I still can't beat Orks

[thade]

They are numerous and will either assault me come Turn 2 or just shoot me to pieces (getting out-shot by Orks as a marine-player is starting to be embarrassing). If I kill the Lootas that are hiding on the opposite side of the board, now everything else is too close to me. If I don't kill the lootas, I'm grounded on my side of the board anyway. If I go to them, they overwhelm me from their table edge. If I wait for them, they outshoot me with those little walking cans, lootas, and an impressive number of those Assault 3, Str 5, 36" shots. Not to mention, the things that do get close to me are squads that can soak 11 power weapon/AP2 hits and not lose a single model. (Nobz, how did they ever allow you to go unnerfed?)

 

Orks are by far my hardest game. I've only beaten a seasoned Ork player once, and it's because he used a Tide and I managed to kite it with Rhinos and a few sacrifices. Otherwise, any good Ork player in my neck of the woods will pound the crap out of me. Tau, Demons, Eldar, other Marines...I can handle all of those. But Orks I cannot really best. Their units are massive so I can't kill enough to make them run, and if I'm close enough to rapid fire, I'll kill a chunk of boyz and they'll still charge me next turn. Hard to kill the boyz anyway because - again - Lootas and Kan things and other Ork weaponry that is out-shooting my marines.

 

At Ard Boyz I brought two Dev squads and they lost the shootout to Lootas and Kanz.

 

My Ard Boyz list is actually pretty telling as to how I usually run...which is troop heavy.

 

Mephiston (I love this guy)

 

Tac Squad x9, PF, all boltguns, Rhino

Sanguind Priest with that squad, Storm bolter

Tac Squad x10, PF, melta, plasma cannon

 

Assault Squad x9, PF, melta, LRC (EA, MM, SB)

Sanguine Priest in the LRC

Assault Squad x10, PF, 2xflamers, flying

Assault Squad x10, PF, flamer, melta, flying

Sanguine Priest w/ Jump Pack

 

Sternguard x6, 2x combi-meltas, PF, Rhino

 

Dev Squad x10, 2xLC, 2xML

Dev Squad x10, 2xLC, 2xML

 

My first two Ard Boyz games were vs Nids and a Vulkan/Pedro List; both of which I beat pretty handily (unabashed). Third opponent was an Ork player. =(

 

The first time I fought the guy (not at Ard Boyz, but same list more or less) I rushed to his lines for what he later explained to me was the "Loota Trap" and all of his goons came out of reserves and ate me. Second time I fought him at Ard Boyz, and I'd used reserves all day to incredible advantage (nobody every expects over 80 marines at those tournies for some reason...and my marines just kept coming) but not against the Orks. Staying in reserves was terrible as by Turn 2 he was in my face and just killed them as they rolled in (except Mephiston, who I did a pretty good amount of damage with, killing Kanz and avoiding units with Klaws).

 

I have no general idea of how to beat Orks, and so I really don't know what questions to ask. Nobs I can't kill charging, or rapid firing, or either really. I hit one unit of wound-allocated Nobs with three tac-squads worth of rapid fire and two assault squads worth of pistol fire...THEN charged with both assault squads. I killed...no nobz. @_@ HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?! 2 wounds each, FnP, even with that crappy armor (though some of them have 4+ which isn't half bad) they just don't freakin die. AAAHHH.

 

Sorry, but I admit I'm a bit frustrated. I've been pouring thought into this for months and I'm stumped. Unless the Ork player I'm playing against sucks, it's an incredibly arduous uphill battle for me. Advice?

[Zynk Kaladin]

I'm also curious because I've been having trouble with Orks aswell <_<

[Grey Mage]

Kill Lootas? Take a Whirlwind. Kill orks in general? Drop-podding dreadnaught with an assault cannon and heavy flamer on their flanks.

 

Shoot them with bolters as they come for you. Hit their Battlewagons in the flanks with landspeeders or attack bikes, and just poor fire into them.

 

For Thades list above- combat squad the devastators, and hit the missile launchers into frag mode on the lootas, with the lascannons vaping transports. Use your bolter-boys and LRC to thin their ranks as they advance, and then counter-assault.

 

Id still highly recommend a whirlwind, and I cant recommend a Typhoon enough for any list.

[thade]

Id still highly recommend a whirlwind, and I cant recommend a Typhoon enough for any list.

 

I've had tragic luck with the one MM Landspeeder I have...but it is a 12-24" range thing, so maybe it's time I tried another kind of speeder.

[Jackelope King]

He's working on an all-comer's list. You don't tailor an all-comers list to beat Orks, and Whirlwinds rarely make the grade, to be honest (single shot means it's all the more likely that a shot will do nothing for the turn).

 

As for beating orks, it's really not that bad. Remember, you don't have to table them to win (well, except in that craptastic mission 3). Orks have awful transports. Trukks die if a stuff breeze hits them. Open-topped = death trap, and they're easy to pen. So turn one, blow them out of their transports. When the trukks are gone, hit the Battlewagons. Fast melta ends Battlewagons, who have almost no chance of guarding their side armor.

 

And the only reliable long-ranged damage orks have are Lootaz. They're not hard to kill, but you brought Devs. Sorry, man, but Devs really don't cut it. You can win a long-ranged shoot-off with them with a decent vehicle firebase. Preds laugh off Deffgun fire, and do a nice job of wiping Lootaz off the board. Rifleman Dreads are my other favorite. Note that orks in general have nearly nothing to beat this with, other than sending Nobz with power klaws at it. Good luck catching you there, after you've wrecked his transports. (You have wrecked his transports, right? And you have mech'd up your force, right?)

 

As a tactical consideration against orks that doesn't really require list changes, Mob Rulez absolutely ruin the day for ork players. Is your enemy on foot? Laugh, then charge his foot mobs with something hard and reasonably killy. He'll be making No Retreat! saves on a 6+, and he's not benefiting from Furious Charge. My Bike Command Squad, for instance, tends to savor Ork boyz mobz like a rare steak, slicing them up a half-dozen boys at a time, then watching another half-dozen get wasted by the No Retreat! rules. You've already blown him out of his transports, right? And you're mech'd up, right? Then you dictate the pace of the game and can proceed to run roughshod.

 

Another tactical consideration: orks can't handle mech. They have zero reliable anti-tank. Literally everything they can muster in terms of anti-tank comes down to Lootaz to deal with light transports, or power klaws to open up anything reasonably heavy. Orks can't reliably deal with AV13 or AV14. Armor in general gives them fits. Mech up and watch 90% of their effectiveness just vanish.

 

And as for dealing with nobz: they're target number 3 after you take down their firebase (lootaz) and transports. If his Nobz were hiding in transports, now they're foot-slogging it, and you remembered to mech up, right? You can kite them and shoot them, or dictate when and where your assault units hit them, or both. For all these considerations: focus your fire. Pick a threat, and then either shoot it until it's dead or crippled. Don't spread your fire and think you'll be dealing with four or five mobs every turn. Pick a target and shoot it until it's a steaming crater. Then move on to the next one.

 

And a final tactical consideration: skirmishers. Bubble-wrap. Speed-bumps. Meat shields. Learn to use them. If you throw a squad in a transport in front of an ork unit, you've probably bought yourself at least 2 turns of the orks trying to deal with that unit, more than likely 3. Orks shouldn't be getting to your lines on Turn 2. You can hold them up for quite awhile with skirmishers. It's Warhammer 40k: sending some poor schmucks to suffer a horrendous fate at the hands of terrible monsters and be left broken and bleeding on a lonely, blood-soaked battlefield is downright fluffy.

[Brother Gaius]

A thunderfire I have found to be a good solution to any troop-based problem. For 100 points you get a VERY long range firebase that will make Lootas melt, put the hurt on Mobz and can slow anything to a crawl if that is what you need to get some more time. Rifleman Dreads or tactical ML/LC work great for making mech Ork's footslogging Orks, then the TF bring the rain. A Typoon or three will also tear Orks apart and go looking for seconds. The only reliable firepower they have against av 10+ at anything over 24 is the Big SHootas and the Deffguns. Once you get over 36, all it is is Deffguns really. That gives you a very good range of operation to hand them their teeth.

 

I haven't looked through the BA codex, so you will have to tell me if you can take the TF and the Rifleman dreads. I would think that if you are BA then maybe look at the dreads in pods? DC dreads w HF/Frag? maybe Bloodtalons for that extra killy? Librarian dreads for...well...bloodlance and a few other toys?

[Grey Mage]

Rifleman yes, TFC no.

[Koremu]

It looks to me like you need more Vindicators.

[Giga]

@ thade

 

The problem with your list is that it doesn't have any real punch in it. As in, it doesn't have anything that can deal huge amounts of anti-personel damage in a single turn, and against orks you need this sort of thing as they tend to get in your face really fast and you need to be able to cull their numbers before they hit your lines.

 

Now, I don't play BA, but assault marines with 2x flamers should be able to take out or at least severely damage big boyz mobz in a single turn of shoot+charge. Apart from that, you would do well to add some proper anti-infantry, such as mm/hf speeders, spammed dakkapreds, baal preds, honor guard with 4 flamers, big units of sternguard (6 sternguards aren't gonna do crap to hordes, and having 2 x heavy flamers on them is a great idea), LR redeemer/crusader, etc. In addition, having a couple close-combat dreadnoughts is great if you're BA. These dreads can pretty much tarpit entire boyz mobz for long periods of time, and they also insta-kill nobz.

 

The nobz are best dealt with instant death. Hence, th/ss terminators, lascannons, missile launchers, meltas, mephiston, vindicators, etc. are all going to be making short work of them.

 

Also, of course you can't outshoot these orks. The long-range shooting in your list is pathetic. You have what, 4 las cannons, 4 missile launchers, and a plasma cannon? And all of it is static. Won't get you far in shooting matches, tbh.

[ImperialReaper]

I played Orcs myself a few times.

 

I think the biggest problem for my opponents always were the pure masses of units I had and that I could allocate all the wounds I had to useless boyz so the guys with the powerweapons arrived and had their furious charge.

 

So for Orcs I would definitely not go for weapons with big punch, but for weapons with templates and as many shots as possible. Storm Bolters and heavy bolters wound on 3+ and 4+ and end the day for any normal boy after this. Flamers wound nice but also mean that you have to be in range for close combat next turn which is not desireable. You also should pay particular attention to NOT let them have their furious charge if possible...

For Bossmobs and HQ choices 1 or 2 plasmarifles will be enougth.

 

I am unshure about your problem with the lootas. A normal Assault Squad with jump packs should have nor problem finishing them. If the terrain dows not allow you to get to them to the lootas without being whiped out you can use them as shock troops. And I would use an Assault Squad because I guess they will be whiped out by boyz after killing the lootas and it is more point effective than to drop in a terminator squad or a dreadnought and loose those.

[greatcrusade08]

Rifleman yes, TFC no.

 

Why not? i run two and they own everything.

 

other than that, bike squads with T5 have the mobility to ensure charges, orks then need 6's to wound which negates thier huge numbers of attacks.. shooty ork squads wil have one attack less per model and are an even tastier snack!

ironclad dreads are also a good choice, drop them with twin heavy flamers and the AV13 should help vs the claws.

The alternative is fast attack.. a few land speeder squadrons with heavy flamer can ruin anyones day :lol:

[Brother Captain Josef]

Rifleman yes, TFC no.

Why not? i run two and they own everything.

 

Agreed. I field one in every list I do and it's always funky-do. I would have another but for the £30 price tag :(

 

I also have no idea why anyone would field a footslogging tech marine w/servo harness when for 25 pts more you get the Thunderfire Cannon - ok so it gets blown up easily but it's just such a mega cannon of uber-badassery and more often than not your left with a techmarine to offer close support for your objective holders if it does.

[DerekLee688]

I believe you have to use what they don't got, good vehicles. You need something to out shoot and survive lootas? Baal's look great. You don't need MM aganst anything non apocalipse ork, Typhoon's two krak missles to the side will do, plus their anti infantry one two punch of frags and HB are gold vs. the poor armor saves of ork hordes. Vindi's will put a 30" no fly zone for nob bikers unless they want S10 instant death.

 

That said, all those options are vehicles. If you want to keep the marine horde appeal of your army then it's gonna be really tough. You're trying to beat a horde with horde. Sternguard may inflict more kills but their higher cost takes bodies away from your list. The only REAL sugestion I got for your list present is to provide as much boosts as possible. You are already maxed out on sang priests how about trading the small sternguard unit for ta unit with a banner that raise attacks or something. But I'd strongly recomend investing in typhoons instead of devs.

[thade]

Thanks, all; given me a lot to think on.

 

Everyone hates on Devs. ;) They do pretty well for me, grounding Rhinos and all else...save versus Orks...where they do spectacularly poorly. The more I think on that game, the more I think I made two tragic decisions at the start. Firstly, by keeping all but the Devs in reserve to start the game (as I'd been doing for the day...it won me two games), second, for aiming the Devs at Kanz and not Lootas for the first turn.

 

Had I instead put EVERYTHING on the table all gun-lined and trusted FnP/3+ armor saves, I could have OPENED UP on his Horde as it marched in with all of my fire power, charging his lines with my flame-thrower bearing assault troops. Might have gone a great deal differently.

 

REGARDING MY CHAPTER'S LOAD OUT:

 

I own one Vindicator, two Whirlwinds, and a crap ton of flame throwers. I once had a WW kill a unit of 1k sons, but I don't think that they'll do that every time. As for the Vindi or flame-thrower jump troops, getting to the Lootas over the sea of orks is part of my issue...though honestly I did focus on Lootas and trukks and failed to kill them before the hordes got to me. Couldn't DS my troops back there, and seldom would expect to, given an ocean of Orks and that Lootas will virtually always be in a cover-granting terrain piece (dangerous terrain checks for my marines when they DS).

 

I built a rifleman dread and the thing was so underwhelming that I stopped fielding him. Two TL-autocannons and he was completely unable to stall a single Rhino in eleven out of twelve games I tried him in. I admit I'm somewhat magical when it comes to dice rolling (and not in a way that often benefits me), but there it is.

 

I built a Typhoon last night (rather, converted my MM speeder over to it) and I'll start trying that out in games to get the hang of it. I also fashioned yet a sixth set of arms for my one non-AoBR dread. I own four dreads. Two AoBR - with incompatible arm pegs/sockets to all other dreads - a dread I got in a trade that's plastic-glued together, and an Iron Clad that I've built arms to make an AC dread, Rifleman, and now Furioso-Librarian with option of magna-grapple and frag cannon. I'm pretty excited to try the frag cannon. Oh, and I built him a drop pod.

[minigun762]

Its situations like this that I think Loyalist Marines are lucky to have Drop Pods. It gives you another way to deploy besides just meching up and the inherent safety involved means you worry less about where you land.

 

In the same vein as my arguement with podding Dreads, dropping some Tac Marines behind enemy lines forces that player to make decisions about how to handle them. Don't underestimate what a bunch of Bolters can do to a squad of Lootas or a Trukk or mob of Boyz.

[Grey Mage]

Rifleman yes, TFC no.

 

Why not? i run two and they own everything.

 

other than that, bike squads with T5 have the mobility to ensure charges, orks then need 6's to wound which negates thier huge numbers of attacks.. shooty ork squads wil have one attack less per model and are an even tastier snack!

ironclad dreads are also a good choice, drop them with twin heavy flamers and the AV13 should help vs the claws.

The alternative is fast attack.. a few land speeder squadrons with heavy flamer can ruin anyones day

Because he CANT. Blood Angels dont have TFC. Wich is what was asked directly above my post.

[thade]

Rifleman yes, TFC no.

Why not? i run two and they own everything.

Because he CANT. Blood Angels dont have TFC. Wich is what was asked directly above my post.

 

It's true. I gave up a lot of nice things in the vanilla dex for the BA dex. I *frequently* miss Combat Tactics. And Telion. *sniff*

[ShinyRhino]

Have you ever considered deepstriking those assault squads with the flamers? With Descent of Angels, you just have to familiarize yourself with how big a 6" scatter can be. Combat Squad on arrival, and torch the Boyz. If you drop two separate combat squads near one another, each can have a flamer for maximum gain. or, you can use both flamers in one squad, and drop theother someplace safer. The flamer squad becomes a sacrificial lamb that can roast up some Orks, and pray they kill enough to make the resulting charge survivable.

 

Works doubly well when you drop on top of the Lootas, since they're not Fearless. Enough template hits and you'll either wipe the squad, or force them to flee off the table. You risk five Marines to eliminate most of his long-range fire.

 

It's a thin, weak pretense, but you never know. It might work.

[thade]

Actually, ShinyRhino, I tried using DoA with that very mentality versus marines this week; flamered the crap out of a Long Fang squad, which resulted in them losing models such that they lost coherency and had to move (i.e. couldn't return fire). The player considered charging what remained into my full assault squad, then decided to move them further away into cover. I still got em.

 

DoA makes Deep Striking MUCH more viable. Tonight I'm going to practice using locator beacons (three scout squads, one on bikes) to Drop Pod and teleport to. Once I get confortable with that d6" spread, I'll take it vs. orks again.

[templargdt]

Thade, try a drop podded dread in your list for taking on those back field lootas (I'd go for a death company dread in your BA list, those things are sick.)

 

As for the green tide, I've found Razorbacks to be excellent against them. I've basically switched from Rhinos to Razorbacks in all my SM lists.

 

Against the Nobz I think you need to use Str 8+ weapons. Anything else just isn't going to get the job done. Vindicators are excellent for this. TH/SS termies own Nobz. Missile Launcher devastator teams would be good against them and the green tide (assuming they are't Meganobz.)

[amberclad87]

Have you ever tried a 10 man death company squad with 8 power weapons 2 power fists and chaplain? Stick them in a land raider or storm raven. I've run the math on it and against a WS 4 Toughness 5 opponent they will do an average of 29 wounds with the power weapons. It's an expensive death star unit but it can kill ANYTHING!!! but if it can kill anything and everything, then wouldn't it be worth it.

[Grey Mage]

Thats really cool... right up until you wipe out your opponents unit and get counter-charged by two more 30 strong ork mobs you didnt have the firepower to counter.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well, he does have a 3+ save and FnP to compensate, so there might be a couple of DC Marines to hit back. . .

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

Death Company will only bring down your body count, and for Marines, that could kill you. Bring lots of cheap firepower, like Thunderfires, RifleDreads and Preds, cheap but survivable against the Str 4 spam. Bring Typhoons and Attack Bikes for some speed and heavy hitting power. For HQ get a MotF with a Beamer to contribute to the total fire output even more.

[Xaraon]

I too have had the same greentide problem and my problem is that my opponet makes his +5 Force bubble save more often than not, thereby rendering my weapons ineffective.