We are not overpowered!

[BlackSpike]

Offer to swap armies for the next game, then crush him with his own list.

Agreed.

 

What would you field, to beat your own list? What are your weaknesses, and how would you, as an opponent, exploit them?

 

These are questions any good general would be asking anyway <_<

[daboarder]

If you're friend refuses to play you because of something like this then it is unlikely he is going to listen to what we say. simple answer find a friend who isn't so opionated.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here are some of the best things in my opinion about our new codex:

 

* Ability to spam melta, infernus pistols

* Sanguinary Priests

* Assault Marines

* Death Company & Lemartes

* Death Company dreadnaughts with Blood Talons

* Descent of Angels

* Stormravens

* Landraiders as dedicated transports

* Baal Predators

 

If you are taking advantage of any combination of the above then you should have a big advantage over many other armies. You are fast, precise & very hard hitting.

 

0b

[SamaNagol]

Space Wolves dex is far more tournament viable than the BA one. It does better against every other top tier list. No weaknesses.

 

However it has no obvious super deathstar units, aside from 5 ThunderWolves with a Lord and 10 ablative wound Wolves, and no one can afford to buy that in models. BA however have some obvious hideous units that scare noobies but aren't tough to deal with by accomplished players.

 

So to a beginner BA will seem overpowered compared to the SW strengths of incredibly cheap, sturdy Troop choices and excellent psychic defence.

[Priest33]

all dex's are equal once they have been updated to the new rules set. New Dex's seem more powerful only because people havent played against such a army before.

[the jeske]

that is not true . new IG are great best army in 5th ed I would say , nids on the other hand suck , they didnt even dominate tournaments when they were fresh and some people might not how tested enough against them . The new dexs are many things , but not balanced.

 

I dont think the SW are more tournament worthy then BAs , maybe if someone tries to put guard or DC in to their lists . But normaly the best lists there are out of meq just spam troops . BA troops are in no way weaker then what SW can bring , they are different [no counter attack , but rhinos/razors are faster for example] .

[Morticon]

However it has no obvious super deathstar units,

 

WG with Lord, Ruin Priest, Wolf Priest in Raider. CRAZY hard to kill and kills anything it touches in combat.

[eldaran]

However it has no obvious super deathstar units,

 

WG with Lord, Ruin Priest, Wolf Priest in Raider. CRAZY hard to kill and kills anything it touches in combat.

 

properly kitted out, it's not that hard for the cost - you're looking at the unit itself costing in the region of 600 points, so a unit that is around 850-1000 points. Yeah, it'll destroy most things, but for that cost, i'll take my grey hunters squads. It's also not that survivable, and easy to stop - blow up the raider with a sacrificial speeder/similar.

 

The real strengths of the wolves codex is a bunch of cheap units working together to overcome your opponent's army; kinda like a real wolf pack, actually... ;)

[Roland Durendal]

I have a similar situation:

 

In my metagame I am actually undefeated with about a dozen games played... It got bad enough that my friends do not want to play any of their 4th edition armies against me at 2000 points, but would rather play at 1500 where we all agree their codices do better. The only exception to this would be the Chaos army which does fairly well at 2000 and usually ties with me.

 

I would ask what army your friend plays and at what point level? If he's playing a much older codex against you at 2000+ I would try playing at 1500 or 1750 with him.. BA really get to flex their muscle at 2000+ so dropping to 1500 tends to lessen the punch to the face I find.

 

Cheers,

Theikos

 

Hate to be the SW who jumps in here, but I couldn't agree more with this. Dropping the points level down (if you're not already playing at these levels), forces more conservative list building and play style as you have to decide which "new" goodies you want to spend points on. I find both 4th and 5th ed armies play better at this level. And while it IS possible to build a super strong competitive list at the lower levels, it usually comes with a high cost: fewer models/units.

 

As a quick anecdote (which I hate to harp on elsewhere but I think it could help show they're not "overpowered" I recently played a BA friend of mine at 1500.

 

His army (IIRC):

Reclusiarch

9X DC w/ 4PW in Rhino

2X 9 man RAS squads with Melta/Fist in rhinos

2X Sang Priests w/ PWs (one in each RAS squad)

2X AC/LC Preds

2X Baal Preds

 

It wasn't an uber list or the most optimal list, but it was a decent list with good shooting and good CC. He conceded the beginning of turn 3 (primarily because he was having HORRENDOUS dice rolls and at this point it was 4-0 KPs in my favor).

 

Point is, maybe try scaling it down in points and playing them. And here are some reasons why: a). games will go by quicker so you all can play more, which means more experience and chances to learn; ;). it forces you to become a better BA list builder and player due to less points available and having to decide whether you want a shiny new toy or a more reliable standard unit; and c). if your buddies are using an older 'dex or haven't found the "sweet spot" for their army yet, it gives them more opportunity to do so.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Thing I found out tonight about the Dreadnaughts that make them,well..slightly less overpowered. If you take away one of their arms,they lose all the special rules for the blood talons,since it says you have to have a pair of them for it to work.

 

Not the easiest thing to do but...there ya have it.

[JamesI]

Thing I found out tonight about the Dreadnaughts that make them,well..slightly less overpowered. If you take away one of their arms,they lose all the special rules for the blood talons,since it says you have to have a pair of them for it to work.

 

Not the easiest thing to do but...there ya have it.

They still are lightning claws, just lose the extra attacks bonus.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Thing I found out tonight about the Dreadnaughts that make them,well..slightly less overpowered. If you take away one of their arms,they lose all the special rules for the blood talons,since it says you have to have a pair of them for it to work.

 

Not the easiest thing to do but...there ya have it.

They still are lightning claws, just lose the extra attacks bonus.

Well yes...but they don't get the "Oh i get to keep attacking for every wound i cause" tomfoolery...Which...I can't help but think is purposterostydink I mean...hey look at me..I get to rip through an entire squad no matter how freaking big it is just because it doesn't have invulnerable saves.

[Hfran Morkai]

I think the biggest scare is the buff the Sanguinary Priests offer, with their area of affect and (IMO cowardly) ability to hide within a transport to remain alive. Sure it's 50 points for a model with one wound but you stick him in a Land Raider (moving around as a support platform) and you have issues.

 

It's a strong list, not overpowered though, it will still die pretty much in the same way as other Marine lists.

[ZeussS]

I won approx 75% of my games with the PDF. Right now I about 40% with the new codex.

 

I was at 80% plus too, James.

 

Im now

 

11-6-2 Nothing sterling by any stretch.

 

I find these stats revealing... I wonder if it's to do with having to learn new rules and changing tactics, rather than a weaker army list. Will be interesting to see if the stats improve (or get worse) over the next few months as we get used to the list and learn its best strategies / biggest weaknesses.

[JamesI]

I won approx 75% of my games with the PDF. Right now I about 40% with the new codex.

 

I was at 80% plus too, James.

 

Im now

 

11-6-2 Nothing sterling by any stretch.

 

I find these stats revealing... I wonder if it's to do with having to learn new rules and changing tactics, rather than a weaker army list. Will be interesting to see if the stats improve (or get worse) over the next few months as we get used to the list and learn its best strategies / biggest weaknesses.

 

 

I know with me, the old BA dex I pretty much found what worked for me and used it for 3 years (Lemartes/Corbulo/VAS assault force).

 

With the new dex, it took a little over a month to find a good way to run the army that fits my style. I think I got distracted by some of the shiny toys and once I got over that and returned to what worked for me in the past (Reclusiarch, Priests, Vanguard) I was better off.

 

Still like shiny toys (as can be evidenced by the Furioso Librarian), but toned it down to get a better army.

[Roland Durendal]

With the new dex, it took a little over a month to find a good way to run the army that fits my style. I think I got distracted by some of the shiny toys and once I got over that and returned to what worked for me in the past (Reclusiarch, Priests, Vanguard) I was better off.

 

Still like shiny toys (as can be evidenced by the Furioso Librarian), but toned it down to get a better army.

 

I think that is sage advice right there. A lot of people are suffering (both BA players and those who play against them) from the "oo shiny new toy" syndrome. BA players are trying all the new kit in the arsenal and discovering new, powerful combos, and their opponents are still trying to learn and adapt to these new units/combos. The "this army is overpowered!!" phase will go away soon. People said the same when SM first came out, then again when IG got revamped (only there still are lingering complaints of them), it happened to the Wolves ("oh noes! TWC are uber unfair!!", "JotWW is the most unbalancing game pwoer EVAR!!", etc), and it's happening to BA now. Just take it in stride, and maybe find out what they think is sooo overpowered about your army, and then either: a). play at a points level which limits your ability to take these units or :). take something else instead until they feel comfortable enough playing against the new 'dex.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

But shiny toys are so much fun! :P

 

0b

[Isryion]

With the new dex, it took a little over a month to find a good way to run the army that fits my style. I think I got distracted by some of the shiny toys and once I got over that and returned to what worked for me in the past (Reclusiarch, Priests, Vanguard) I was better off.

 

Still like shiny toys (as can be evidenced by the Furioso Librarian), but toned it down to get a better army.

 

I think that is sage advice right there. A lot of people are suffering (both BA players and those who play against them) from the "oo shiny new toy" syndrome. BA players are trying all the new kit in the arsenal and discovering new, powerful combos, and their opponents are still trying to learn and adapt to these new units/combos. The "this army is overpowered!!" phase will go away soon. People said the same when SM first came out, then again when IG got revamped (only there still are lingering complaints of them), it happened to the Wolves ("oh noes! TWC are uber unfair!!", "JotWW is the most unbalancing game pwoer EVAR!!", etc), and it's happening to BA now. Just take it in stride, and maybe find out what they think is sooo overpowered about your army, and then either: a). play at a points level which limits your ability to take these units or ^_^. take something else instead until they feel comfortable enough playing against the new 'dex.

 

Totally agree. This is pretty much what I've told some local people who think that the BA "broke the game." They need to at least play against it first because just reading it, it does look like the list that a poster above put together. But, no one can fit all that in a decently built army. I think most people end up with 1-2 of the new "toys" otherwise it's just too expensive. Heck even a couple of sanguinary priests, which most people now build into the army cut down the model count pretty significantly.

[JamesI]

Totally agree. This is pretty much what I've told some local people who think that the BA "broke the game." They need to at least play against it first because just reading it, it does look like the list that a poster above put together. But, no one can fit all that in a decently built army. I think most people end up with 1-2 of the new "toys" and everything else is pretty much the same as it was before.

With both our codex and the wolf codex, I saw a lot of people freaking out over rules they misinterpreted. So a whole bunch of whining over stuff being broken, and the examples of brokenness they brought up were wrong!

 

I don't think either codex is overpowered (I do think overall the wolf codex is stronger than the BA dex though). I do think newer dexes (such as IG, wolves, BA) are more powerful than some of the older stuff that just needs to be brought in line (especially some of the older dexes).

[Morticon]

I find these stats revealing... I wonder if it's to do with having to learn new rules and changing tactics, rather than a weaker army list. Will be interesting to see if the stats improve (or get worse) over the next few months as we get used to the list and learn its best strategies / biggest weaknesses.

 

ZeussS, it was definitely a combination of both.

The list that I had greatest success with, was still workable and fieldable within the points limit, but lacked certain elements.

 

Corbulo in last edition allowed my whole army to get FC. In addition, the DC proved to be the most valuable asset and my best combat unit.

 

Now, Corbs only has the FC range in 6" and the awesome DC I had require more points AND cant be controlled.

That forced a rework.

 

The basis of the article I wrote about "Effective BA" in my sig, has pretty much changed entirely, so the elements we need to include in our armies need to be readdressed too.

I still havent played with as many "toys" as I could have.

 

I will almost def. not be using the Sang Guard anytime soon. I LOVE the Libby Dread, but hes also unlikely to see the field.

The Raven, (i have one!! :lol: ) doesn't find its way into the majority of my 1650 competitive lists and after playtesting ive been underwhelmed by the FlameStorm Baal.

 

So, that leaves very little toys for me anyway.

 

 

 

I think playing to our greatest strengths has now increased our base cost quite dramatically, not to mention racking up the KPs (easy Sang Priest/Rhino chassis kills anyone?).

 

That being said, there are (as with all codicies really) there are a few "power builds".

Quite a few of the power builds often rely on spamming units, which is why the majority of gamers that game for more than just winning dont run with those. (Who wants to play 4 types of units in a 2k game :S).

 

BA seem quite easy to "break" (power wise) and also seem to have a few very solid builds (and potentially many more undiscovered) but the flip side of the "many viable options" coin is that there will be options that are simply not synergised with each other- leading us to more defeats.

 

All teething problems though!!

My first month of new codex games was MUCH worse than my second month.

 

Something like

 

4-4-1 to 7-2-1

[Rizara]

Hey morticon i agree with you there. I have only played 3 lists and my first 2k list i put together is overall a fairly solid list. But even after playing my first 3 games and winning all of them, i have been tweaking my list considerably that i have opted to change my list up. It just means that i will now have two variable 2k points lists, but as i played the games i started noticing some weaknesses or issues that i have to gradually overcome. Whats odd is that i have won the 3 battles i have played, but i still noticed issues that i just wasn't completely happy with. Part of it could have been dice rolls, but part of it was also the list.

Some units i noticed performed extremly well, like a furioso librarian and my death company, while other units not as great. My biggest issue in my first list was the lack of anti tank at a distance. I was fielding essential 2 baals, 2 redeemers, and 2 razorbacks plus a dread on the board. I had 5 twin linked assault cannons and 2 multi meltas as my anti tank. Granted the redeemers and baals draw lots of the heat off the bat and the raiders can take a beating but a lucky shot takes them out. I have loved every one of my assault cannons, but the redeemers in my list were still slow so my two large assault squads rarely got to see the heat of combat.

So i have revamped my list to make a more balanced and effective list. I am not overwhelming my list with all the new toys but i am trying to take advantage of our strengths while trying to minimize inherent weakness.

My new list has a larger death company with a reclusiarch, who might be a more expensive HQ but i think will be more effective than a commander. I am dropping the two land raiders in favor for some autocannon/lascannon preds for some stronger anti tank, and i am reducing two of my assault squads to smaller squads and dropping them in the faster razor backs. My only weakness now is probably my smaller units, however they are in faster rides and will get across the board together so i can group my 4 troop units into two units of two squads tag teaming up on targets. I also dropped the twink linked flamer back for a more effective assault cannon, the flamers were nice, but it wasn't until turn 3 that i really got to use them constantly. Maybe turn 2 but that depended on whether or not it didn't get taken out or if i had to drop off some troops.

My new list brings to bear some more mobile firepower, as my new list now bears the same 5 assault cannons, 1 HKM, 2 autocannons, and 4 lascannons for anti tank, plus the enemy will have 4 predators, 3 razorbacks, 1 rhino and now two dreads to shoot at, so there target priority will be high. Does this mean my list is overpowered, surely not. It just means i have opted for a more mechanized force and taking advantage of the way my enemy should think when it comes to target priority.

I am enjoying some of the new toys, but compared to some of the other angel lists i have seen played in the area, they are taking alot of the new shinys and people are complaining. But when you compare my list to theres, you will see a difference in playstyle. I know for a fact the other BA player that i saw playing had astorath, lots of death company, stormravens, baals, and who knows what else. He was taking a list trying to add all the new stuff and not sure what his record is, but he is definitely trying to squeeze in as many new toys into a single list. I am more for building balanced lists that are effective and can take on anyone, not just fielding the shiny stuff. Oh yeah..when i met this other BA player his first words were..hey if your playing blood angels, wheres your stormraven at?

[Brother Grimm]

This is basically the rule of new codex's and the like...

 

When a new army comes out... people will think they're overpowered because the new units and tactics throw people off... sooner or later people will get used to the army and they won't be considered so tough...

 

All people need to do is change their tactics... that's just it...

 

Learn and adapt people.... that's the rule of warhammer... to Live... Adapt... and Destroy your opponents with Bolter and Chainsword!

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

the blood talons are the only thing that comes close to being broken on its own, although the almost all fast vehicles thing is a bit of a problem too, but they don't compare to things like Ancien Regime of C:DE, JotWW, lumbering Leman Russ or most of what's in C:'nids (not saying they are totally unbalanced, but they essentially play by a different set of rules than almost every other army.)

 

it's not broken, but it's a book with units that really play to their strengths, speed, mobile fire power and tough assault units. i suppose part of it can be how you feel about FNP on its own. it's a bit of a broken rule to begin with, but making it available to almost every unit in an army can be a bit much.

[Night Runner]

Like all the 5th edition codices, C:BA is not overpowered or broken, but on a new power level. The good thing with the new codices is that they are full of character IMO and they all have unit types, characters and builds that should have been tone down or not seen the light of day. With the C:BA it is definitely the Furioso Blood Talon rule and the Demon Prince impersonating Mephiston. (I'll have to keep an eye out for him the next time my Great Company goes on a Great Hunt looking for Russ).

 

Having said that, I can understand why many SM players see the C:BA as broken or overpowered. IMO the C:BA is unfairly designed compared to C:SM but not broken. It is a matter of perception. Consider:

 

- The BA have the most vehicles, the most dreads (something that should be boasted by the Iron Hands), the most pyskers, the most unique vehicles, the most unique weapons, the most Chaplains in a SM Codex army.

 

- They can have dreads as Troop choices, Assault marines as troop choices, elites as troop choices without having to take a special character or HQ choice.

 

- They can have Dreads as elites, or as Troops (as stated already) and as Heavy choices without having to take a special character or HQ choice.

 

- BA are the only SM Codex army to have demon prince level characters in their army, even though they are special characters.

 

- The most elite choices.

 

What many SM players don't get is that at 1500pts, it is irrelevant whether or not they have the most vehicles or dreads etc... in their army, because frankly how many can you use or buy for that matter, but many players see the game from a fluff-perspective and hence this 'reality' or situation just pisses them off.

 

The BA have a FOC flexibility that puts C:SM to shame, especially when one considers that it is catering for a very wide branch of Space marine armies that do differ slightly to the standard Ultra build. Point in case - Raven Guard, Iron Hands, White Scars and Salamanders. They have only been addressed with special characters through Chapter Tactics, but many players resent the fact that they have to take a specific SC to play close to an army style they do not see represented in the FOC.

 

The only exception in the C:SM is with White Scars. If the Captain is on a bike then bikers can be Troop choices. This is a good thing and there should have been more rules like this with the basic HQs and FOC builds in C:SM.

 

Rant Over (although I prefer to call it a fair and balanced opinion :P)

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Actually Iron Hands got completely ;) ed, as C:SM relegates them to the horde of successor chapters. They didn't even get a first-founding blurb!