Death Leaper vs...

[Morticon]

I still dont see where a unique model is a special character. T

 

Pg 49 Special Characters:

 

"these unique individuals, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name and not just a title, are called 'Special Characters' ".

 

 

Based on that- he is a Special Character. He is however neither an IC nor an Upgrade ><;

 

 

As to Bjorn, actually by the rules, Bjorn would also be a Special Character too. There is nothing that prevents a walker from being a special character rules wise (using the above paragraph).

[Isiah]

As to Bjorn, actually by the rules, Bjorn would also be a Special Character too. There is nothing that prevents a walker from being a special character rules wise (using the above paragraph).

 

I guess not. He has a name so bingo – he's a special character. Though as you say Mort, neither IC or upgrade :devil:

[Grey Mage]

I agree with DevianID. And in fact nowhere in the codex does it state Mephiston is a special character.

 

0b :devil:

 

BO- hes def a Special Character as Isiah showed by him having a name. (pg 49 says that if he has a name he is a special character).

 

However, I still think there is a problem. I'll try clarify my thoughts, and hopefully someone can show me where im off.

 

 

* DLs ability affects Characters.

* Characters are defined as being either ICs or Upgrade Characters.

 

* All Special Characters can be ICs or upgrade characters.

 

* Mephiston is a Special Character.

* Mephiston is not an Upgrade or IC.

 

So- this is where i get stuck again in my mind. Because even though the DL effects ICs and Upgrades, he does not effect SCs by virtue of them being SCs alone.

I think we get confused with that 3rd point.

I think we believe that because he is a Special Character, he falls under the Character definition, which as we've shown is not true (rectangles/squares issue).

 

Heeelp !!!!

The rules actually say "are normally independant or upgrade characters".

 

It does not say they are ALWAYS just that they are NORMALLY. Thus, other types of characters are quite possible.

[Mordekiem]

So- this is where i get stuck again in my mind. Because even though the DL effects ICs and Upgrades, he does not effect SCs by virtue of them being SCs alone.

I think we get confused with that 3rd point.

I think we believe that because he is a Special Character, he falls under the Character definition, which as we've shown is not true (rectangles/squares issue).

 

Heeelp !!!!

Um, Mort. The simple fact that the chapter titled "Characters" starts on page 47 and special characters is a sub heading under that would indicate to me that they are still discussing characters. If they were not discussing characters then they would put it under a different section labeled "non-character special characters"...or something. ;)

 

So yeah, special characters are characters.

[Morticon]

So- this is where i get stuck again in my mind. Because even though the DL effects ICs and Upgrades, he does not effect SCs by virtue of them being SCs alone.

I think we get confused with that 3rd point.

I think we believe that because he is a Special Character, he falls under the Character definition, which as we've shown is not true (rectangles/squares issue).

 

Heeelp !!!!

Um, Mort. The simple fact that the chapter titled "Characters" starts on page 47 and special characters is a sub heading under that would indicate to me that they are still discussing characters. If they were not discussing characters then they would put it under a different section labeled "non-character special characters"...or something. ^_^

 

So yeah, special characters are characters.

 

 

That would seal it for me!

Thanks Mord!

[Morticon]

It does not say they are ALWAYS just that they are NORMALLY. Thus, other types of characters are quite possible.

 

100% right matey, but in that case where the other types are there, adequate rules showing us that they are Characters under a different type would be necessary.

 

Mord hit the nail on the head above though, I think. And it sits well with me from a raw standpoint- I think ^_^

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You think? Sounds like you are still not sure.

 

0b :cuss

[Morticon]

You think? Sounds like you are still not sure.

 

0b ;)

 

Im def. not 100% But thats evidence enough for me to not argue the one way.

 

However, I will endeavour to inform every nid player I play (out of spite? :P :huh: ) that the ability works on any "character" - upgrade, special and IC.

[Mordekiem]

I agree, Mort. A little doubt is always a good thing no matter how "for sure" something appears.

 

Good rule for 40K and a good rule for life. :huh:

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Always best to be as fair as possible.

 

G

[DevianID]

Mort, I see where you are going. However, the heading is Special Characters, and special characters are unique. The heading is NOT Unique, with Unique being special characters.

 

My pizza explaination, while ill timed yesterday due to my impending lunch break, attempted to explain that. Special Characters are a rule, and Unique is a seperate rule. There used to be special characters in the old books, and in new books like the hopefully soon inquisition codex there may be more special characters. Recently, however, newer codex entries are not using the special character rule, they are using the unique rule, which is similiar to the old special character rule but still a different entity. Most unique units in the new books are also characters of some kind, but some unique units are not.

 

Would you consider the unique baneblade a special character? What about the unique valkyrie? I see too big a gap between all the units that are unique versus the subset of characters (independant or upgrade) that are unique. What about a unique model with no name? Ect ect. The pizza is not a lie! Cake, on the other hand...

[Commander Sasha]

If the poster who couldn't see The Lord Of Death being scared of a Big Bug, I suggest that even if not scared, perhaps it takes his mind off the ball and lowers his chances of performing a power successfully.

 

This thread re-inforces my opinion that GW is damaging the game with too many super-powers. Deathleaper would still have been interesting with a -1 leadership modifier, a round of combat doesn't leave enough time for anyone to use 3 psychic powers, Ragnar, and several BA characters are all too strong.

 

This trend is turning 40K into Top Trumps.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I polled the stores where I play plus some other forums and the overwhelming consensus is the Deathleaper has no effect on Mephiston. Seeing it was such an overwhelming response I feel okay rolling with that interpretation and will ask for a roll off if contested. <_<

 

0b :lol:

[Spacefrisian]

Ok so its decided Mephiston is not a character. What is he than?

[Grey Mage]

He is a character. Hes also infantry. Hes an HQ choice. Hes a Psycher.

[Frosty the Pyro]

If the poster who couldn't see The Lord Of Death being scared of a Big Bug, I suggest that even if not scared, perhaps it takes his mind off the ball and lowers his chances of performing a power successfully.

 

This thread re-inforces my opinion that GW is damaging the game with too many super-powers. Deathleaper would still have been interesting with a -1 leadership modifier, a round of combat doesn't leave enough time for anyone to use 3 psychic powers, Ragnar, and several BA characters are all too strong.

 

This trend is turning 40K into Top Trumps.

Death leaper doesnt nesisarily instell fear into his victems, he demorlizes them. I mean if your mepheston, and every day for the week leading up to this encounter a giant invisable mantis snuck up behind you, killed the battle brother next to you, gave you a tentical faced kiss and then ran away disapearing before you could even level your plasma pistol, bugs bunny style, you would be a bit off your game too.

[DevianID]

Grey Mage, I dont understand your assertation that Mephiston is a character. I read the passages quoted, and all they say is a special character is unique. They do not say that all unique models and units, no matter what their type, are special characters. See my above posts about all things logic and pizza inspired.

[Grey Mage]

Grey Mage, I dont understand your assertation that Mephiston is a character. I read the passages quoted, and all they say is a special character is unique. They do not say that all unique models and units, no matter what their type, are special characters. See my above posts about all things logic and pizza inspired.

There is only one description of what a Special Character is within the rules- and that is that they are unique.

[DevianID]

If special characters are unique, that does not mean that all uniques are special characters.

 

If men are human, that does not mean that all humans are men.

[Grey Mage]

Give me one example of a unique unit that isnt a special character?

[Spacefrisian]

I have tried to find one but i couldnt find a unique character that isnt special.

[DevianID]

The Iron Saint tank, Yarrik's Baneblade Fortress of (?), and the IG Valkyrie (Name?) are all unique vehicles, for example.

 

Bjorn is a Walker, Walkers are not characters.

 

Several Monstrous Creatures are now unique, from both Daemon's and 'Nids... can you give skulltaker a chariot btw--fuzzy on that one if that says you are not a character any more?

 

And Mephiston of course, though I dont know how you are supposed to play DC Tycho, and cant remember the Sangs rules off the top of my head.

 

To Spacefrisian, I think you ment you couldnt think of any unique units that are not special characters. Of course all unique characters are special characters, that is not what I have been talking about.

[stinkenheim]

and i think your missng the second word in the phrase 'special characters'.

 

your arguing that unique may make them special but not necessarily characters because it doesn't say that all things with the unique rule are characters.

well its much like my comment that the line 'normally characters are either IC or upgrades' (paraphrasing there) doesn't say that thy have to be either. it doesnt say that the only way to get a character is for it to fit into one of those two categories, merely that it is the norm for them to do so.

 

if unique makes someone a special character then they are clearly a character, they simply may not have the IC rule nor be an upgrade.

 

as for the unique vehicles, well yes they are characters in your army. nowhere does it say that characters have to be infantry models, or that they cannot be vehicles. it just happens that most rules that affect charcters only affect non-vehicle units.

[Gridlocked]

If we look at it from a fluffy point of view:

 

Would Mephiston (or the Sanguitor) really be scared of a Nid? Sangy is questioned to even be a real person so I don't think he would be and Mephiston is something nearly more then human having faced the Rage and come out clean (apperntly clean anyway), so I don't think a bug with a reputation scares him.

 

This coupples in with the arguement that DL's special only affects ICs as neither Sangy or Meph are.

 

Counter arguement to this would be that Dante would be affected because he is an IC and he is apperntly the greatest leader of the Marines to exist since the Primarchs. Then again he is only human in the end.

[Grey Mage]

The Iron Saint tank, Yarrik's Baneblade Fortress of (?), and the IG Valkyrie (Name?) are all unique vehicles, for example.

 

Bjorn is a Walker, Walkers are not characters.

 

Several Monstrous Creatures are now unique, from both Daemon's and 'Nids... can you give skulltaker a chariot btw--fuzzy on that one if that says you are not a character any more?

 

And Mephiston of course, though I dont know how you are supposed to play DC Tycho, and cant remember the Sangs rules off the top of my head.

 

To Spacefrisian, I think you ment you couldnt think of any unique units that are not special characters. Of course all unique characters are special characters, that is not what I have been talking about.

Bjorn is a Character. The Iron Saint is a Character. Skulltaker on a chariot is a Character, just not an Independant Character.

 

Mephiston, Tycho, DC Tycho, Sanguinor, all Characters.

 

They are named units that you can only take one of. Movers and shakers, main characters, leaders of renown etc. They are all characters of different types.

 

Vehicle, Infantry, Jump Infantry, it doesnt matter. The rules make no restriction on non infantry being characters anywhere.

 

@Gridlock- Deathleaper doesnt just affect independant characters, he affects any character- if it was just ICs this would have been open and shut in two posts.