Restoring a feared Deathwing?

[Isiah]

I understand that you and Isiah want our Termis to be awesome, but I want them to be playable too.

 

'Awesome' in the fluff sense too remember :). Not just needfully overpowered but vastly different in character from other Chapters' first companies. Besides I don't think there's any harm in trying to replicate their status as being some of the "finest warriors in the Imperium". That can take many forms.

 

There is always a real difficulty in matching fluff to tabletop capability. There are only so many levers one can pull or outlandish special rules to make up (who'd of though of deep striking Land Raiders :D).

 

But the purpose of this topic was originally one of a debate on what you want our DW to be. Once that's sorted then attempt the tabletop matchup.

 

Here are a few pointers I've been pondering:

• More Heroic poster boys in the 'classical' 40K sense? No
  
• Revealing a darker side with possibly some minimal psychic ability? Yes
  
• More single-purpose i.e. a bit like DH are to their nemesis foes, so the DW should be? Yes
  
• Available as a pure army? Yes/debatable
  
• More closely aligned with the HQs (somehow)? Undecided
  
• Much more or much less integrated with the rest of the Chapter? Undecided
  

 

I'll be first up and say I'm not a huge fan of the legacy Calabanite knights thing and so far neither are GW it would seem. There already too many knightly/questing/crusading chapters around as it is I reckon. Yes I do realise we are on a quest of sorts too – but ours is a bit more surreptitious to external eyes. I am a fan of turning them into the grim underbelly of the DA, consumed by Fallen hatred and guilt to the point of breaking, not in the crazed sense of the BA's Death Company, but in a cold, obsessive and callous manner. In this they are closely honed to fever-pitch by the Chaplaincy and Librarius.

 

The issue of the small game costing factor is an interesting one and so is the SW's Lone Wolf approach. Join the two concepts together. Is it appropriate that the DW could be fielded individually as mini-characters and what role fluff-wise would he thus represent? Or in smaller 'snatch squads' down to say, three in strength?

 

Cheers

I

[rotwulf]

I like the idea of a darker side. It would be intersting if deathwing could shoot into friendly squad in combat.

 

As for minor psychic powers, I dislike that because we start copying grey knights at that point.

 

I like general purpose myself.

 

I like the idea of a pure army as well, some missions are too important / scary for the normal marines. Also it really does set us apart from everyone else.

 

I think Belial needs to remain. It follows the current 40k trend of having characters modify rules. It makes it easier for games, seeing Belial in a list means your opponent doesn't have to guess if Terminators are troops or not.

 

As for integration, I am undecided. I do like the idea of three man teams for small games.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

No to psychic ability, that is GK territory and theirs alone.

 

I think that Belial needs to remain and keep him as he is, except give him an Iron Halo, eternal warrior and WS 6

 

Definetly make them darker and harder. They need to be a a hard-hitting force that appears, shoots, charges, and it's all over. No matter what force they are fighting. I think that, to keep rarity, they need to be a limited choice, 0-2, I think. Unless you have Belial, then it's as many squads as you can fit in.

 

mini-characters? Possibly...perhaps you could field 5 man squads, never more than 5, and then you could 'add' a termie to your command squads, or maybe tactical, but I think that you only need to add them to the command squad. But that just my thoughts.

 

And we need a termie command squad, not just 'upgrades' but a proper termie command squad, that can only be fielded with Belial in the army, or Azrael as he is is the Supreme GM.

 

Perhaps Asmodai could have a personal bodyguard of termies?

 

Just my thoughts...

[Kingin]

ok TBH some peoples ideas were good. I've loved Dark Angels for long time, and also Played DeathWing DA and now playing RavenWing.

 

Ya I can understand that Heroic assault is nasty, but give it to one squad. Baliel should be able to give the unit hes with Heroic assault, and thats it. So you only get one unit that assault from Deep strike but raise the price a bit. Also please for love of god make him more killy in combat! and also The RavenWing (get to them later)

 

DeathWing, to understand DeathWing we must understand Dark Angels!

 

Dark Angels

I would love to get the fluff back / or new rule for them, called Hunt for the Fallen. This should give them Fearless, or some special Rule that makes them not give up. Because thats what Dark Angels are, their Stubborn and they will never give one inch without them dying which I loved in the old Codex. Also for the love of GOD please make the points for Dark Angels Plasma weapons cost less! That is one of our Iconic weapon PLASMA! So pretty much Dark Angels never give up always hunt for fallen and just loves plasma!

 

DeathWing

Like said above should love to see at least the squad with Belial have the heroic assault, Space Marines can have 3 squads with that why can't we too?! I would love to see them get updated, and have a special rule or 2. I don't want my Terminators to get over powered but don't want them underpowered. I would say give them the aka bloodtalons but make them Lion Claws, which would make them stand out, or twick the ruling a bit for them. I really don't like having other chapters wargear but that would give our terminators more fluff and powerful. Also we should have 2 different units of Terminators, assaulty and Shooty.

 

The Shootie ones can take 2 Heavy Weapons Plasma cannons or assault cannons or heavy flamers. Also the Assaulty have the Lion claws aka Blood Talons, and mix Thunder Hammer Shield. Or just mix both Units together and keep them one unit but have them able to get more gear. They are the commando types of Dark Angels.

 

RavenWing!

Ok I love the fluff of RavenWing but too many people keep telling me play Codex marines and I don't want to! For them they def need new stuff. Sammiel on Jet Bike is good but wish they get rid of the plasma get hot for him i keep getting that for him.

 

Also I believe that RavenWing need the Hit and Run special Rule, and Fearless! Also give them BOTH PISTAL AND CHAINSWORD!! NOT PISTOL OR CHAINSWORD!!!!

 

Also give Sammiel's land Speeder a relic or something to have him able to not get one shot always! Also I would love to have him able to hit back in combat if he has a sword why doesn't he USE IT!!!

 

So ruling for RaveWing, Make them COST LESS!!!! Give them Hit and Run, Scouting is theres, give them the option to actually get a extra close combat weapon and not a pistol or Chainsword. make the Land Speeder for Sammiel like have cover save, or just have him to fight back when someone charges him or something. Also RavenWing should have preferd enemy because their the scouts and hunters of the fallen! DeathWing helps when needed. RavenWing are the real boys going out looking DeathWing stays home waiting for the phone call to help out.

 

Thanks for reading

[Kingin]

sry double post

[rotwulf]

Kingin I like several of your ideas, but I think we are all suffering from the idea of 'thats cool...I want that' when we look at other peoples codexes. I think Blood Angels is a good codex to look at for a baseline of what we can expect.

 

Upgraded characters (Good HQ's, but also special terminator sergeants or riders)

Alternate troop choices (Termies and Bikes)

'Elite' or 'Special' versions of those troop choices (Special non-scoring super terminators as elite choices and Special non-scoring bikes as elite choices)

New Vehicles that are watered down apocalypse rules (I think a super land raider and keep the super raven speeder but be able to take more than one)

Dreadnought variations (I would like to see vet dreads that stand out)

Signature weapons (ours would be plasma...so cheaper plasma weapons or non-overheat plasma at current costs)

[Decoy]

Sign me up for a "highly elite" status. As in, 0-3 squads, up to ten men per. Troops with Belial. Wolf Guard loadout for weaponry, maybe something special in terms of weaponry. Possibly something like... I don't know... furious charge, maybe. Lowered wargear costs will allow for diversity, while increased overall model price will counterbalance any rules increases.

 

To be honest, I'm sick to death of seeing "Lawl 60 terminators" for EVERY GODDAMN D.A. ARMY I've ever faced. Make 'em elite, make 'em dead 'ard. But for the love of the Gods, how about treating the rest of the army right as well, so Greenwing and Ravenwing are viable and I don't have to I5-6 my way through over half the D.A. first company every time I play against 'em.

[lost_angel]

tbh I think it would only take a few minor adjustments in pints values and updated wargear to bring a lot of the shine back into our termies. Although I agree completely with the earlier suggestion of giving them sternguard special ammo and/or combi weapons and a bonafide command squad.

 

Isiah. there's one point you made in particular which I think could definitely warrant more attention.

 

More closely aligned with the HQs (somehow)? Undecided

 

The BA codex sets a good precedent for this. Notably with chaplains - who's full potential is generally unlocked when attached to Death Company.

 

Conversely, with Deathwing already being Fearless, some of our Interrogator Chaplain's benefits (which seem a little tame these days compared to the characters in newer 'dexes) are mitigated just by joining this particular squad.

I fail to see why our own characters (specifically Interrogator Chaplains) cannot gel with certain units (i.e. Deathwing) in a similar fashion. For example:

 

"Any Deathwing unit that the interrogator chaplain is currently attached to never takes additional Fearless wounds as a result of losing a combat."

 

Heaven only knows what kind of price bump an IC would get to confer something like this but Characters in general have been getting more characterful, formidable and expensive of late so applying this rule probably wouldn't be as much of a stretch as one might initially think.

 

Another possibility could be to allow Deathwing units purchased as Elite squads to take an upgrade in the form of a ranking Inner Circle member (Libby or Int Chaplain) for xxx points.

 

Just a thought.

 

R

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

A true command squad - I would like to see a true command squad for Belial, serving as a retinue so our hero can not be picked out. Upgrade to the new feel no pain rules, as that brings us in line with other space marine armies. Include an upgrade for a techmarine. They would continue to be a HQ choice.

A Techmarine will never be asked to join the Inner Circle. Their vows to the AM preclude them from that. They are valued Battle-Brothers, but cannot be trusted with the secret of the Fallen.

 

I would like to see Interrogator-Chaplains giving a specific bonus to the Deathwing (and Ravenwing if on a bike). I like that idea, as it reinforces the connection they have in the fluff. Also, I do like the idea of an upgrade character for squads, but I don't know how it would be handled.

 

I'd rather avoid super-super squads for the DW. I think the codex should emphasize the fact that the Deathwing is a company full of heroes, each and every one, not just 1 Super Squad and the Back-Up Dancers. :) I do like the idea of increasing the grittiness factor of our Deathwing. Just like any 1st company, they fight only the toughest enemies, but their enemies are also their former brothers. Seems to me like that would an element of maybe not tragedy, but seriousness. Idk, just talking.

 

BTW Decoy, the most terminators we can fit into a DW list is 47. SWs can actually take more in their Puppywing.

[Grand Master Neo]

And we need a termie command squad, not just 'upgrades' but a proper termie command squad, that can only be fielded with Belial in the army, or Azrael as he is is the Supreme GM.

 

Perhaps Asmodai could have a personal bodyguard of termies?

 

Just my thoughts...

 

this is going along the lines i was thinking by trying to bring in a deathwatch killteam to the fray within the new dex when they finally get round to releasing it

[Grand Master Neo]

Dark Angels

I would love to get the fluff back / or new rule for them, called Hunt for the Fallen. This should give them Fearless, or some special Rule that makes them not give up. Because thats what Dark Angels are, their Stubborn and they will never give one inch without them dying which I loved in the old Codex. Also for the love of GOD please make the points for Dark Angels Plasma weapons cost less! That is one of our Iconic weapon PLASMA! So pretty much Dark Angels never give up always hunt for fallen and just loves plasma!

 

if this is the case then i would have to find a way to get rid of the overheat rule as it can be a be**ch when it happens and surely fluff wise if we have access to the oldest technology in the imperium we should at least understand it and know how to control it properly

[Kobrakei]

Just to throw something a little extra in here as I love where this is going...How about abilities that can be purchased to show how deep into the Inner Circle the Deathwing squad are? I'd assume that the first squad in the company would know much more than the newly promoted marines and as such would have much more experience in hunting the Fallen, which would be nice to represent. just provide a list of USR's or a list of special rules and charge points for abilities. Depending on the abilities and the amount purchased you could always have the unit move about in the FOC.

 

Kobrakei

[Kingin]

I would love like said before those changes. Or at least a point less because having so little and at times do so little isn't my favorite thing. Also they should at least for love of god need a extra close combat weapon on a Biker! THEIR ALMOST VETS!!! AND THEY CAN"T DRIVE A BIKE AND USE A SWORD?!!! sorry I always get stuck in combat when I was supposed to win, 6 bikers against 4 Long Fangs ya guess what happend? end of game 2 bikers 3 longfangs... ya.

 

If they gave bikers hit and run, I would love that better then anything, maybe little more then their scout move, and I LOVE THAT MOVE!

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Back to the whole idea of 'what are the Deathwing?' I hve been thinking about it a lot, and i think that I have found the answer. We know that they are cold, callous, ruthless, relentless warriors that persue the enemies of the chapter without mercy and also appear when they are needed, kill everything, and then leave. They only take orders fron the inner circle, not from any other SM chapter Master or IG commander.

 

There is one unit in our own history, one force that I can think of that resembles this. The german SS of WW2. These guys were THE elites, had accsess to the best weaponry, were cold, ruthless, relentless, brutal. They took orders only from their superiors, the German elite inner circle.

 

This, to me, resembles what I believe the Deathwing are. Elite, ruthless, relentless, powerful, awe-inspiring and fear-inspiring.

[Brother Degas]

Im new to 40K and DA so apologies if Im talking rubbish but this is an intresting thread.

 

I agree with most of Bohemonds post but wouldnt compare them to the SS, they arent a police force. They are more akin to special forces troops. Single minded/mission orientated, devastating in combat (open warfare or clandestine), flexible and capable of tackling any enemy and I think any squad make up needs to reflect this.

 

Tactically I think that they would avoid direct confrontation if at all possible prefering to surprise the enemy by appearing in the midst of the carnage, leveling everyone and everything not part of the DA.

 

How this is translated into rules I have no idea....

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The SS were not a 'police force', that was the gestapo.

 

The SS were the stormtroopers, elite of the elite, they had panzers, had planes, they had accsess to the best wargear that the 3rd Reich had accsess to.

 

This is what the DW are, elite of the elite, ruthless, cold and turn up, kill everything, and then leave. They have all the beast wargear available to them that the Imperium can offer. This is similar to the SS, who also turnred up, killed the enemy and left. They held up the allies for a while, and if they had had enough fuel, then they could have won, or at least cost us more. SS commanders were also put in charge of other units, this is similar to members of the DW taking command of squads, or groups of your normal battle-brothers. So through this, I see a resemblance with the SS and with the Israeli spec ops. They are special forces, with a ruthless touch, in history these two forces are the most similar.

[Brother Degas]

Good point.

[publius]

How this translates to the tabletop I don't know. Should the DW become more focussed on Fallen activities at the expense of anybody else? Already the DA have a reputation for disappearing on secret missions – could that apply to the DW too when they should be supporting their greenwing brethren? Circles within circles and all that.

 

I don't know, the fallen backstory is fine but I remember and really love the Deathwing as they were presented in the "Deathwing" short story, from William King, in which they are the peerless warriors who go around the galaxy fighting monsters and facing horrors lesser men would quail at (see the "Plains World Special Characters" link in my sig).

 

I'd be more than a little disappointed if they became "professional fallen hunters", and if their ability to be fielded alone

went away. However other people like their dark gothic nature so that should be reflected in their background, and in their rules.

 

I'm also more liberal about allowing other chapters to field terminator-only detachments. After all, Space Hulk should suggest that this happens with other chapters, even those with fewer suits (though admittedly the Blood Angels are almost as old as the DA so it makes sense that they would be better able to do so, than a recently founded chapter). If I can see an appropriate model, most codexes now allow people to field a good dedicated close combat squad, but only Blood Angels can field Death Company.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

So, we need a DW who go around battling the dark, yet have a stain on their honour that they wish to erase. They are warriors without peer and are ruthless in their quest to expunge the stain. They have the oldest and most powerful tech available to man and they utilise this to their advantage. They appear when needed, in the darkest hour and answer only to the supreme council.

 

So, noble and honourable, yet dark, ruthless and mysterious. I love these guys. There must be a way to field them...

[Isiah]

Hmm been away for a few days –– turning into a great topic. Can we be careful about bringing real life examples in though especially a certain elite {german} outfit from WWII. Nothing wrong with a factual example if it helps make a point in the topic but it's an extremely sensitive issue so go careful.

[m_r_parker]

Another possibility could be to allow Deathwing units purchased as Elite squads to take an upgrade in the form of a ranking Inner Circle member (Libby or Int Chaplain) for xxx points.

This idea I like, and have been somewhat thinking about over the past few days. Considering the level of paranoia within the Inner Circle, I suspect that even the Deathwing would have to have some level of observation to ensure that they don't learn too much, and wouldn't be out of the question for a member of the squad (the Sergeant being the obvious choice) being one of the Inner Circle, bu not yet trusted or experienced enough to become a Company Master or Interrogator Chaplain within their own right.

 

How this could be done on the tabletop: Make it an option for all Deathwing squads to upgrade their Sergeant to be 'Inner Circle'. Stats increase of +1 to WS, BS, W, I, A & Ld - thus making them a halfway house between regular Deathwing Terminators, and full HQ choices. Could be broken down into three different types of IC member, with points costed accordingly:

• Cheapest would be a regular upgrade with no additional special rules, representing an aspirant who is aiming to become a Company Master. Maybe would need some small special rule, again using something already mentioned in this thread, maybe the ability to ignore no-retreat wounds.
  
• Next would be a Chaplain upgrade, although not quite an Interrogator in their own right yet and still have to prove themsleves. Would be given a Rosarius as standard (crozius, power weapon, same difference), and gains the usual Chaplain rules.
  
• Last would be a Librarian upgrade, again depicting a Librarian who is still going through their training. Comes with a Force Weapon and Psychic Hood as standard, and is a psyker with 1 psychic ability per turn (no Epilastory upgrade).
  

Certainly gives them that level of edge in combat, and with the constant upping of psychic ability in the new codices the Librarian upgrdes would certainly fit, as well as providing decent Hood coverage with their reduced ranges. Plus it seemingly fits some of the background as well, and provides a link between the 'regular' Deathwing members and the Inner Circle.

 

Maybe for a full Deathwing Command Squad attached to Belial, all members of the squad can be upgraded as above (although 0-1 restrictions on the Chaplain and Librarian upgrades). After all, he would be looking for the best to be in the 1st squad (but would be a killer unit in terms of points cost and abilities).

[Arioch]

Parker:

But...as a member of the inner circle you have been accepted as worthy to hear the secrets of the chapter. There may be a few only known to Ezekiel and Azrael, but thats it and there is no way they can learn those secrets anyway. Deathwing are trusted. Chaplins are not given terminator armor, as they are not members of the inner circle. Only interrogator-chaplain are. If we field a aspirant liberian, why not just make him a character in his own rigth? Sorry I just dont see it making much sence. But the improved sergeant may be a good idea.

[Lorenzen]

to be honest the only way i could see the deathwing being as awesome fluff wise as they should be.. is we had a vastly smaller army..

 

imagine one termie per force organization spot.. and you're on the right tracks to what im thinking.. sarges in elites, "normal" termies in the troop section, assaulters in fast attack, and heavy weapons in (duh) heavy support.

 

throw in belial, some interrogators and a few librarians, with named versions of each.. and youve got one badass army of badassery.

 

for a more "normal" perspective i wrote a post on upgraded termies etc in another part of this forum, including my ideas for a proposed squad set up and a named character ala the upgrade characters..

 

though personally id like to see us with like 15 models on the table and being a force to be truly feared, but not overpowered.

[konrad1]

though personally id like to see us with like 15 models on the table and being a force to be truly feared, but not overpowered.

something like 2+ AS with reroll?

 

I sense too much fantasy in this... DW are in 5 men squads, 1HW each. They are not individuals like Wolf guard so no mixing equipment on them.

It`s their force organization...

 

I don`t like this fan-codexes and stuff like that... It`s like "I play this army, I want everything on everyone and noone else can have it"

 

Sorry for interuption :D

[Lorenzen]

im just wish listing.. even in the stuff i wrote in the other topic is just wish listing for what the next dex "could" do.

 

im fully aware of the fluff of the deathwing and how they opperate.. but in accordance with the fluff of the actual game.. the game shows only a small part of the overall battlefield.. and as we all know people die along the way, get split up etc etc.. which is why always having squads of 5 forever is a bit shifty.. plus if done right the single model per slot could work fine.. similar to the old armoured company rules where you needed a tank ace to field extra leman russ's etc.. so your troops were limited by your elites.. whos to say this couldnt be done in a tier system?

 

1 sarge - option for 2 "troop" deathwing - per 2 troop may take 1 fast attack and heavy.. (bare in mind im spitballing with this.)

 

nobody likes unbalanced fandex's but in some cases i feel i could write a more balanced/themed dex than certain people on gw's ward.

 

if you get the hint.. you get a gold star.