Blood Talons attack allocation problem.

[SamaNagol]

It says you can split your attacks before the opponent has hit you. So if you go first, you can allocate your bonus attacks whereever you want.

[Grimtooth]

It says "Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units."

 

This tells me that when he gets new attacks he can assign them freely to any unit he was engaged with at the beginning of the round.

 

It then continues on to say "Decalre how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit."

 

This tells me that each time you get extra attacks you must declare how you are allocating them before you roll.

 

It seems fairly straightforward to me.

 

How are attacks earned after rolling to hit, rolling to wound, and failing to save at the beginning of combat?

 

Per the BRB on page 33, Assault Phase Summary, Resolve Combat is step 3. Picking a unit, declaring which enemy is going to assault is step 1. Nothing the the BA codex changes this process.

 

So how per RAW are you creating additional steps of allocation in step 3 when they are completed and set during step 1?

[daboarder]

When do I want to allocate my hits? simple, right before I roll to hit as per the rules.

[SamaNagol]

The rules say you can only allocate your attacks before you have been attacked by an enemy though. It is right there in black and white.

[Grimtooth]

It says you can split your attacks before the opponent has hit you. So if you go first, you can allocate your bonus attacks whereever you want.

 

Of course you can where ever you want. That is the whole point of being able to split attacks between multiple units. You would have your attacks going towards those specific units and any bonus attacks created by unsaved wounds by each of those units would go to those units.

 

By your standard, you could launch an assault against a big mob of gretchen with a Warboss attached. Earn a ton of bonus hits while in combat with said gretchen due to easy hits, easy toughness, and no save. Then turn around and attack the Warboss, when you never even declared an assault against him, despite him being an IC? Good luck pushing that agenda since it is completely contrary of all published ruled for IC and assaults and Multiple Combats and not even allowed in the BA codex.

[Isryion]

So when can models engaged with more then one unit split their attacks between units?

 

When do they declare how they are splitting their attacks?

 

These two answers are right in in the bullet.

 

When do you want your dread with blood talons to split his extra attacks?

 

When do you want to declare how you are splitting those blood talon extra attacks?

 

See how the answers don't mesh up?

 

Now feel free to show me where it allows you to split attacks and then declare how you are splitting those attacks when you want to.

 

Because you have a different definition of what "beginning of combat" means, and refuse to apply the parenthetical to the statement directly before it, we won't come to agreement on this, but for the final time, I'll lay out my explanation.

 

Basically, the first sentence of the section we keep quoting says that if before ANY attacks have been made (attacks by any model in the entire combat) if you are in base to base with models from more than one unit you may split your attacks. This is the qualifier. The dread can split its attacks if it starts the combat in base to base with enemies from multiple units. Not if he has enemies in base when he makes his attacks, but at the START of combat.

 

The second sentence "Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit" means that when it is the dread's turn to attack in initiative order he declares how many attack rolls will be made at each unit. He rolls and, if he gains more attacks, declares how many will be made against each unit again.

[Grimtooth]

When do I want to allocate my hits? simple, right before I roll to hit as per the rules.

 

But not at the beginning of combat, as per the rules?

[Isryion]

The rules say you can only allocate your attacks before you have been attacked by an enemy though. It is right there in black and white.

 

So you allocate all the attacks before any model in the entire combat rolls to hit?

 

EDIT: Sama, I think we agree (at least I agree with your post below) I just got confused by the wording here.

[Grimtooth]

So when can models engaged with more then one unit split their attacks between units?

 

When do they declare how they are splitting their attacks?

 

These two answers are right in in the bullet.

 

When do you want your dread with blood talons to split his extra attacks?

 

When do you want to declare how you are splitting those blood talon extra attacks?

 

See how the answers don't mesh up?

 

Now feel free to show me where it allows you to split attacks and then declare how you are splitting those attacks when you want to.

 

Because you have a different definition of what "beginning of combat" means, and refuse to apply the parenthetical to the statement directly before it, we won't come to agreement on this, but for the final time, I'll lay out my explanation.

 

Basically, the first sentence of the section we keep quoting says that if before ANY attacks have been made (attacks by any model in the entire combat) if you are in base to base with models from more than one unit you may split your attacks. This is the qualifier. The dread can split its attacks if it starts the combat in base to base with enemies from multiple units. Not if he has enemies in base when he makes his attacks, but at the START of combat.

 

The second sentence "Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit" means that when it is the dread's turn to attack in initiative order he declares how many attack rolls will be made at each unit. He rolls and, if he gains more attacks, declares how many will be made against each unit again.

 

You are creating a step in the Assault Phase that does not exist. Page 33 for a refresher, specifically step 1 and step 3.

 

You allocate where all your attacks go before combat, whether on one unit or multiple. It doesn't matter if they don't exist yet, you allocate attacks against a unit before combat, not in the middle of it.

[SamaNagol]

You do not have to allocate your hits at the beginning of combat, you have to allocate them before you roll to hit (before the opponent has struck). That is exactly what the rules say.

 

And you say 'do you want to get a bunch of extra attacks from gretchin and allocate them against the Warlord'. It won't ever be more attacks than if you had allocated all of your attacks on the Warboss in the first place..... so what's your point there?

 

I am not looking for an advantage, I am just deciphering exactly what the wording dictates.

 

You can allocate any and all attacks you have, including bonus ones, as long as it is before the opponent has struck before you roll to hit. If the opponent has struck first then you must allocate the bonus attacks to the targets they were generated from.

[Isryion]

So when can models engaged with more then one unit split their attacks between units?

 

When do they declare how they are splitting their attacks?

 

These two answers are right in in the bullet.

 

When do you want your dread with blood talons to split his extra attacks?

 

When do you want to declare how you are splitting those blood talon extra attacks?

 

See how the answers don't mesh up?

 

Now feel free to show me where it allows you to split attacks and then declare how you are splitting those attacks when you want to.

 

Because you have a different definition of what "beginning of combat" means, and refuse to apply the parenthetical to the statement directly before it, we won't come to agreement on this, but for the final time, I'll lay out my explanation.

 

Basically, the first sentence of the section we keep quoting says that if before ANY attacks have been made (attacks by any model in the entire combat) if you are in base to base with models from more than one unit you may split your attacks. This is the qualifier. The dread can split its attacks if it starts the combat in base to base with enemies from multiple units. Not if he has enemies in base when he makes his attacks, but at the START of combat.

 

The second sentence "Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit" means that when it is the dread's turn to attack in initiative order he declares how many attack rolls will be made at each unit. He rolls and, if he gains more attacks, declares how many will be made against each unit again.

 

You are creating a step in the Assault Phase that does not exist. Page 33 for a refresher, specifically step 1 and step 3.

 

You allocate where all your attacks go before combat, whether on one unit or multiple. It doesn't matter if they don't exist yet, you allocate attacks against a unit before combat, not in the middle of it.

 

 

These have nothing to do with allocating attacks. Sorry.

[Isryion]

double post

[Grey Mage]

Now feel free to show me where it allows you to split attacks and then declare how you are splitting those attacks when you want to.

Sure.

 

BRB pg. 41:

 

Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the begining of the combat (before anymodel attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units. Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit.

 

Right there. You can split attacks 'freely'-wich is to say without restrictions- between any units theyre engaged with.

 

You DO have to declare them immediately before you roll them, but that doesnt mean you have to declare all your attacks at once.

 

So its like this: Your Dread is in CC with 3 units, one of wich is an IC. You allocate all of your attacks on the gaurdsmen, hitting 4 times, wounding 4 times, and getting 4 extra attacks. You now allocate those attacks, choosing the veteran squad instead, hitting three times, wounding three times, and getting an extra three attacks. How can you do this? Because you can 'freely allocate' your attacks between the two units and you did so 'immediately before rolling to hit' with them.

 

Pretty simple dont you think?

[Grimtooth]

Your freely allowed to split those attacks at the beginning of combat, not after your opponent has failed an armor save.

[Roland Durendal]

I sort of see where Brother Ramses is coming from, based off what you quoted Grey Mage. Correct me if I'm wrong Ramses, but you're saying they cannot allocate the bonus attacks on the IC because they weren't allocated, "before any model attacked". Reading strictly how it's read, then hits must first be allocated at the beginning of a combat, before anyone has attacked, i.e. rolled to hit. Since these bonus attacks are generated afterwards (i.e. at the "end" of that Initiative turn of combat), they therefore cannot be allocated against a new target.

 

On the other hand, I agree with the majority that the intent of the rule. coupled with a reading of the assault rules, leads one to the conclusion that you CAN split their attacks. Personally I'd have no problem if someone played it that way. In fact, I can see an argument that the bonus attacks start a "new" round of combat at that initiative value, i.e. that the Dread in essence is beginning a new round of combat with his new number of attacks, and thus can can freely split his attacks so long as he does it before rolling to hit.

 

And as mentioned, possibly the easiest solution would be to allocate 1 attack against the IC, and the rest against the squad. That way, if you do generate bonus attacks, you can freely split them between both the IC and the squad.

[shatter]

Your freely allowed to split those attacks at the beginning of combat,

 

right

 

not after your opponent has failed an armor save.

 

Ahh, it doesn't say that. Only before hit rolls are made.

 

Making hit rolls? Go ahead and allocate is what it says.

 

Matt Ward failed to be clear with the BT rules.

 

Someone shoot him.

[daboarder]

Actually Mat ward was Quite specific with the BT rules and this is shown by the thought put into "they continue untill no additional attacks" I just think he either never forsaw this problem or thaught that the answer was pretty basic which to my opinion it is.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

So when can models engaged with more then one unit split their attacks between units?

 

When do they declare how they are splitting their attacks?

 

These two answers are right in in the bullet.

 

When do you want your dread with blood talons to split his extra attacks?

 

When do you want to declare how you are splitting those blood talon extra attacks?

 

See how the answers don't mesh up?

 

Now feel free to show me where it allows you to split attacks and then declare how you are splitting those attacks when you want to.

Personally,I think I said it best when I said "Split your attacks at the beginning and stop trying to take more advantage then the ridiculously powered piece of Wargear allready gives you in the first place" Put your attacks on the IC AND the squad and your set.

[daboarder]

ok perhaps you should stop playing the game like you want it to play and listen to our clearly explained advice instead of taking words out of context or placing to much emphasis on them, this is the english language and every word can have many meanings depending on the way its said so cut it out and go with the basic point its arguments like this that really ruin the game.

[Isryion]

So when can models engaged with more then one unit split their attacks between units?

 

When do they declare how they are splitting their attacks?

 

These two answers are right in in the bullet.

 

When do you want your dread with blood talons to split his extra attacks?

 

When do you want to declare how you are splitting those blood talon extra attacks?

 

See how the answers don't mesh up?

 

Now feel free to show me where it allows you to split attacks and then declare how you are splitting those attacks when you want to.

Personally,I think I said it best when I said "Split your attacks at the beginning and stop trying to take more advantage then the ridiculously powered piece of Wargear allready gives you in the first place" Put your attacks on the IC AND the squad and your set.

 

Just to be clear, this discussion has implications beyond a single piece of wargear, and just because I think something is underpriced doesn't mean I'm going to alter the rules for it.

 

 

One thing of note: The FAQ replaces the word "combat" with "round of combat" in the section of the rules we discuss.

 

The crux of this discussion hinges on when attacks are actually split, and this would apply to any model. This means that if we weren't talking about a BT dreadnaught, but perhaps a captain instead, when would he have to declare where his attacks will go?

 

Position A. Some of us argue that it is simply before that model rolls to hit. Those of us that think this mean "immediately before rolling to hit" applies just to that model

 

Position B. Others argue that he would have to declare before any rolls to hit have taken place in the entire combat, taking "immediately before rolling to hit" to mean before any models roll to hit.

 

A. allows a model to wait until it's initiative to actually declare where its attacks are going.

 

B. forces the players to assign all of their attack allocations before anyone rolls anything at all. This means someone lower in initiative would actually lose attacks if the model they assigned them to was killed before they go.

 

To be clear, those that are supporting B, when resolving a combat that involves multiple units and/or an independent character are assigning all of their attacks in the combat before any roll has been made on either side. Correct?

[Isryion]

How are attacks earned after rolling to hit, rolling to wound, and failing to save at the beginning of combat?

 

Per the BRB on page 33, Assault Phase Summary, Resolve Combat is step 3. Picking a unit, declaring which enemy is going to assault is step 1. Nothing the the BA codex changes this process.

 

So how per RAW are you creating additional steps of allocation in step 3 when they are completed and set during step 1?

 

Picking a unit/declaring an assault really has nothing to do with hit allocation. See my above post for what is at the heart of the issue. In my area, we've always read the rule on p41 to mean option A without question. I'm assuming you have always played option B, and that's the problem and we're not going to be able to discuss dread combat talons until that basic issue is clear, even if they have brought it front and center.

 

Which, to be fair, has nothing to do with the BA codex. It's simply how we've interpreted that issue from the start, which again, is due to how you read the rules differently. I think it's pretty clear that a model allocates attacks before it rolls to hit, but you, and some others, read it to mean that ALL attacks are allocated before ANYONE rolls to hit.

[Roland Durendal]

How are attacks earned after rolling to hit, rolling to wound, and failing to save at the beginning of combat?

 

Per the BRB on page 33, Assault Phase Summary, Resolve Combat is step 3. Picking a unit, declaring which enemy is going to assault is step 1. Nothing the the BA codex changes this process.

 

So how per RAW are you creating additional steps of allocation in step 3 when they are completed and set during step 1?

 

Picking a unit/declaring an assault really has nothing to do with hit allocation. See my above post for what is at the heart of the issue. In my area, we've always read the rule on p41 to mean option A without question. I'm assuming you have always played option B, and that's the problem and we're not going to be able to discuss dread combat talons until that basic issue is clear, even if they have brought it front and center.

 

Which, to be fair, has nothing to do with the BA codex. It's simply how we've interpreted that issue from the start, which again, is due to how you read the rules differently. I think it's pretty clear that a model allocates attacks before it rolls to hit, but you, and some others, read it to mean that ALL attacks are allocated before ANYONE rolls to hit.

 

To continue playing Devil's Advocate, no one is suggesting attacks must be allocated before ANYONE rolls to hit, but rather, at the start of a given Initiative round of combat, attacks for that initiative level must be allocated before hits are rolled. So, example, I have a GH Squad (I4) and a Wolf Lord(I5) going against a Tac Squad(I4) and a Captain(I5). Captain is in B2B with my Lord and my GH's, and likewise my Lord is in B2B with his Tac Squad and the CPT. I5 goes first, and for the sake of the argument I charged so I go first. My Lord allocated his hits however he likes (say 3 on squad, 2 on CPT). I roll hits/wounds, now his CPT goes, and allocates as needed, rolls hits/wounds and we go onto our I4 guys and the process continues. No one is saying that right away the everyone needs to allocate their hits (so before I roll my hits/wounds, the CPT needs to declare his hit allocation, and then I need to declare my I4 hit allocation as does my opponent). And to reiterate what I said earlier:

 

 

My interpretation of what Ramses point is: "They cannot allocate the bonus attacks on the IC because they weren't allocated, "before any model attacked". Reading strictly how it's read, then hits must first be allocated at the beginning of a combat, before anyone has attacked, i.e. rolled to hit. Since these bonus attacks are generated afterwards (i.e. at the "end" of that Initiative turn of combat), they therefore cannot be allocated against a new target." I.e. since attacks weren't allocated at the beginning of an initiative phase of CC, the bonus attacks generated at the end cannot then split off on a new opponent,since you are still technically in the same Initiative CC phase. And if this is how you interpret the rules for CC and the prcess of allocating hits, it makes sense.

 

My own opinion: "On the other hand, I agree with the majority that the intent of the rule. coupled with a reading of the assault rules, leads one to the conclusion that you CAN split their attacks. Personally I'd have no problem if someone played it that way. In fact, I can see an argument that the bonus attacks start a "new" round of combat at that initiative value, i.e. that the Dread in essence is beginning a new round of combat with his new number of attacks, and thus can can freely split his attacks so long as he does it before rolling to hit." Once the initial pase of CC is over at a given initiative value, it in effect restarts at that intiative value since the Dread has attacks his can use, ergo he can now allocate those attacks since it is the start of a "new" combat at the old initiative value. Again this is a logically sound reading of the rules of both the BRB and the BA 'dex.

 

And of course, the simple solution already espoused here: "And as mentioned, possibly the easiest solution would be to allocate 1 attack against the IC, and the rest against the squad. That way, if you do generate bonus attacks, you can freely split them between both the IC and the squad."

[Isryion]

Thanks for the well thought out reply. We don't disagree on the intent and result, though there's a slight difference in how we come to it.

 

My stance is that the first sentence of the bullet is not actually about when or how you allocate the attacks but in fact why you are allowed to. When my initiative rolls around, this sentence tells me I am allowed to split attacks because at the beginning of combat, I was in base contact with models from multiple units. It's the second sentence that tells us when we allocate attacks (immediately before rolling to hit).

 

The next logical question is: Why is that first sentence there then and why does it talk about the beginning of combat? I have a captain (perhaps with a power fist that goes last)in base contact with multiple units:A and B. I have space marines that have assaulted with the captain, but they are only in combat with unit A. Well, at a higher initiative, an opponent could potentially pull a wounded model from unit A that was in base contact with the captain. The captain is no longer in contact with unit A when his turn rolls around, but based on the first sentence, he can still attack unit A because at the beginning of combat, he was in base contact with unit A even though he isn't when his initiative rolls around.

 

My point is that the first sentence isn't really about when you allocate the attacks, but the condition that allows you to split them, which is being in base contact with multiple units when the combat begins. I hope that distinction makes sense, but I also understand it's tough to communicate these kinds of things over the interwebz...

[Grey Mage]

It says "Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units."

 

This tells me that when he gets new attacks he can assign them freely to any unit he was engaged with at the beginning of the round.

 

It then continues on to say "Decalre how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit."

 

This tells me that each time you get extra attacks you must declare how you are allocating them before you roll.

 

It seems fairly straightforward to me.

 

How are attacks earned after rolling to hit, rolling to wound, and failing to save at the beginning of combat?

 

Per the BRB on page 33, Assault Phase Summary, Resolve Combat is step 3. Picking a unit, declaring which enemy is going to assault is step 1. Nothing the the BA codex changes this process.

 

So how per RAW are you creating additional steps of allocation in step 3 when they are completed and set during step 1?

Sure, very simply: Blood Talons say you earn them, so you do. Codex>BRB.

 

Also, your reading is simply incorrect- Step 1 is "moving assaulting units" the units your picking there are the ones your physically moving to. You do not need to move the dreadnaught into a new combat in order to get the attacks from blood talons. The entirety of step one is irrelevant for the purposes of these rules.

 

The entire process of blood talons is done in one step, namely step three of the summary, bullet 2.

 

Your freely allowed to split those attacks at the beginning of combat, not after your opponent has failed an armor save.

No, you must be engaged with the enemy before anyone attacked, you dont need to allocate at that time. You allocate 'immediately before rolling to hit" or your not following the rules.

[DevianID]

I think the entire blood talon bit has been confused by several out-of-context rules.

 

To help clarify:

Who you can attack in a cc is based on who you are in combat with at the start of the combat round. Remember when people argued that you cant attack a new unit in an ongoing assault? Same rule was used there to confuse the issue into playing a rule incorrect.

 

Thus, in the OP, at the start of a combat round, before any blows are struck, we have a furioso engagned in combat with 2 units, a necron lord and a destroyer unit. The furioso is free to attack either of these 2 units with his attacks. The furioso is NOT free to attack any other unit with his attacks, as there are no other units engaged. IE, the furioso cant swing at a necron warrior unit only 1 inch away, as they are not in base contact yet (next turn is a different story however!)

 

Now that we know who the furioso is allowed to attack, as determined at the start of the round, who the furioso is allowed to attack will NOT change during the combat.

 

Now we go through the inits until the furioso goes. He has 4 up front attacks +X subsequent attacks. He can allocate 4+X attacks to 2 total units, the necron lord and necron destroyers, and must do so before rolling that attack to hit. The furioso allocated 4 attacks to the destroyers. He has 2 more attacks. He allocates these to the lord. He has 2 more attacks. He allocates these to the lord. He has 1 more attack, but no enemy units are in base contact, so the furioso stops. Basicly, he is not allowed to declare where the subsequent attacks will go until they are generated.

 

This situation has happened in the past. Namely, with units that can fight at different initiatives. Take a techmarine for example, armed with a powerweapon and a full servo harness. He is engaged with 2 units. At init 4 he must delcare his 3 attacks. He does not need to declare the target of his subsequent 2 powerfist attacks, which will happen at init 1, because he is not allowed to make those attacks yet. At init 1, he then can declare where the additional attacks will go, based on how the initial attacks went.