost slightly more individually than a lone wolf with the same gear but don't have feel no pain or beastslayer. However they will benefit from wound allocation and additional deployment options. The rest of their stats are still that of regular terminators as is their damage output which keeps them comparable in all but toughness to other chapters terminators. The fixed unit size is also a factor in limiting potency.

 

This may be a bit much and I can see taking away eternal warrior but I do not think this will be necessary. This would be a unit to be feared. :)

[rotwulf]

I honestly love my deathwing, and I love the idea of deathwing. The elite of the elite standing seperate to do battle where their lesser brothers dare not tread.

 

I think the fixes for deathwing are actually small, because the core is solid.

 

Belial - our hero should continue to make termies a troop choice. He needs to have his weapon skill increased to by 1. Also, he is allowed to pick what weapons he has at the beginning of a battle. He has access to the best equipment of the deathwing, he should be able to pick his gear as a reaction to who he is fighting. I would like to see an option for him carrying a heavy weapon, like an assault cannon or a plasma cannon. Another, interesting option would be to be able to field him as a dreadnought.

 

A true command squad - I would like to see a true command squad for Belial, serving as a retinue so our hero can not be picked out. Upgrade to the new feel no pain rules, as that brings us in line with other space marine armies. Include an upgrade for a techmarine. They would continue to be a HQ choice.

 

Deathwing Assault - allow us to deep strike half our squads, with only a d6 deflection similar to the blood angels rules. It would encourage players to be bold with their squads. No deepstrike then assault, but perhaps being allowed to shoot and then make a consolidation move to spread out and not die to ap 2 pieplates. Give every Deathwing squad a 6'' area effect that allows a rerolled leadership check for friendly units. These guys are meant to be inspiring, and you don't want to show weakness in front of them either. Lastly, a more unrealistic metawise option is to allow weapons swaps at the beginning of the game. Deathwing would pick the best weapon to deal with a foe.

 

Increase Land Raider capacity to 12, so Belial can ride with his command squad. Perhaps have an 'ancient' land raider with special rules or more options for a command squad.

 

Increase our variety of dreadnoughts, and allow us to field venerable ones similar to the new marine codex.

 

Bring weapons in line with new space marine codex gear.

 

Where I play, my deathwing are feared. In one tournament, they faced guard, orcs, and chaos forces. Through three fights, I lost only five terminators. After that, their appearance at games has left them as 'legends'.

[march10k]

I'm in general agreement, and would like to throw out some possibilities:

 

Perhaps a limit of 1 per HQ choice, with a DW-pure and DW/RW option in FW rulebooks?

 

To make them more elite, perhaps FNP standard, in addition to being able to charge on DWA (DWA is for all squads if desired, in light of the effective 0-2 limit)

 

That's in addition to giving them the C:UM stormshields (perhaps a limit of 3 termies per weapons loadout, in order to limit the number of 3++ saves to 3/5?) and maybe a two-handed thunderhammer (S10, no stormshield), relic lightning claws (S5), or heavenfall blade (S6, mastercrafted) for the sergeant.

[rotwulf]

I would stay away from getting rid of pure deathwing or pure ravenwing armies. Without those options, we don't have anything to set us apart from codex space marine.

 

Also just bumping up the power of our termies is not the answer. Upgraded gear might be nice for a command squad though.