LSS scouts blow up the landraider...

[Master of the Shields]

So you tool out your scout sarge with a powerfist, combimelta, meltabombs and drop him on a landraider. Yada yadda. So my question has to do with the rest of his squad. How do you equip them? Cc? Shottys? Bolters?

 

I was planning on using a bolter/hb squad this way, but I'm not really sure. I like the idea of an alpha strike team dropping in, blowing armor and then providing fire support in the cover of the wreck. Is this a good plan? Or should I tool them for cc?

[Giga]

Tool them for CC. This way they can reliably kill firebase squads like IG heavy weapon teams, tau fire warriors, devastator squads, lootas, etc. on first turn.

 

Otherwise, don't expect either the LSS or the scouts to survive the enemy turn after they've done their alpha strike.

[Fatuous]

2 shot guns and 2 pistol/cc weapons on mine. I don't take the melta bombs as hope the fist will be enough, but going to have to readdress that as they'll never take out a raider.

 

I like your plan, but I'm not a big fan of bolters on scouts, and have a feeling they may just get chomped up. I'd keep em with the CC weapons or go shot gun.

 

Shot gun, more shots on the way in to assaulting no vechiles, then first casualties removed when in CC.

 

They can take on light vehicles but - AP adds another minus 1 to the damage roll, so not a huge fan of that...........

 

Remember if you go in to the wreck to use it as cover, it is both difficult AND dangerous terrain.......

[mowglie]

Gear them for CC imo, it gives them a wider range of targets they can hit on turn 1.

 

If your opponent doesn't put a raider-or-equivalent on the table, with BP+CCW they can get into assault first turn and win combat vs Broadsides, Obliterators, Lootas, Devastators, basically anything short of really big squads or assault specialists.

 

The -2LD from the storm helps a lot there too.

 

To be honest, I run them without the melta, and I prefer hitting Devastators/Obliterators/Broadsides/Lootas to big vehicles. Without a Whirlwind I don't have another way to tie up or deal with static infantry firebases (particularly in cover), wheras I have lots and lots of ways to deal with a vehicle.

[Master of the Shields]

Gear them for CC imo, it gives them a wider range of targets they can hit on turn 1.

 

If your opponent doesn't put a raider-or-equivalent on the table, with BP+CCW they can get into assault first turn and win combat vs Broadsides, Obliterators, Lootas, Devastators, basically anything short of really big squads or assault specialists.

 

The -2LD from the storm helps a lot there too.

 

Oh poop, I totally forgot about the -2 LD! Yeah it sounds like CC is the way to go with this squad. My buddy is running with Iron Warriors and his obliterators will be in for a little surprise. ;)

[minigun762]

Oh poop, I totally forgot about the -2 LD! Yeah it sounds like CC is the way to go with this squad. My buddy is running with Iron Warriors and his obliterators will be in for a little surprise. ;)

 

Remember that Oblits are Fearless and pack a Power Fist for defense, so they're not totally helpless.

[Master of the Shields]

Oh poop, I totally forgot about the -2 LD! Yeah it sounds like CC is the way to go with this squad. My buddy is running with Iron Warriors and his obliterators will be in for a little surprise. :whistling:

 

Remember that Oblits are Fearless and pack a Power Fist for defense, so they're not totally helpless.

 

Woops i think i meant Havoc squads. Those are the Chaos Heavy Weapons teams right?

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, Havocs are like Devastators, Obliterators are Terminators-literally-from-hell.

 

And yeah, once youve blown up the landraider... assault something, or hop back in your transport and fly off to take an objective later... etc.

[mowglie]

Yes, they're much, much better vs Havoks than vs Oblits. However I think the scouts eventually win the fight vs two Oblits (same cost) more often than not, and only have to be slightly lucky to wipe out three in a single round of assault due to No Retreat. If you add in the bolt pistols and the HB (or HF if you prefer) on the Storm, I'd say that's pretty reasonable.

 

Because the Oblits are fewer and multiwound the sergeant's PF is much more dangerous to them than their PF are to the scouts. Each Oblit kills on average about one scout per round of combat, wheras in the first round, the scout sergeant has like an ~80% chance (?) to ID at least one, or a ~40% chance to ID at least two.

[Master of the Shields]

I like those odds, maybe i won't be too afraid of Oblits after all.

 

So i think i do like the idea of dropping CCW scouts off in a Storm, i guess the only thing i have to ask now is: What are bolter scouts used for? They have scout moves/infiltrate, but is that advantage wasted with bolters?

[Xeonic]

Remember though that those oblits have a 2+ sv, WS4, and powerfists, 2A and 2w each. Your only chance vs them with scouts is totally utterly reliant on S8 IDing them with a powerfist and defeating their 5+ invuln.

 

Realistically your ccw scouts with 3A each on the charge are causing 0.5 wounds before your fist strikes and kills .83 oblits. The Oblits strike with their own fists and kill 2.22 scouts(though your sarge is in no danger). You lose combat, most likely 1 oblit is dead, maybe a wound on the other and you've lost 2-3 scouts. Next round you will most likely finish the oblits off, but generally you'll be left with a sarge and 0-2 CCW scouts, best case, and worst case double KO, or even 1 oblit with wounds left that you failed to kill with powerfist, or who made his save. Of course you can also try to put wounds on the oblits with shooting, 4 bolt pistols and a shotgun can put on .25 wound on average, and you might get a wound out of a hflamer(.22) or multimelta(.28) on the storm.

 

Oblits are a very bad target for scout storm teams. Fearless and very resiliant, they are one of the best units chaos can field. :down:

 

Havoks on the other hand are reasonable target, if it's a small unit. Remember that they can take a fist champ(they probably won't) too and every man gets 2x attacks at WS4 to your WS3. Generally speaking the best way to field havoks is a 6 man team with 3x AC or ML or an 8 man team with 4x of the same.

 

Scout storms epitomize the best used in pairs principle because 2 5 man teams can either split up and take two weak targets or gang up on a stronger squad to bring it down. The LD penalty stacks too, all of a sudden those chaos marines are taking a LD test on LD5/6 instead of 10 or 9. Assuming you win the first round of combat of course.

 

As for blowing up a land raider they do what anything that blows up a land raider does, get assaulted and wiped out by it's contents, if the contents are not shot to death by the rest of your army. Kind of a silly question really. :P

[minigun762]

Because the Oblits are fewer and multiwound the sergeant's PF is much more dangerous to them than their PF are to the scouts. Each Oblit kills on average about one scout per round of combat, wheras in the first round, the scout sergeant has like an ~80% chance (?) to ID at least one, or a ~40% chance to ID at least two.

 

How are you coming up with 80/40%? Are you factoring in using the Combi-Melta as well?

[Koremu]

Oblits are a very bad target for scout storm teams. Fearless and very resiliant, they are one of the best units chaos can field. <_<

But you probably stop the Obliterators from going anywhere or Shooting anything for long enough to got something else there. Obliterators are horrible, but very costly, and tying up a full unit of the with just a cheap (half their price) Scout Squad for a turn could well be worth it.

 

Remember - one Obliterator dead is the base cost of the Scout Squad paid off in one go.

[Chengar Qordath]

You lose combat, most likely 1 oblit is dead, maybe a wound on the other and you've lost 2-3 scouts.

How, exactly, do you lose combat if you've inflicted 2-3 wounds on the Oblits, and suffered 2-3 wounds in return?

[Xeonic]

Well, odds are reasonably good that you lose combat, anyways. :)

 

Stopping the oblits from shooting is a good point, but trading a unit 1 for 1 points value(you're not throwing nekkid scouts out there...are you?) is never a good proposition. What you're doing assaulting oblits is tying them up and potentially(probably) killing them after 2-3 rounds of combat, but you're tying up a 150 pt unit with 100+ pts of assault scouts(assuming no upgrades sans pfist), delivered by a very fragile 60/65 pt AV10 open topped skimmer.

 

I'm not saying it's a bad target though, if you're facing chaos you generally will have to chose between assaulting oblits, assaulting plagues, CSM or 'zerkers(all troops of course hiding in rhinos!), or assaulting a daemon prince.

Given that choice and the important niche they fill, LSS scouts should probably be assaulting the oblits, which will likely be the only heavy firepower the spikey boyz are packing. They might die fighting to the last man fighting given that you'll be facing generally 3x2 oblits, but they'll also be keeping your transports and footsloggers safe for a critical 1-2 turns.

 

I just don't like the idea of sending off 160 pt units to destroy 150 pt units. <_<

[Master of the Shields]

I just don't like the idea of sending off 160 pt units to destroy 150 pt units. :huh:

 

I wasn't planning on using them as an obliterator kill team, i was implying that there were probably worse situations. Only playing, like, 2 games, i haven't encountered obliterators yet, just other Space Marines. I'm new guys :) hehe

[Giga]

Woops i think i meant Havoc squads. Those are the Chaos Heavy Weapons teams right?

Does anyone actually uses havocs?

 

 

 

 

 

IMHO, while the scouts in a lss alphastrike thing is cool, it isn't overly effective in the long run mainly because they give away some extremely easy kill points, and because the LSS takes up a fast attack slot. This is especially annoying if you want to run two such teams (which, I feel, is a real nice first turn alpha strike against things like IG and MEQ), meaning you end up unable to take more then one attack bike/speeder squadron.

 

In other words, LSS should've been dedicated transports for scouts.

[Grey Mage]

Yes Giga, there are people who use havocs, and devastors, quite effectively.

[mowglie]

How are you coming up with 80/40%? Are you factoring in using the Combi-Melta as well?

 

No, I forgot their Invuln save. Let's try that again with working. I'm always worried that I bore people with overkill maths, but whenever I don't write it out, I get it wrong, so here goes:-

 

4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 5+ save = 1/2 * 5/6 * 2/3 = 27% chance of a wound.

 

3A =>

probability of one or more successes = 62%

probability of two or more successes = 19%

 

Still good odds vs two Oblits. vs 3 it goes a bit differently though. The bolt pistols + bp/ccw do like 1 wound, the sergeant IDs the one with 1 wound on it, the 3 oblits kill 3 scouts, you lose combat by 1, pass your morale check, next round the scouts die, but the sergeant takes a second Oblit with him.

 

Well, odds are reasonably good that you lose combat, anyways. ;)

 

Stopping the oblits from shooting is a good point, but trading a unit 1 for 1 points value(you're not throwing nekkid scouts out there...are you?) is never a good proposition.

 

I just don't like the idea of sending off 160 pt units to destroy 150 pt units. :P

 

Vs 2 odds are good that you win. Vs 3, I was mistaken, see above.

 

Given three Obliterators and some Havoks, absoloutely you go for the Havoks.

 

But as you say, given three units of two Oblits, two units of Plaguemarines, and two Demon Princes in a KP game, you go for the Oblits.

 

In other words, LSS should've been dedicated transports for scouts.

 

Oh my yes please...

[Master of the Shields]

I see... so may i ask another question?

 

Scouts with bolters: What are they for and how are they used? It seems the majority of scout squads are armed for CC or with Sniper rifles if their not on bikes. Is it there lower BS?

[Warprat]

I see... so may i ask another question?

 

Scouts with bolters: What are they for and how are they used? It seems the majority of scout squads are armed for CC or with Sniper rifles if their not on bikes. Is it there lower BS?

 

 

I think it's more a choice of Tactical squad (w/bolters) vs. Scouts w/bolters. The bolter scouts are inferior in all ways except the scout movement and setup abilities. Sniper Scouts, on the other hand, allow you to do something a Tactical squad cannot do, which is shooting at more than 24". The lower BS and rate of fire of the sniper rifle are somewhat compensated for by the ability to hit something more often (probably every turn,) and the sniper/rending ability. Because snipers are long range, they can sit in cover and gain the cover save (which helps negate the vulnerability of scout armor.)

 

One option is to take a full squad of Scouts with Storm. Only half get to ride (combat squadded,) but you can take a sarge w/power fist, combi-melta, melta bomb, and 4 CCW scouts. Then leave 4 snipers and a heavy bolter behind to support, perhaps guarding an objective. In Kill Point games you have the option to deploy the squad whole, while freeing up the Storm to attack on its own.

 

Warprat ;)