Confused about Deathwing

[gloriouswolf]

I used to play space marines back in 3rd edition, and now that I'm planning to get back into 40k I've decided it would be fun to field a Deathwing army of mostly terminators. I have not played in a while and I want to make sure I'm buying and painting an army that's legal to play. I have quite a few points of confusion, and I'm hoping that the B&C community can help me out! I'll start off with some basics about my goals with this army:

 

I plan to use the Dark Angel hero Belial in order to field Terminator squads as troops.

I would like to use as many hero characters in Terminator armor as possible preferably including 2 or more librarians.

I would like to field lots of Terminator squads with as many heavy flamers as possible.

I would like to support my Terminator squads with Dark Angel Devastator squads with maxed out number of rocket launchers.

 

I am open to other units that would complement these forces, like vehicles, scouts or weapon platforms. The core of my strategy would be to rely on long range rockets while using Terminators to protect my Devastators. I don't want my army to totally suck, but my primary interest is a fluffy Deathwing strikeforce that gets to lay down lots of heavy flamer templates and is legal to field. While doing a bit of research on the net, I came across some rules for Deathwing that made me a little confused and I want to make sure I understand them.

 

QUESTIONS

 

1. Are Deathwing Terminator squads limited to 5 models?
   
2. Am I limited to one Terminator command Squad of 4 models plus a hero?
   
3. Are the rules for Deathwing Terminator squads different depending on whether they're fielded as "troops" or "elites?"
   
4. Belial allows a Terminator to equip the Deathwing company standard, does it need to be held in place of a weapon or can it be mounted on his back?
   
5. Can a Terminator carrying a standard in his hand equip a cyclone missile launcher on his back? What's the best load-out for a Terminator with a standard?
   
6. Belial allows a Terminator to be upgraded to an Apothecary, how should this model be different from a regular Terminator? Can he equip a heavy flamer and a chain fist?
   
7. Am I limited to a single Terminator Apothecary?
   
8. Am I retarded for not fielding assault cannons? Everywhere I see them listed as must-haves.
   
9. Can I support my terminators with 2 or 3 Devestator squads with 4 rocket launchers in each squad?
   
10. Are Deathwing Terminator squads special for being allowed to mix close-combat and ranged weapons within a squad?
    
11. What is the maximum number of Terminators I should consider using in this army.
    
12. Is it foolish to use as many chain fists as possible? I've heard you should have some cheaper Terminators specifically to remove as casualties.
    
13. How many Terminator Librarians could I legally field alongside Belial?
    

 

Thank you, and I hope I posted this in the right place!

[RayJ]

It seems to me that you are possibly operating out of an older codex to generate this confusion. Picking up the newest codex (released in 2007) will answer almost all of your questions.

 

Here is some general information that will help you:

 

- Deathwing is limited to 5 models per squad with a single heavy/special ranged weapon.

- Deathwing fielded as troops are scoring units. Those in elites are not.

- The Terminator "Command Squad" is simply one single Deathwing squad that is capable of getting the apothecary and standard bearer upgrades. The traditional Terminator Command Squad was removed from space marines in 5th edition, and Dark Angels no longer reference Codex: Space Marines for their rules.

- Most people field a thunder hammer and storm shield on the standard bearer, but any weapon configuration normally allowed to Deathwing may be used on both the standard bearer and apothecary.

- The apothecary is generally best represented with a color change to normal terminators (Apothecaries traditionally wear white) and including some apothecary bits from the command squad sprue.

- Deathwing can be supported by Devastator squads.

- Space Wolves and Chaos terminators have some customization options as well, though Space Wolves pay a little more for our specific configuration and chaos doesn't get the thunderhammer and storm shield.

- I'd look at 15-30 terminators, depending on how many terminators you want to run.

- I typically use a single chainfist per squad. Buying more than that is typically wasting points.

- Assault cannons offer some of the best versatility for our terminators, which is why you see a lot of them. Heavy Flamers are limited to the 8-inch flame template, and will get to shoot less often each game. Each weapon has its place in our deathwing squads, and it is based on the rest of the army's composition.

- In a normal game of 40k, you can only have one other HQ unit in addition to Belial.

 

I really must suggest grabbing the codex though. Read over it once or twice and you'll make a lot more sense out of what you see here.

[gloriouswolf]

So my Terminator standard bearer could have 2 lightning claws, a cyclone missile launcher and the banner stuck to the top of the cyclone?!

[Mentat]

Yes

[gloriouswolf]

Sometimes I see a Deathwing "command squad" pictured on the internet with Belial leading but also a Librarian, that would count as 2 HQ units (one for each hero), right? And I could generally forget about including a 2nd Librarian or Chaplain?

[aekold]

QUESTIONS

 

1. Are Deathwing Terminator squads limited to 5 models?
   
2. Am I limited to one Terminator command Squad of 4 models plus a hero?
   
3. Are the rules for Deathwing Terminator squads different depending on whether they're fielded as "troops" or "elites?"
   
4. Belial allows a Terminator to equip the Deathwing company standard, does it need to be held in place of a weapon or can it be mounted on his back?
   
5. Can a Terminator carrying a standard in his hand equip a cyclone missile launcher on his back? What's the best load-out for a Terminator with a standard?
   
6. Belial allows a Terminator to be upgraded to an Apothecary, how should this model be different from a regular Terminator? Can he equip a heavy flamer and a chain fist?
   
7. Am I limited to a single Terminator Apothecary?
   
8. Am I retarded for not fielding assault cannons? Everywhere I see them listed as must-haves.
   
9. Can I support my terminators with 2 or 3 Devestator squads with 4 rocket launchers in each squad?
   
10. Are Deathwing Terminator squads special for being allowed to mix close-combat and ranged weapons within a squad?
    
11. What is the maximum number of Terminators I should consider using in this army.
    
12. Is it foolish to use as many chain fists as possible? I've heard you should have some cheaper Terminators specifically to remove as casualties.
    
13. How many Terminator Librarians could I legally field alongside Belial?
    

 

Thank you, and I hope I posted this in the right place!

1. Yes, we are limited to 5 man squads.

2. The command squad is just a regular 5-man squad with banner and apothercary upgrades.

3. The rules are exactly the same. It is even possible to field 9 squads. 3 elites and 6 troops

4. The banner is in addition to any equipment you have so you can mount the banner on the back.

5. The apothecary can be equiped in any way you please, just like the banner bearer.

6. Only a single apothecary is allowed.

7. Assault cannons are in my eyes the only viable weapon on deathwing. The CML is to much hit or miss with only 1 shot. THe heavy flamer will only be fired once in the battle, before you charge.

8. Yes you can. Keep in mind though that taking devastators means you can take less landraiders.

9. Yes they are.Codex marines aren't allowed to do that. Deathwing assault and fearless makes them special as well.

10. That depends on the number of points you are playing. I usually take 4 squads in 1700 points. 3 in 1500.

11. Every squad should have at least one chainfist. You never know when you need to crack a vehicle open. Is also allows you to equip every model differently, allowing for some wound allocation tricks.

12. Using only one FOC you can field 1 librarian next to belial.

 

I hope that this covers your questions.

 

Edit: Damn, ninja'ed

[gloriouswolf]

aekold - Thanks, very straightforwardly answered!

[gloriouswolf]

EDIT: I used some photos from the games workshop site in my mockup, probably not OK to post without permission from GW. Anyway thanks for all the help guys!

[krewl]

I'll add my own opinions to your questsions.

Remember some people play different styles, so if I disagree on something in playstyle compaired to e.g. Aekold, both are possible options for your army. I know Aekold and he plays Deathwing differently from me.

 

1. Are Deathwing Terminator squads limited to 5 models?

Yes, we can only ad an independent character or max 2 to them, so max size is 5 normal termies and 2 characters.

2. Am I limited to one Terminator command Squad of 4 models plus a hero?

That was last edition, the current codex (as said) has no command squad option in terminator armour.

We can upgrade one squad with a banner guy and apothecary guy. (See later)

3. Are the rules for Deathwing Terminator squads different depending on whether they're fielded as "troops" or "elites?"

No, they are the same, but remember that only "Troop" Terminators can score an objective.

4. Belial allows a Terminator to equip the Deathwing company standard, does it need to be held in place of a weapon or can it be mounted on his back?

Not in place of the weapon. In fact you could have any weaponson him you like, even strange stuff like a cyclone missile launcher and lightning claws. (Which would be a bad combination, so don't build that ;) ) but it would be legal. Mine has a powerfist with the banner pole through it, and he usually has the assault cannon aswell (As an example.)

5. Can a Terminator carrying a standard in his hand equip a cyclone missile launcher on his back? What's the best load-out for a Terminator with a standard?

Mine I feel fit's best for deep striking with Deathwing Assault. I tend to deep strike 2 squads in turn 1 near eachother. So both have assault cannons and moslty storm bolters for some punch on the drop. (As they can not assault on that turn.) Because I would not like to lose the assault cannon model I also gave him the banner (so I can use the apothecary save on him if he fails a normal save in game.

This helps be to keep the banner bonus and the biggest gun alive when I'm shot at. I also offcourse lake him to take hits last if at all possible.

In an assault scquad that you'd charge from a landraider I would chose Thunderhammer and stormshield for him (Model the banner mounted on the shield perhaps? Or a back banner which is more practical, but less impressive looking I feel). That way he has a better chance to survive in CC with his 4+ inv. save instead of 5+ inv save. Offcourse you could put a cyclone on his back with any other gun of CC weapon, just not with the assault cannon or heavy flamer.

6. Belial allows a Terminator to be upgraded to an Apothecary, how should this model be different from a regular Terminator? Can he equip a heavy flamer and a chain fist?

As you can gues from the story above, yeah you can again take any wargear you like again. Use some white on a shoulderpad and some bits on an arm combined with helix symbol in red on the white and he's an apothecary.

7. Am I limited to a single Terminator Apothecary?

Yep, only one. Belial also allows you a power armoured command squad that you could e.g. hide in a rhine with 2 plasma guns and ride that up close to your termies. That way the apothecary in that squad can support other squads with his ignore one failed save measuring 6" from the hull of the rhino. (If you take a librarian you could take a second squad like this for 3 total apothecaries.

Not terminator armour though, but then againn you also wanted devstators which is also power armour so I thought I'd tell you the option exist.

8. Am I retarded for not fielding assault cannons? Everywhere I see them listed as must-haves.

The CML shoots only one shot, so yeah that pretty meah... What you could do is take 1 squad with a CML which you can use in mission where you have to guard a home objective. make the rest of the guys shooty aswell and ad rocket a turn to the game.

Anyhthing comming close will get a lot of shots comming his way before he meets the fists.

The heavy flamer can be usefull for deep strikes near an enemy, but that is what I use in my list combined with the teleport homers of the ravenwing to remove scatter risks.

If you go with landriaders and assaulty squads from that I'd add one guy with a chainfist and a heavy flamer in your assaulty squad.

Problem with the flamer is that it doesn't hit anything 99% of the game, and is hard to position so that it will have a nice thinck hit.

9. Can I support my terminators with 2 or 3 Devestator squads with 4 rocket launchers in each squad?

Yup, the limits on "Pure" Deathwing are only artificial as they where from last edition of the DA rules. Rulewise you can take anything in the codex with terminators. And I'd say devstators are a good match if you deploy your termies op close no one will be shooting at them very fast with 15 terminators up front in his lines.

10. Are Deathwing Terminator squads special for being allowed to mix close-combat and ranged weapons within a squad?

Yes they are. No heavy weapons in Close combat guys for normal SM and blood angels. Space wolves can do that but their quite prone to becomming very expensive.

11. What is the maximum number of Terminators I should consider using in this army.

As many as you can fit in your list?

12. Is it foolish to use as many chain fists as possible? I've heard you should have some cheaper Terminators specifically to remove as casualties.

I use one in each squad. My default squads look like this:

1. Powerweapon and Stormbolter

2. Powerfist and Stormbolter

3. Powerfist and Assault cannon

4. Twin Lightning claws

5. Chainfist and stormbolter

They work well together, and there are very few units who will willingly charge tehm, as even Montrous Creatures have a tendency to get hurt bad. Also all huys are different, so I can use wound allocation to load as many wounds on a guy as I can when he's already doomed.

13. How many Terminator Librarians could I legally field alongside Belial?

Just the one, sorry..

 

If I might add one thing. magnetise your terminators arms so you can swap them around, that way you can try several setups and layouts.

[gloriouswolf]

krewl thanks for the very detailed and thoughtful reply - each perspective is appreciated!!!

 

My Deathwing force is going to be geared more towards close combat, my average squad will look something like this:

 

1. Twin lightning claws (SGT)

2. Twin lightning claws

3. Powerfist and stormbolter

4. Chainfist and stormbolter

5. Chainfist and heavy flamer

 

Obviously this is going to make them pretty weak at range, but they are more for deep striking and screening for my devastators. I'll give it a try and maybe end up swapping in more stormbolters and assault cannons, we'll see...

 

I picked up the new Space Hulk board game today, I'm going to convert the terminators to Dark Angels and also swap around some of their equipment. I'm going to use the kneeling Termie from SH who's tearing up the floor panels as my apothecary, so he can kneel over his fallen comrades and extract their gene seeds in his other hand he'll have the heavy flamer pointed up in the air (at the ready) :yes:

 

I'll be buying some Dark Angel Terminator shoulder pads and Dark Angel bits, plus DA stuff from Forge World and extra bits from theWarStore and BitzBox.

 

Unfortunately I can't figure out any good (cheap) way to get a bunch of Devastators with rocket launchers - they're $10 each from a bits site, which would cost me $120 for my three Dev squads even without Sargents :P

[azrael240]

why not jsut try and buy just the missile arms and the launcher or try swaps with your sm mates

i mean were space mariense im sure some of your mates have a missile launcher or two laying around :)

[Gman]

I won't bother answering the questions as they have been covered. But I've been playing a pure DW army for about a year now and here is my setup.

 

5 termi squads, 3 with assault cannons, 2 with CML. 2 venerable dreads that are both loaded with TLLC and ML. done 1750 Well actually I think 2 of the assault cannon squads have chainfists to be exact on the points, and I have the command squad upgrade with standard and apothocary. I just took the apoth bits from power armor marine sprue and put it on a termi model, and painted him bone white. He is equiped with powerfist and storm bolter. For my standar bearer I modeled a pole going through a powerfist, and then a stormbolter in the other hand.

 

For squad load outs, you will see a lot around here prefer only 1 model with LC the rest powerfist, maybe one thunderhammer. Personally I run mine with 2 LC, expect for the command unit because I run Belial with LC. This gives me a good number of init 4 attacks to cut through stuff quickly and get the reroll on wounds. The powerfists are there to clean up the rest easily and tak out MC, characters and tanks.

 

I actually run with a TH/SS model in my two CML squads. They are dedicated to anti vehicle for both ranged and combat, as well as anti MC. The rest of the termi squads all have AC and are used for anti infantry.

 

I see no problem in putting a chainfist in every squad, but I would not do heavy flamers in every squad, you want those AC, they are the best anti infantry the army has. I can see a heavy flamer in Belials command squad at best.

 

Another way to play a pure DW army is use nothing but termis and landraiders. With the 5 man units thats OK but to fit Belial and his unit into one, you'll need a LRC because well, we got screwed in that area as well. ;)

[Tanhausen]

Neat replies you are giving there...

 

My configuration:

 

Sgt w/ Power weapon and Storm Bolter

Claws

Thunder hammer/ Storm Shield <- Maybe going for Power Fist/ Storm Bolter, not sure yet.

Chain Fist/ Storm Bolter

*** heavy weapon / Power Fist

 

Again, 5 different models, perfect wound allocation and very versatile.

 

Now I'm down from 7 to 5 termi squads, and I go for 2 Heavy flamers, 1 Assault Cannon and 2 CML. The rest of the list is 2 Landspeeders, 2 Dreadnoughts and 2 Predators.

 

The 2 CML start in table, nursing the Predators and supporting the dreadnoughts. Thats some 1.000 points that sit back and pound for as many turns as possible. When (not if :P) they get to my base, the termis and dreadnoughts play their countercharge role.

 

IMO, the only cost effective heavy weapon we have is Heavy Flamer. Our CML is ruinous (and not powerful xD)... but its the least of evil... along with a VERY expensive shooting base (not a good idea to use termis to shoot from afar... unless you can use them as countercharge). And the AC...30 points is 2 PA marines!!!! And 4S6 AP4 isn't THAT impressive... it would be something like 0.58 killed marines per round.

 

Someone said that HF are difficult to use effectively... I usually do get to hit at least 2 or 3 models when I land (yep, upclose and personal)... but they are specially useful after the combat. Since we can't chase due to the TDA, what I do is move, flame and charge again :P

 

And with the BA and their DS and so many podding units... its beautiful :P

 

Anyway, just my opinion/experience... and a very nice discussion turned up here ^_^

[gloriouswolf]

Thanks for your help, everybody. I'm putting the finishing touches on my first 3 squads of terminators and Belial. I bought the new Space Hulk, damn it was hard to lay my hands on. $125 was the best price I could get, everybody who listed it lower online was sold out. Other than that I haven't had to buy any new figs yet, but I could use some termie heavy weapons and marines with rocket launchers. Anyway, here's what I've got painted up:

 

HQ (160)

Belial (+apothacary)

 

Troops (685)

Terminator Squad (+heavy flamer)

Terminator Squad (+assault cannon, +chainfist)

Terminator Squad

 

for 845 points.

I can reach 1000 by adding either

 

Terminator Librarian (145)

or

Dreadnaught (155) (+missile launcher, +twin-linked las)

 

but they're still unpainted. I also haven't painted my marines as dark angels yet. I want to field all my marines as devastator teams, with 4 rocket launchers per squad, unfortunately I only have two rocket launchers right now. Need to order some bits... got a bunch of armless guys in mark 6 armor to use. One of my rocket launchers has a funny pose, launcher down, pumping his fist in the air, like he's celebrating a looted-tank kill :-) If I paint up all my marines, I could add:

 

devastator team [5 man squad] (+sargeant power fist, +4 missile launchers)

devastator team [5 man squad] (+sargeant power sword, +4 missile launchers)

tactical squad [5 man squad] (+flamer)

tactical squad [5 man squad] (+plasma)

 

My terminator squads are also noticeably short a heavy weapon (they are about a 50% - 50% mix of storm-bolters and lightning claws with 2 thunder-hammer/storm-shields). If I buy 2 assault cannons and a few deathwing sargeants, I could up my number of deathwing squads to 4 while adding 2 heavy weapons and several power swords. Going foreward this would probably be my first new purchase.

 

comments? I can post some pictures as soon as I find my camera charge cable :-\

[gloriouswolf]

The best I can do right now is fuzzy camera phone pic, but at least it's proof, right :-p

 

...Space Hulk terminators required an unreasonable amount of attention to remove all the blood angels insignia - my technique was simple: chop it off with an x-acto knife and call it "battle damage" X-D I'll give more info about how I painted 'em once I get pics you can actually see... :-(

 

http://i28.tinypic.com/2a7hs0j.jpg

 

http://i29.tinypic.com/javv5u.jpg

 

I am SO glad I finally settled on Dark Angels ;)

[Gillyfish]

Wow. I'd love to see some clearer pictures of those terminators if you can manage it, gloriouswolf.

 

Have you managed to play any games of either 40K or Space Hulk?

[Brother Kovash]

gloriouswolf, are you running any squads as assault terminators? If you are, maybe try adding a Chaplain to help out on the charge.

[gloriouswolf]

Here's some better pics:

 

http://i30.tinypic.com/6fbiif.jpg

 

http://i26.tinypic.com/33u3azb.jpg

 

http://i28.tinypic.com/54jli.jpg

 

http://i30.tinypic.com/2mzxkww.jpg

 

http://i25.tinypic.com/xm6auu.jpg