Restoring a feared Deathwing?

[Piousservant]

Interesting thread. I like the Deathwing and I have to say I think whatever else we should retain the ability to field "pure" DW/RW forces, as that is something which is fairly unique to the Dark Angels. Like the idea of allowing all Inner Circle members the option of TDA, that would be nice (plus new model options would be cool). On that note, I would like Fear of the Darkness back - especially after we lost it and then joe bloggs space marines got it instead. Personally, I think all our Librarian powers are naff so I'd like to see them changed/upgraded, at the very least in line with the SM codex. But that's a slight tangent...

 

A buff for Deathwing Terminators would be great, but I wouldn't want them to become (yet another) awesome close combat unit. Space Wolves and Blood Angels have the emphasis on the assault angle and it would be nice to see the Dark Angels take the "shootier" route - which I think fits with the background (at least in the sense there is no real reason for them to be extra-good at assault) and makes the difference between them and other codexs more profound (also, from a meta perspective if every codex has an extra-good assault unit then extra-good loses its meaning).

 

I think, going with the codex trend at the moment, the most fitting and easiest thing to do would be to give the DW a shooting buff via some kind of "special ammunition" (not necessarily the same options as the Sternguard - just having the "vengeance" rounds would be very appropriate or a new special ammo varient), plus a buff to make teleporting more accurate, similar to the Blood Angels "Descent of Angels". I think that would work quite nicely with a small points bump, without being too OTT. It wouldn't be quite as nasty as some people want but it would make the Deathwing distinct and a touch nastier than normal terminators, which is entirely appropriate.

 

If it was to go a little further, special rules wise, I guess something which strengthens the "Hunt the Fallen" aspect would be nice. Some sort of bonus against HQ choices/characters (or for killing - e.g. capturing them) would make sense as the army leader might not be a fallen but has info on the fallen which would explain the Deathwing presence. Problem with that is it might be a little complicated to implement. Alternatively, if you wanted a CC buff then Preferred Enemy against enemy independent characters might be an interesting idea that also fits with the above. Alternatively a fear-causing rule of some kind would be nice/appropriate I think (something like the BA Death Mask rule, or a minus to the Ld of enemy units within a close radius or something).

[krewl]

Carefull with the wishlisting, it's fun but not very realistic, so you might end up dissapinted. Especially as most of your wishes by themselves are way to powerfull, let alone combined.

 

I liked the idea DarkAngelDentist had, giving the unit an upgrade that makes them stay a bit longer onder overwhelming firepower.

I do think 2 wounds a guy is a bit to much though, especially with the wound allocation options that would be overpowered to fast.

 

I'd say we could get that same effect (Withstanding epic ammounts of firepower because they are so "Stubborn" )

with either feel no pain or an old (current) style apothecary (Or effect that works the same) in each unit that would be usefull only in this unit, not withing 6".

 

It would enhanche the ability to withstand massive low level firepower, but be unchanged against the stuff they'd have to die for. Eternal warrior and 2 wounds would mean you'd be able to (at worse level) shift arround 5 lascannon wounds and lose 0 models! That's just to powerfull even with the price hike. Having guns kill tanks in one shot, but a squad of termies shrugs of 5 hits? Unlikely.

 

And I know it's based on the SW codex price of the lone wolf, but those are limited in their use by beeing solo and maximum 3 guys.

An army of these guys would be a horror to fight. (trust me, I've faced mass blood crushers in deamon armie's and that's just 3 units of those guys...

 

I like the synergy idea's I have seen in this thread though. Things like an interrogator chaplain making you ignore no-retreat wounds. (As you already have fearless.).

 

If indeed the DA will be the shooty marines then DA termies should either get combi weapons OR sternguard ammo, especially not both at the same time (that's the wishlisting ). that with the new CML and our normal CC & shoorty mixing makes our termies unique enough without a huge price hike or overpowered combies.

 

I also like the decent of angels type rule, or (OR not AND) heroic intervention, but then only for the squad joined by Belial for example. This to prevent a devastating alfa strike. (We should still be beatable, every now and then :) ).

Keep the DWA rule that works fine and works ok in balancing the ammount of firepower that we can DWA turn 1.

 

What we can expect is hero hammer level guys, so I have no idea what they'll do, except that they will have WS6 probable.

I hope they'll have army changing effects. And seeing the BA, SW and SM codexes, many specials would be expected, so Asmodai and/or others are something I'd expect (I even hope for Namaan, even though he's dead. I always reply: So is Eldrad..)

 

I feel we can expect a strong showing in the next DA codex, but I do not know if Deathwing will indeed be the scary strong thing again people will fear. I do know that the current Deathwing rules combined with new wargear rules and a stronger psycher would be a pretty competative army already, so easy on the extra superpowers that we'd throw on the Deathwing... I feel a minimal tweak here and there would be enough to get them back on a scary place on the tabletop.

[konrad1]

I can not see any reason to make our terminators more special than the rest... I do not think DW are 2x better than any veteran from any other chapter.. Our speciality is that our entire 1st company has TDA, not that they are greater than Calagar or something like that...

And of course, if you wish a new cdex, than say good bye to old apothecary.. It is just the way new codexes are made.

 

Descent and/or some special skills, ammo... are ok, but other is just weird fantasy and absolutly unfluffy

 

Have a nice day

[Gillyfish]

This is a really interesting thread and it's turning up some really good ideas.

 

Let me add some more ideas to the mix and also discuss a bit about my rationale for them.

 

Firstly, let's look at the background of both the Deathwing and the Chapter, as a whole. In addition, let's consider the historical portrayal of both in game mechanics and army list. This demonstrates the following:

 

• The Deathwing are renowned across the Imperium and feared (there's a 2nd ed character piece about the Orks fearing the 'Deffwing')
  
• The Deathwing are seen as paragons to aspire to within the Chapter (the story of Two Heads Talking, etc.)
  
• The Deathwing are there to capture the Fallen, which means they are often committed to the hardest fighting and most dangerous parts of the battlefield
  
• The Deathwing suffer high casualty rates
  
• The Deathwing are not used exclusively to capture the Fallen or informants, but are still committed to the hardest parts of the fight
  
• They are known for striking by teleport
  
• The DA and the Deathwing are the 'psychological' Chapter (this sometimes gets seen as 'shooty' and, indeed, this can be a benefit, but manifests more usually in Stubborn/Fearless and the Fear of the Dark power)
  
• The DA were the first legion and have access to large quantities of archeotech/old technology
  

 

In addition, the DA have become known for having access to, essentially, three types of army list, one of which is Deathwing. I'd imagine that would be maintained.

 

Given this basis, perhaps some of the following ideas might be appropriate as representations of their fighting abilities.

 

1. Access to Chaos Terminator style weapons as well as Imperial ones (so combi-weapons and reaper autocannons alongside assault cannons and lightning claws)
   
2. Access to old technology (2nd ed used to have grenade harnesses for terminators, so maybe this could be added back to give them access to frag grenades?). Possibly special issue ammunition that hinders movement of an opponent might be appropriate.
   
3. The purpose of the Deathwing is to fight through heavily defended areas and capture the Fallen - this manifests itself through first turn pinpoint deep strikes and Fearless. However, this leaves the Deathwing vulnerable to being overwhelmed by numbers, so maybe the rule suggested by others of ignoring or limiting additional wounds in this way may be appropriate.
   
4. The Deathwing inspire heroism in their fellow marines and inspire fear in their opponents - this could be linked in with the above point and it could also provide a morale bonus (stubborn?) to Dark Angels within 6" (thanks to SG for this idea).
   
5. The high casualty rates suggest that not all the Deathwing will be the uber-powerful warriors that some are suggesting, but it may mean that there are some members of the Deathwing who have reached this level of ability. So maybe there should be a standard troops entry and an elite option of Deathwing veterans (who might have all of the above buffs instead of the standard Deathwing unit).
   

 

These are all possible options although implementing all of them might be over the top. I think fighting ability in terms of stats is less important than the impact their appearance should have. One on one they should not be a match for a Grey Knight, but they should be better than 'normal' terminators.

 

Just some more food for thought.

[Arioch]

Very fine analysis Gillyfish, I agree with fairly most of it. I think the deathwing, along with being fearless should have some way of causing fear throughout the enemies ranks (not to powerfull of course). Perhabs we could do this with a psychic power like fear of darkness (and awsome power that MUST return!).

 

I think the reason for the deathwings high causulty-rate is not due to them being lesser warrior, rather they are utterly fearless warriors that are thrown into the most brutal of combat. They are ghostwalkers, they have already accepted that they are dead, but they will go on no matter what they find. In such a state of mind (that nearly resembles the deathcompany of the BA, but without the madness) they simply advance upon the enemy, oblivious to their own losses our théir own safty. Its like the Angels of Vengeance chapter: They normally suffer heavy losses because they are reckless and refuse to accept defeat: None must prove to be their equal.

 

I can see that many people would like to see the DA (and thereby the deathwing) become the "shooty" chapter, as we have plenty chapters that focus on closecombat now. Its true that the DA could get a more unique feel from this, and it is true that we have had a certain connection to plasmaweapons. But I dont think we would do our primarch justice if we got overfocused at shooting. DA should always have a plenty of people able to use a sword, at least as good as any other chapter. Special ammo or combiweapons would be a nice touch though. I was looking at some old rules for Cypher and it struck me that as well as being a master with his pistols, his skills with a sword was not to be overlocked. Mainly because he had a superior initiativ, which made good sence, as he was a masterswordsman. I think that the DA should be good at another kind of closecombat than BA or SW. Where SW focusses on a very raw, but effective fightingstyle, I think the DA should be more refined and controlled, using ancient swordsmanship passed down through millenia. So maybe no particular meleskills, but a raised initiative. But not for regular terminators, that would be a little to much I think. Just a thougth

[CosmicBull]

I like how this thread is developing.

 

I've refined my ideas with respect to Deathwing plasma weapons as follows, which I think would add a "flavorful" option:

 

1) A Deathwing model may take a shoulder-mounted Plasmacannon as a heavy weapon option. The rules for such Plasmacannon should mirror the shoulder-mounted Missile Launcher (i.e., Heavy 2, and the model keeps his Storm bolter and PF).

 

2) Because the weapon is shoulder-mounted, the model ignores the "Get's Hot" rule. Alternatively, Deathwing units have (or can be upgraded to have) Feel No Pain and are still subject to the "Get's Hot" rule.

[krewl]

It's worth to note that shooty does not equal "we can not hit people in close combat because we have WS 2..." They are still Marines level in CC, so not bad at all.

 

If the bonus parts (Where we are better then normal terminators) is in the fearless and shooting our mixed weapons would make us powerfull in CC, but nothing several specialised CC units can not handle. So good in CC still, but just Marines level. As said, I love the picture in my mind of the boneclad terminators marching into a hail of shots and just clanking on.. as if there is nothing going on.

 

That, I feel, would be a good reason to fear those deathwing troopers. I'd fear them if I was shooting at them and the'd just march onto me like death incarnate. I love the ghostwalker reference, because to me that is what they are. They know they are already dead, and that is ok and makes them fearless. You can not hurt a dead man, so they have no fear.

[pueriexdeus]

Just thought Id throw this into the what if's.

 

Fury from the Skies, Deep Strike Shock

[publius]

This is a really interesting thread and it's turning up some really good ideas.

 

Let me add some more ideas to the mix and also discuss a bit about my rationale for them.

 

Firstly, let's look at the background of both the Deathwing and the Chapter, as a whole. In addition, let's consider the historical portrayal of both in game mechanics and army list. This demonstrates the following:

 

• The Deathwing are renowned across the Imperium and feared (there's a 2nd ed character piece about the Orks fearing the 'Deffwing')
  
• The Deathwing are seen as paragons to aspire to within the Chapter (the story of Two Heads Talking, etc.)
  
• The Deathwing are there to capture the Fallen, which means they are often committed to the hardest fighting and most dangerous parts of the battlefield
  
• The Deathwing suffer high casualty rates
  
• The Deathwing are not used exclusively to capture the Fallen or informants, but are still committed to the hardest parts of the fight
  
• They are known for striking by teleport
  
• The DA and the Deathwing are the 'psychological' Chapter (this sometimes gets seen as 'shooty' and, indeed, this can be a benefit, but manifests more usually in Stubborn/Fearless and the Fear of the Dark power)
  
• The DA were the first legion and have access to large quantities of archeotech/old technology
  

 

In addition, the DA have become known for having access to, essentially, three types of army list, one of which is Deathwing. I'd imagine that would be maintained.

 

Given this basis, perhaps some of the following ideas might be appropriate as representations of their fighting abilities.

 

1. Access to Chaos Terminator style weapons as well as Imperial ones (so combi-weapons and reaper autocannons alongside assault cannons and lightning claws)
   
2. Access to old technology (2nd ed used to have grenade harnesses for terminators, so maybe this could be added back to give them access to frag grenades?). Possibly special issue ammunition that hinders movement of an opponent might be appropriate.
   
3. The purpose of the Deathwing is to fight through heavily defended areas and capture the Fallen - this manifests itself through first turn pinpoint deep strikes and Fearless. However, this leaves the Deathwing vulnerable to being overwhelmed by numbers, so maybe the rule suggested by others of ignoring or limiting additional wounds in this way may be appropriate.
   
4. The Deathwing inspire heroism in their fellow marines and inspire fear in their opponents - this could be linked in with the above point and it could also provide a morale bonus (stubborn?) to Dark Angels within 6" (thanks to SG for this idea).
   
5. The high casualty rates suggest that not all the Deathwing will be the uber-powerful warriors that some are suggesting, but it may mean that there are some members of the Deathwing who have reached this level of ability. So maybe there should be a standard troops entry and an elite option of Deathwing veterans (who might have all of the above buffs instead of the standard Deathwing unit).
   

 

These are all possible options although implementing all of them might be over the top. I think fighting ability in terms of stats is less important than the impact their appearance should have. One on one they should not be a match for a Grey Knight, but they should be better than 'normal' terminators.

 

Just some more food for thought.

 

 

This seems like a pretty good compromise position, between the people who want Deathwing to be "cool" and the people who want to emphasize the hunt for the fallen.

 

Don't get me wrong, more than "special" wargear like plasma blasters, which do have precedent in 2nd edition, but 99% of the proposed changes seem to focus on increasing the killing power of Deathwing.

 

Its understandable, that's the factor that has the most immediate visible effect on the game, but I actually feel like a better way to represent Deathwing would be subtle, but powerful changes. Give them the flexibility of Chaos or Space Wolf terminators in both squad size and weapon options (Space Wolves/Chaos/Dark Angels all share the common trait of being among the oldest chapters anyways), but perhaps do something like making them fearless and yet immune to taking wounds when losing combat. Or change their reserve rolls or deep-striking ability, or give them feel no pain (this last seems dangerously close to Death Company though).

 

After all, remember that their few depictions in the fluff, and here I'm thinking of the Deathwing short story, is that they still have the gear of other Space Marine chapters, but they just do it better, either from skill or from just being so stubborn/fearless that only 30 of them can fight off an entire Genestealer invasion.

 

Admittedly writing rules for Deathwing and Ravenwing is a bit like arguing about pizza toppings; ask 10 people, get 11 answers :mellow: