Death Leaper vs...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Callidus, Eversor & Vindicare assassins are all basically unique and are not special characters. A tank is not a special character unless possibly if you count Pask or Chronus.

 

@ Grey Mage - I have followed your posts in other threads & I have found you to be open minded in general but in this particular discussion I feel you are mixing background/fluff with the actual rules. That is a big no no for me but I respect your opinion despite our different point of views regarding this subject. From a pure RAW POV the rules don't support Mephiston as a special character. I have followed your discussion of the matter and can't get around this. At the end of the day it's not a big deal though. :)

 

0b :)

[Grey Mage]

The Callidus, Eversor & Vindicare assassins are all basically unique and are not special characters. A tank is not a special character unless possibly if you count Pask or Chronus.

 

@ Grey Mage - I have followed your posts in other threads & I have found you to be open minded in general but in this particular discussion I feel you are mixing background/fluff with the actual rules. That is a big no no for me but I respect your opinion despite our different point of views regarding this subject. From a pure RAW POV the rules don't support Mephiston as a special character. I have followed your discussion of the matter and can't get around this. At the end of the day it's not a big deal though. :)

 

0b :)

The Callidus, Eversor, and Vindicare assassins are all 0-1 choices, that doesnt make them unique.

 

Another example would be the Mephiston in Unique- and thus a special character- while Death Company are a 0-1 choice.

 

Those are seperate things.

 

As for you Black Orange I feel your trying to minimize the effect of a rule on your personal codex, and I can understand the impulse. But I think trying to say the Mephiston is not a character is rediculous even from a RAW point of veiw. He matches the description in the opening summary and fulfills the requirements for being a SC... thus he must be a character.

 

But as you said, at the end of the day its not a big deal- and the chances of us ever ending up accross the board from each other are miniscule.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you look at the current rules for the assassins they fulfill all the requirements that would make them fall under the category of being unique. That was my point.

 

0b :)

[Grey Mage]

If you look at the current rules for the assassins they fulfill all the requirements that would make them fall under the category of being unique. That was my point.

 

0b

There is no "category" for being unique however. You either have the Unique special rule or you dont. See my point?

 

I understand, they are a 0-1 in total choice. So are Death Company- and DC are not Unique, despite being a 5th ed codex.

 

Bjorn on the other hand is Unique, and as such ends up being a 0-1 character.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you field Astorath you can take more than one unit of Death Company. -_-

 

0b

[Grey Mage]

If you field Astorath you can take more than one unit of Death Company. ^_^

 

0b ;)

This is true, however it could just as easily have been worded "removes the unique rule from their entry" as "removes the 0-1 restriction from their entry"

[Frosty the Pyro]

The Callidus, Eversor & Vindicare assassins are all basically unique and are not special characters. A tank is not a special character unless possibly if you count Pask or Chronus.

 

@ Grey Mage - I have followed your posts in other threads & I have found you to be open minded in general but in this particular discussion I feel you are mixing background/fluff with the actual rules. That is a big no no for me but I respect your opinion despite our different point of views regarding this subject. From a pure RAW POV the rules don't support Mephiston as a special character. I have followed your discussion of the matter and can't get around this. At the end of the day it's not a big deal though. ^_^

 

0b ;)

 

 

Then follow me, I do not mix fluff with rules, Mephiston is a special character. The assassins are not, but they are independent characters.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Assassins are not independent characters as they cannot join other units. For all practical purposes they are unique. Remember that their rules were written back in 3rd edition prior to this particular rule.

 

0b ;)

[Grey Mage]

Assassins are not independent characters as they cannot join other units. For all practical purposes they are unique. Remember that their rules were written back in 3rd edition prior to this particular rule.

 

0b ;)

The wording is however very similar to that of modern Death Company, wich are NOT unique. Assassins are not nessecairily unique by dint of being 0-1, in fact theres nothing implying that they would be.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Another difference between assassins & DC is you can only field one assassin. Another difference is independent characters can join the DC. So in fact they are not much alike at all.

 

0b ;)

[Grey Mage]

Another difference between assassins & DC is you can only field one assassin. Another difference is independent characters can join the DC. So in fact they are not much alike at all.

 

0b :)

You can only field one death company.

[stinkenheim]

there is zero point bringing up assassins and arguing they are almost chracaters. to be a special character you need the 'unique' rule. being a 0-1 choice is not the same as being 'unique'.

 

can you show me where in the rules it says that only non-vehicle models cn be specil characters BO? i have looked and can't find it, and if it isn't there then anythng regardless of unit type that is 'Unique' would RAW be a special character.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can't do something just because the rules don't say you can't.

 

0b :)

[Grey Mage]

You can't do something just because the rules don't say you can't.

 

0b :D

When you meet all the requirements you can.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Care to give a literal example?

 

0b

[stinkenheim]

right so because the rules don't state that special characters can't be vehicles, you want me to prove that they can?? if the rules don't include a caveat then to add one in yourself is wrong. nothing in the rules says that only non-vehicle model can be special characters so therefore vehicles can be.

the only requirement for being a special character is that it has to have the 'unique' rule, if you meet that then its a special character regardless of what unit type it is.

 

what is the saying with regards to the rules 'if it doesnt say you can then you cant'. as it doesn't say that special characters can only be certain unit types then it stands to reason that anything with the 'Unique' rule is a special character.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Special characters are listed by unit type in their entries.

 

0b :)

[stinkenheim]

everything has a unit type. my point was that there is nothign preventing certain unit types rom being special characters, the only requirement is that they have the 'unique' special rule. you statement does nothing to prove or disprove your stance that only non-vehicle models can be classed as special characters.

[DevianID]

and i think your missng the second word in the phrase 'special characters'

Stink, how am I missing 'character'? I am saying that 'unique' has nothing explict by itself with 'character.' Unique means you can have only 1 in the army--that is how unique works. I think you missed my point, because it seems your point is that Unique, IN ADDITION to the rules listed under Unique, also adds the moniker 'special character,' but only when you dont look at the Unique rules and instead look at the special character rules that never directly equate the 2.

 

the only requirement for being a special character is that it has to have the 'unique' rule, if you meet that then its a special character regardless of what unit type it is.

 

Where in the rulebook is that line? That has been, and will be, my point for this entire discussion. The rules thus far quoted do not in fact say that, or anything like that. If it was that clear, that special character directly = unique, then we wouldnt have this topic.

 

Can someone with an old codex look up some of the old named characters and see if they are labeled Special Characters directly? That would further note a distinction between the Unique rule and the Special Character rule.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here are some examples from the prior CSM codex:

 

Abbadon, Lucius the Eternal, Khârn the Betrayer

 

0b

[stinkenheim]

Under the heading special characters there is a sub heading called 'unique'.

the BRB then states 'SCs can be either independent or upgrade chars, but each one of them is unique, so the player may not include multiples of the same special character in an army (for example, Marneus Calgar is the master of the ultras- you cannot field three of him!).'

i think thats fairly clear that unique models are all special characters.

you can find that paragraph on p 49 of the BRB if your interested.

 

+EDIT+

iirc unique only became a rule in 5ed so i would be suprised if any special characters had it as a rule in older codexes.

iirc they did however make specific mention of being special characters and usually required the army to be of a certain points limit before they could be included.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well then by the rules you've quoted Mephiston is not an independent character or upgrade character so he does not fall into the class of special character. If there are any vehicles listed as either then I'll gladly concede your point. :)

 

0b

[stinkenheim]

the rules also state that NORMALLY characters are IC or upgrades. it doesnt state that they HAVE to be. The rules for SC also state that 'each one of them is unique, so the player may not include multiples of the same special character ' meaning that every model with the unique rule IS a special character. if that wasn't the case the rule would read something like '... may not include multiples of the same model'.

 

This is simply going round in circles now, and arguements have been provided for both sides as to why certain things may or may not be characters. i personally doubt this will be answered conclusively in this thread and will require clarification from GW.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If 'normally' then the rules for an entry must clearly state otherwise.

 

0b

[Reglor]

and i think your missng the second word in the phrase 'special characters'

Stink, how am I missing 'character'? I am saying that 'unique' has nothing explict by itself with 'character.' Unique means you can have only 1 in the army--that is how unique works. I think you missed my point, because it seems your point is that Unique, IN ADDITION to the rules listed under Unique, also adds the moniker 'special character,' but only when you dont look at the Unique rules and instead look at the special character rules that never directly equate the 2.

 

the only requirement for being a special character is that it has to have the 'unique' rule, if you meet that then its a special character regardless of what unit type it is.

 

Where in the rulebook is that line? That has been, and will be, my point for this entire discussion. The rules thus far quoted do not in fact say that, or anything like that. If it was that clear, that special character directly = unique, then we wouldnt have this topic.

 

Can someone with an old codex look up some of the old named characters and see if they are labeled Special Characters directly? That would further note a distinction between the Unique rule and the Special Character rule.

 

Looking through the old codexs that I have here (C:DE, C:Necros, C:WH, C:DH, C:Tau, and the old C:SW) all special characters are either listed as such in their description or are in a section for special characters.