What if....the Primarchs haven't been scattered...?

[Neonknight]

Hi,

 

buddys of mine and I discussed how the Primarchs and Legions would look like and behave, if the primarchs haben't been scattered through the galaxy by the chaos gods.

What was the original plan of the Emperor for the Primarchs? Alltogether in a boot camp training side by side? Or had the Primarchs at a certain age to leave their father to be some kind of errant knights to gain experience and to find out their role?

As it seems every Primarch reflects another feature, character trait or quality of the Emperor (ex. Siege Master, Psyker, Tactican, Smith, Artisan, Warrior, Priest etc.).

Or may be the Emperor has foreseen that the Primarchs will be scatterd by the chaos gods...

 

What do you think?

[Brother Styphus]

He made the primarchs after he took control of earth, and he wanted to make them his generals for when he went to conquer the galaxy.

 

I'm pretty sure it was hinted that the Emperor made some sort of pact with chaos to have his children created. He didn't follow through with something, and so chaos warped them to random planets around the galaxy.

[PrimalFear]

Are there any novels that explains anything before the heresy?

[Liquid_awesomes]

try reading collected visions, it contains a lot of fluff like this. Personaly i think that it was meant that they scattered, or you would end up with 200,000 space marines led by indentical primarches, and they would all inherit the emperors strengths and weaknesses.

[jeffersonian000]

I got the impression that Primarchs were prototypes for the legions that followed, yet were never really intended to be anything beyond that.

 

First came the Custodians, who are a genetically engineered race that is not human; great in concept, but apparently taking too long to grow from scratch to fully functional soldiers. Using the same research, the Primarchs were designed and implemented with the sole intention of being hosts for harvestable organs that could be rapidly grown in huge numbers for the eventual implantation into hundreds of thousands of trained and experienced warriors already under the command of the Emperor of Terra. These prototypes had all of the organs that the newly conceived Space Marines would receive with the exception of the Black Carapace, yet they had those organs as natural parts of their bodies. Most likely, they would have been dissected and had their geneseed harvested for rapid implantation into multiple different hosts, with the Emperor's Legions as the final recipients of the rapidly clone geneseed organs. However, the first prototypes, the Primarchs, were snatched away before they matured to a point that harvesting could take place. This incident left behind only the original genetic material used to create the first series of prototypes, something the Emperor was aware of when the incident occurred which was why he allowed the theft to take place rather than except the warp tainted prototype back, leading to a second series of prototypes based of the original Primarchs that were not stolen by warp entities. As such, it was that second series, the Secondus, that were harvested for rapid development which led to the creation of the Astartes from the existing Terran Legions. None of the second-series survived the process, as originally intended.

 

Fast forward to the Emperor's first extra Sol pit-stop on the industrial world of Cthonia, where he encounters the first of his lost first-series prototypes, which had already had time to mature past the point of harvesting. With no need to dismantle the warp-touched prototype for material as he already had a legion of Astartes using pure-strain geneseed, the Emperor convinced this prototype, the Primarch Horus Lupercal, to become His equerry while at the same time recruiting Lupercal's extensive under hive gang as newly minted Astartes. This set the precedent for each future contact with a re-discovered Primarch, who under their devices had reached maturity while effectively conquering their world. Instead of a protracted battle, all the Emperor needed to do was offer the Astartes upgrade taken from their leaders very own flesh to the army already under that Primarch's command, and then simply absorbing those new Astartes into the very growing military machine of The Grand Crusade. Remember, no Primarch ever gave from his own flesh; all Astartes, even those recruited along side the Primarch, received geneseed created after the theft with non-tainted material from their respective Primarch.

 

Of course, there were a few hiccups, namely the II and XI Legions eventual disbanding, the abduction of Angron from his world that added no new forces to the Crusade, and the massed geneseed production failure that saw the near extinction of the Fulgrim genetic line. Such as war.

 

SJ

[Neonknight]

I got the impression that Primarchs were prototypes for the legions that followed, yet were never really intended to be anything beyond that.

 

First came the Custodians, who are a genetically engineered race that is not human; great in concept, but apparently taking too long to grow from scratch to fully functional soldiers. Using the same research, the Primarchs were designed and implemented with the sole intention of being hosts for harvestable organs that could be rapidly grown in huge numbers for the eventual implantation into hundreds of thousands of trained and experienced warriors already under the command of the Emperor of Terra. These prototypes had all of the organs that the newly conceived Space Marines would receive with the exception of the Black Carapace, yet they had those organs as natural parts of their bodies. Most likely, they would have been dissected and had their geneseed harvested for rapid implantation into multiple different hosts, with the Emperor's Legions as the final recipients of the rapidly clone geneseed organs. However, the first prototypes, the Primarchs, were snatched away before they matured to a point that harvesting could take place. This incident left behind only the original genetic material used to create the first series of prototypes, something the Emperor was aware of when the incident occurred which was why he allowed the theft to take place rather than except the warp tainted prototype back, leading to a second series of prototypes based of the original Primarchs that were not stolen by warp entities. As such, it was that second series, the Secondus, that were harvested for rapid development which led to the creation of the Astartes from the existing Terran Legions. None of the second-series survived the process, as originally intended.

 

Fast forward to the Emperor's first extra Sol pit-stop on the industrial world of Cthonia, where he encounters the first of his lost first-series prototypes, which had already had time to mature past the point of harvesting. With no need to dismantle the warp-touched prototype for material as he already had a legion of Astartes using pure-strain geneseed, the Emperor convinced this prototype, the Primarch Horus Lupercal, to become His equerry while at the same time recruiting Lupercal's extensive under hive gang as newly minted Astartes. This set the precedent for each future contact with a re-discovered Primarch, who under their devices had reached maturity while effectively conquering their world. Instead of a protracted battle, all the Emperor needed to do was offer the Astartes upgrade taken from their leaders very own flesh to the army already under that Primarch's command, and then simply absorbing those new Astartes into the very growing military machine of The Grand Crusade. Remember, no Primarch ever gave from his own flesh; all Astartes, even those recruited along side the Primarch, received geneseed created after the theft with non-tainted material from their respective Primarch.

 

Of course, there were a few hiccups, namely the II and XI Legions eventual disbanding, the abduction of Angron from his world that added no new forces to the Crusade, and the massed geneseed production failure that saw the near extinction of the Fulgrim genetic line. Such as war.

 

SJ

 

Thanks jeffersonian000.

So basically you say that the Primarchs only survived because they have been scattered by the dark gods? :( :)

What was then the intent of the chaos gods to scatter the Primarchs, if the Emperor just could create a second, third etc. generation of "organ banks"?

Do you have a special resource or evidence for your well written theory above?

 

So if all had been went normal, there would be 20 Legions with idenictal colours, fighting methods and tactics.

[Rorschach]

I'm pretty sure it was hinted that the Emperor made some sort of pact with chaos to have his children created. He didn't follow through with something, and so chaos warped them to random planets around the galaxy.

False Gods suggests this, but I'm unsure how much we can rely on it - it is, after all, presented to Horus in a vision manipulated by Erebus and chaos. Whether it's the truth, or simply a variation of the past as seen by Horus, is not given any clear answers in the text.

[AGPO]

@ Neon Knight: jeffersonian000's post is just a theory. There's actually a lot of established fluff which states the Primarchs were created to be the Emperor's generals.

 

As for what they would have been like, each individual Primarch was a unique creation so whilst they would have all been tutored on Terra, they would still have varying abilities. Some specialisms would therefore have remained. Magnus would still have been a very naturally capable psyker, but would have been schooled exclusively by the Emperor. Perturabo and Dorn would have their natural skill for seige craft, but again this would be shaped by the Emperor. Likewise, Angron, Mortarion and Russ would not have taken on the traits and issues from their homeworld that they did. Growing up with the Big E would have meant they all would have been comfortable with psykers, but the aggression chips of the World Eaters, the cultural tie-overs in the Space Wolves, Death Guard, Salamanders and Word Bearers (to name a few) would all disappear.

 

Ultimately each legion would be a lot less individual, but would still be shaped by it's Primarch's natural talents

[army310]

SJ

 

So if all had been went normal, there would be 20 Legions with idenictal colours, fighting methods and tactics.

 

i would not go that far. the thousand sons would still used sorcery and still had problems like they were having befor Magnus the Red help them. the World Eaters would still be CBC like, but just without thier techno-gladiator Angron making them more so. thats to name a few but they all were able to convert to their Primarch fighting methods and tictics without too many problems or the dont say it in the books i have readed.

[army310]

I'm pretty sure it was hinted that the Emperor made some sort of pact with chaos to have his children created. He didn't follow through with something, and so chaos warped them to random planets around the galaxy.

False Gods suggests this, but I'm unsure how much we can rely on it - it is, after all, presented to Horus in a vision manipulated by Erebus and chaos. Whether it's the truth, or simply a variation of the past as seen by Horus, is not given any clear answers in the text.

 

and they said that the BIG E did do some thing chaos in the Thousand Sons book page 237.

[Leonaides]

Only 1 problem Jeffersonian - Sanguinius DID give his own flesh to the Blood Angels - the emperor performed the coomplex operations that would extract the the geneseed from Sanguinius' genetic codes and implanted it into the warriors of the Blood Angel Legion.

 

Time to revise your theory, perhaps?

[Antioch Bethel]

I like Astelan's theory of the Primarchs, from Angels of Darkness, by Gav. Basically he believed that each of the Primarchs was a clean slate and that their personalities began to form within the first few years of life. Astelan used this theory to explain the Lion's secretiveness. His first few years were spent in the forests of a death world tainted by chaos to its very core (although no one realized this until much later), all by himself. Survival was what drove him and still drove him. It is mentioned in one of the HH books (not sure which right now) that occasionally the glint of a wild predator can still be seen in the Lion's eyes. And while he definitely learned post Jungle-Boy faze his personality had already been formed and shaped.

 

This same theory can be used to explain the other Primarchs as well, probably. One thing to remember, though, is that this theory was presented as a theory by a character, and has not been confirmed or denied as canon. So to answer the question, I believe that the Primarchs would definitely have been more similar had they not been separated at birth and been raised from day one by the Big E. I don't think that Dorn would have been an expert in fortifications and that Perturabo would have been an expert in siegecraft. I think that probably they COULD have all been experts in everything which the Emprah excels.

 

Just my two cents.

[Justicar Valius]

The legions would be a lot less unique, we might have another legion or 2, Magnus wouldn't be traitor, all the traitors that followed primarchs not ever recruited. No Baal predators. No wings for Sanguiness. Lots of stuff.

 

I like what happened in Horus's vision personnaly.

 

Horus bashes in either geno bank II or XI (I forget) then the portal opens up and the Big E comes to see why a geno bank isn't working. He decides to let chaos take the primarchs to do what they like because they are tainted by chaos.

[shatter]

try reading collected visions, it contains a lot of fluff like this. Personaly i think that it was meant that they scattered, or you would end up with 200,000 space marines led by indentical primarches, and they would all inherit the emperors strengths XXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

 

Fixed it for you.

 

One never knows when to expect the Inquisition. =)

 

 

I'm of the ilk that believes it was all according to plan.

 

He didn't cast them into the warp, but His actions or inaction effected the same result.

 

Why?

 

Each Primarch was an icon of particular sociological identity. Some exemplified positive virtues, some exemplified negative virtues. Usually the difference was only apparent after the cards were played.

 

The scattering of the Primarchs was in essence a shuffling of the tarot. It lends Him the air of innocence to the masses in The Great Plan and adds weight and validity to their tarot-ic outcome.

[jeffersonian000]

Thanks jeffersonian000.

So basically you say that the Primarchs only survived because they have been scattered by the dark gods? :cuss :cuss

What was then the intent of the chaos gods to scatter the Primarchs, if the Emperor just could create a second, third etc. generation of "organ banks"?

Do you have a special resource or evidence for your well written theory above?

 

So if all had been went normal, there would be 20 Legions with idenictal colours, fighting methods and tactics.

 

The intent was to create a means by which to control the eventual outcome of the Empire of Man. What the Emperor had done via the unification wars was to remove the need for worship from the minds of Terran humans, which created a calming affect on the nearby warp storms thus allowing the Emperor's forces to leave Terra to start the Grand Crusade. When agents of Chaos attempted to steal the Primarchs, was it really Chaos that flung them to human inhabited worlds? Or was it the Emperor, who thwarted the attempt by removing the Primarchs from the equation for the next 50 years while He sot out replacements for His gene-seed donors? We know that the Emperor understood the nature of Chaos, and there enough implied evidence that the Emperor may have tapped into the warp to progress his campaign of unification of the human race. In the end, it was important for the Primarchs to be created, whether or not they lived depended more on how dangerous they could be to the Big E.

 

Think about this: The Emperor foresaw the future that lay ahead of humanity, saw all the possible paths laid out before him with all the possible consequences known and understood. Would it not be reasonable to assume that the Emperor, before creating the Primarchs, already knew that one of the twenty would destroy all of his plans if allowed to fall into the hands of Chaos, but necessarily which one? So rather than let the warp have the prototypes, the Emperor chose the eventual destinations for the twenty as a means of denying the warp while still allowing Him to eventually remove His creations. Time was on His side as long as he could keep His real enemy (Chaos) at bay by denying their very existence through the suppression of religion.

 

Yet the Big E was correct, it took only one of the Primarchs to de-rail His plans: Lorgar. Lorgar wrote both the tomes of power that created the 40k universe as we know it, the Lectitio Divinitatus and the Book of Lorgar. The Lectitio Divinitatus returned humanity to the burden of worshipping, which in turn powered the warp and fed the dark entities within while uplifting the Emperor into the warp so that He would be more vulnerable to their attacks. The Book of Lorgar did for Chaos what the Lectitio did for the Emperor; it created a way for them to directly affect the material realm by crossing over the threshold. Everything else that occurred that shaped 40k came about due to Lorgar fulfilling his role as Judas to the Emperor's role as Christ.

 

 

As to legion colors, they most likely all were the same slate gray color before the individual Primarchs selected new schemes, as seen in the first four HH novels: Luna Wolves (gray with green trim before changing to sea foam green), Death Guard (gray with green trim, formerly gray with a red arm, formerly just gray), Space Wolves (gray with no trim). Horus was mentioned as having kept his Legions original color until he decided to change their name, which led to their new color scheme. With just that small sampling, one could assume that the 20 Legions of Terra all started off with a gray base coat with trim assigned is honors for specific accomplishments (i.e., Dusk Raiders were allowed to paint their right arms red to signify that they were the Emperor's blood right hand after they fought a successful terror campaign during the unification wars).

 

 

 

Only 1 problem Jeffersonian - Sanguinius DID give his own flesh to the Blood Angels - the emperor performed the coomplex operations that would extract the the geneseed from Sanguinius' genetic codes and implanted it into the warriors of the Blood Angel Legion.

 

Time to revise your theory, perhaps?

 

 

Not really. One off's do not discredit a conspiracy theory, they simply reinforce all the other points. :D

 

One of the cool things about 40k conspiracy theories is that GW has no real part in them, as the inconsistent fluff virtually demands to be reconciled into the working story arc where everything written is true and not just bad fiction.

 

SJ

[Brother Styphus]

That's a neat idea, except that the other legions that weren't mentioned already had their legion colors, the Dusk Raiders (death guard) didn't exist during the unification wars, daemons were coming through the warp without the need of Lorgar's book making people religious (at least 2 times in the HH novels, once with the luna wolves, another time with the dark angels), how would the emperor fling the primarchs across space and why didn't he use this insta-teleport travel during the crusade, why would he need 9-12 feet tall beings just to be organ donors, and on and on.

 

Not saying your ideas are bad, you just need to make your OWN thread with your theories somewhere else, but start from the beginning of time. You have some points, but they need to be elaborated before they can make sense. I'm sure with enough time and editing it could be a quite popular read.

[jeffersonian000]

Actually, the Dusk Raiders did exist during the unification wars, per Garro's recollection in Flight of the Eisenstein. As to Lorgar and daemon spawning books, Lorgar wrote the documents that both the imperial cult and the heresy were founded on; I find it quite fasinating that the Ecclesiarchy preach the words of Lorgar, while the Inquisition root out the daemon cults which preach the words of Lorgar.

 

Back on topic, my overall theory is that if the Primarchs were not scattered, they would not have become the generals of the Crusade, the Imperial Cult would not have been formed, and the Emperor would not have ascended to near godhood by being shackled to his mortal remains as a virtual lich. Which is to say, 40k as we know it would be closer the Star Trek than the gothic nightmare we all love.

 

SJ

[Jamafore]

Star Trek 40k?

 

 

GAH!!! I need my brain bleach!

 

::Runs away screaming like a little girl.::

[Legatus]

A lot of Primarchs were changed by the powers of the warp when they were scattered. And pretty much every Primarch was imensely influenced by the world he was raised on. If they had not been scattered then they would have all been brought up in a controlled environment, and would all be slight variations of Horus, Guilliman, Dorn or Fulgrim. More the straight military commander types. No chieftains, cult leaders or warrior champions.

[Neonknight]

...

Back on topic, my overall theory is that if the Primarchs were not scattered, they would not have become the generals of the Crusade, the Imperial Cult would not have been formed, and the Emperor would not have ascended to near godhood by being shackled to his mortal remains as a virtual lich. Which is to say, 40k as we know it would be closer the Star Trek than the gothic nightmare we all love.

 

SJ

 

So the Emperor ascended to near godhood because the chaos gods scattered the primarchs. :-)

Some would say that's a kind of teamwork. :-)

[Kizzdougs]

The Emperor would have been able to train and develop the psychic abilities that many of the primarchs possessed. Imagine that, Russ and Magnus learning together. Russ would probably still be jealous though :lol:

 

Imagine Lorgar without religion, Angron without a scrambled brain, Night Haunter with some TLC or Mortarion with a nice daddy. UN BEATABLE!!

[Lord_Reven]

So the Emperor ascended to near godhood because the chaos gods scattered the primarchs. :-)

Some would say that's a kind of teamwork. :-)

 

Burn you heretic!

[Neonknight]

So the Emperor ascended to near godhood because the chaos gods scattered the primarchs. :-)

Some would say that's a kind of teamwork. :-)

 

Burn you heretic!

 

 

*jumps in his flameproofed suit*

Here I am! Just concluced in short what jeffersonian000 wrote. ;-)