Fine Tuning a DIY chapter: Brazen Slayers- help appreciated

[Jwave]

Greetings B&C brothers- long time reader and former hobbyist. I've been somewhat out of the game for some time now but have finally gotten time to give this the proper attention that it needs. Long story short, I've got a new chapter I was meaning to create ever since the previous edition of the DIY chapters but never got around to starting. That being said, I have a rough presentation of the Brazen Slayers chapter:

http://coolminiornot.com/pics/pics14/img4bc385d289d0f.jpg

Color wise, I've gone with desert themed- bestial brown body, bleached bone pauldrons, scorched brown trim, but here's where I run into a dilemma- what color should the chest crest be? I've started with brass and gold variations on the first few prototype models, but now I've got to make my decision from these 4 choices: bleach bone, gold, brass, or tin bitz.

After this, I have to finalize my chapter logo. So far I've knocked a few variations of the downward sword with various shapes (delta, various triangles, circles, etc) but these 6 stood out to me as the most prominent. Seeing as I've decided to make these guys a xth founding from the Warrior Eagles chapter, I've tried to work in their winged chapter icon into my own. I'm also trying to stick with the sword theme as I'm trying to incorporate alot of the Dark Angels icons/sprues into these models (plus each marine is going to be armed with a sword for symbolic/tactical purposes).

Lastly, I've been reviewing a number of DIY chapter Index Astartes for ideas/inspiration to make my chapter more unique/avoid predictable themes, and have been aiming to make these guys more of a fleet based chapter (as per their parent chapter), and the only divergence from the Codex Astartes is that they follow more space wolf ideals of using their new initiates as assault squad marines, and later on as they become more experienced they become more 'tempered' and controlled with range weapons. They have almost an insurgent type style as they avoid fielding armor aside from speeders, drop pods or thunderhawks for insertion, and have an almost Raven Guard approach to battle with quick strikes as opposed to siege/open warfare.

I've also tooled with the idea of having either a monastery/primary keep on a designated 'home world' on a mountainous/desert death world in their region of space where they recruit/reequip when they aren't crusading, but the region is so detrimental to conventional vehicles that tanks and bikes are impractical, thus the chapter is more keen on aerial vehicles. The few people of this world are hot blooded and very religious in their worship of the Emperor and are quick to kill those who exhibit signs of psychic abilities- somewhat shaping the chapter as well by reflection of a small number of librarians and an abundance of chaplains.

I'm always open for further suggestions or ideals to help shape/refine this chapter idea that I've been kicking around for a while, and at the very least if I can get some direction with the crest color and icon vote, I'd really appreciate it too! Thanks again for reading.

- Jwave

[Jacobius]

I don't feel qualified to give you advice on the background to your chapter as I'm still stumbling through the process of getting my own idea refined. I will say that the desert deathworld is interesting and the colours are well chosen

 

As for the chest colours, I'd say the bleached bone skullwing/aquila looks the best as the tinbits or brass might be a bit dark?

 

I find no. 1 or no. 6 the most appealing for your chapter badge. No. 2 suffers a little from having the sword lost a little in the halo, 4 and 5 look a little awkward but 6 suggests a nice even X shape. Both ideas are tied well to your chapter idea, the first three suggesting their piety and the last three suggesting their tie to their parent chapter. Really depends which you want to emphasise and what you're prepared to model/paint onto your models over and over again.

[NightrawenII]

For the Chest colour, I would say bleached bone, because it has the best contrast. I can't see the gold one over the bolter. :)

 

The Chapter logo. Roll d6. ;)

Joking aside, the no. 3 is most appealing, the question is "How good are you painter?"

 

For the fluff, some good ideas. Now it depends how do you implement/explain them.

[Jwave]

No need to feel discouraged Jacobius! Actually I've had a good deal of time today to revise some of my rough ideas already- I have to admit looking at the chapter symbols that I can see how the standing swords with wings in the middle of them are a bit off, and the iron halo is best centered on the first one. I think the 3 chapter badges in the picture below are my top considerations at this point.

As for the crest, I'm going to try getting mock ups to see what the actual paint on models looks like verses on the SM painter- I have to admit though its hard to distinguish, the brass actually turns out decent. However I'm probably going to be more inclined to take a more vibrant approach rather than subtle as the main color (bestial brown) and the trim (scorched brown) aren't that distinguishable from one another- going with tin bitz might just bleed into the sea of brown I think ><

Anyway I've spent a good deal of time going through squad markings and thought this set up is ideal- allows for squad roman numeral in the lower right corner, and can keep the icons/numbers black without bleeding into the markings. I'll most likely have the left knee cap signifying the company colors.

As for sergeants, bleach bone helmet and/or talbard/robe/hood rather than adding symbols to the squad marker. Assault squads are lead by a new Initiate in order to give said Initiate leadership experience and reign in the eager neophite marines under their command (ie, not sergeant necessarily so they retain their brown helmet).

Lastly, just some fluff related stuff- I've been continuing to look into the concept of a mix chapter fleet and home world garrison- tossed around the idea of reserve companies of mostly new trainees, and veterans residing over the sole chapter monastery or misc chapter keeps in neighboring systems to maintain regional stability, recruitment/training, and strengthen fleet material and manpower when needed, while battle companies travel in fleets to further the Chapter's agenda and answer the call of aid to those who need it (somewhat akin to a dual 'sword and shield' roles). Just some food for thought!

-------------

*edit*

>< Took too long for that last reply- anyway thanks too for the suggestion Nightrawen II. Initially I liked the crossed swords idea too, but with the iron halo, it would end up kinda messy- I figure the less stuff to have to draw in that tiny a space, the better!

As for my painting- If I remember to thin my paints and maintain my brushes better, I can do a decent job (thank god for foundation paint and inks!) but nothing worth bragging about. I was thinking of possibly getting a custom made transfer sheet made as I've seen a source for that somewhere on this site, but if not I'll have to give it a shot with the brush... or just make a cut out and do it the easy way- OR make something really complex like a mold with green stuff...

As for the fluff, I'm still tooling a few things around. I have some concepts I just need to really drag them through some grim and dark future to make it fit the theme of the universe they shall be forged from!

[Jwave]

I might have to drop the bone colored crest, as once it comes to the sergeants and bone colored helmets, it gets a bit overdone. Really considering Tin Bitz at this point, but still torn between that or gold.

[Jacobius]

I'm still liking the haloed sword or the monowinged sword. The biwinged sword smacks of Dark Angels to me. What's the reasoning behind the half blue halo?

 

Gold will jump out a bit more I guess and 'yellow' is closer to brown than 'grey' which would fit your theme a bit better...I guess.

 

-J-

[Ace Debonair]

I might have to drop the bone colored crest, as once it comes to the sergeants and bone colored helmets, it gets a bit overdone. Really considering Tin Bitz at this point, but still torn between that or gold.

 

Gold, without a doubt. It looks miles better. :rolleyes:

The badge with the spiky circle and the sword gets my vote, too. Very cool!

[Jwave]

cool, thanks guys- I've been fishing my color set up elsewhere and I've been getting mixed votes- I'm still in the process of getting a mock up for comparison- truth be told I haven't had great luck with the crests- tin bitz is rather hard to highlight, and I still have mixed feelings on the gold but I think I need to review some decent paint guides in order to get a proper result... maybe burning gold as opposed to shining as its more vibrant... either way, if I can get some tips on how to highlight bronze/tin bits I'd appreciate it so I can do a proper model comparison between the two.

 

And to answer your question Jacobius, the half blue/white halo is my homage to the Brazen Slayer's parent chapter- The Eagle Warriors (whose armor was half blue and white respectively down the middle). Each icon is an homage- be it the wing or colors. I'm hoping to keep that a theme as well as the primary use of swords in the chapter's iconography (plus I plan on using a good deal of Dark Angel's model pieces for the chapter so wings and swords are going to be rather prevalent). But I find that I'm leaning more towards the halo than the wings, so thanks for the vote Ace Debonair.

[Codex Grey]

I was initially going to vote for the winged versions of the symbol, but the sword with halo looks good, and I love the way the Eagle Warriors Homage looks too. For some reason I think blue goes really well with brown. Maybe you could add a tiny bit more blue, like for example on the eyes.

 

Lastly, I've been reviewing a number of DIY chapter Index Astartes for ideas/inspiration to make my chapter more unique/avoid predictable themes, and have been aiming to make these guys more of a fleet based chapter (as per their parent chapter), and the only divergence from the Codex Astartes is that they follow more space wolf ideals of using their new initiates as assault squad marines, and later on as they become more experienced they become more 'tempered' and controlled with range weapons. They have almost an insurgent type style as they avoid fielding armor aside from speeders, drop pods or thunderhawks for insertion, and have an almost Raven Guard approach to battle with quick strikes as opposed to siege/open warfare.

Cool. Have you given any thought as to how they became like this, why they act like this? Mission Necessitation? Homeworld influence? Both?

 

While the lack of heavy vehicles are fine, the reason is not. If their 'homeworld' is not suited for vehicle training, then they would just train with vehicles elsewhere.

 

EDIT: The Eagle Warriors being fleet based, is that official fluff?

[Jwave]

Wow, word from the author of two very awesome DIY chapters- I am a fan! That being said, I'd be open to tooling around with the idea of getting more blue into the mix- I've fallen into my old Ultramarine habits and sometimes tend to rarely deviate from them sadly, so this might be a good chance to experiment.

 

As for the fluff, I have alot of ideas/concepts- what I've kinda 'vomited' here is just bare essentials. I was thinking of maybe having a combination of their primary chapter keep/monastery is on a deathworld where wheeled/track vehicles are impractical, low techmarine numbers, and basing their overall approach to warfare the same way the Raven Guard do persay (less armor/termies, more jet packs, speeders, and infantry support). Maybe during their founding they weren't given adequate armor from the Eagle Warriors, or some disaster befell the chapter's armory/techmarines early, or being fleet based they feel that vehicles are more trouble than they are worth deploying and tend to be counter-productive to operations which require finesse or stealth (I've got a good number of IA's I'm reviewing to get an overall feel for how authors have designed their chapters and why they conduct war the way they do- yours included of course)

 

I'm still 'iffy' on the homeworld idea, but this concept of offensive and defensive companies (ie- sword/shield) has sparked my interest. The idea that maybe the Chapter still utilizes their fleet warfare as their primary means of bringing the fight to the enemies of the Imperium in the form of their Battle companies, while the Reserve companies garrison key Chapter keeps throughout a 'home' subsector to serve as resupply and training bases for the crusading fleets, and maintaining regional stability via patrols or answering local distress calls. Plus its a good way of working in some 'local' flavor from the planets that they recruit from in order to shape the Chapter's beliefs/ideologies (such as fierce tribes people who shun psykers and dogmatically worship the Emperor- causing the chapter to have little, yet strong Librarians, and a large number of Chaplains in the ranks/hold positions of office, for example).

 

I have to apologize, I still have alot of rough ideas floating around that I really need to start refining before I get ahead of myself! Either way, I greatly appreciate the constructive criticism.

 

And about the Eagle Warriors/fleet based- yes this should be cannon (p. 24 latest SM codex). I may be a bad wargamer, an average painter, and an amateur writer at best, but I'm a fluff fanatic! I won't make something as fact unless I'm certain that it fits the criterion of the universe it shall be forged! But never hurts to question/double check.

[Ace Debonair]

Wow, word from the author of two very awesome DIY chapters- I am a fan! That being said, I'd be open to tooling around with the idea of getting more blue into the mix- I've fallen into my old Ultramarine habits and sometimes tend to rarely deviate from them sadly, so this might be a good chance to experiment.

You could use blue rather than bone to denote veterancy, perhaps?

Failing that, blue kneepads or shoulder trim might look good.

 

Plus its a good way of working in some 'local' flavor from the planets that they recruit from in order to shape the Chapter's beliefs/ideologies (such as fierce tribes people who shun psykers and dogmatically worship the Emperor- causing the chapter to have little, yet strong Librarians, and a large number of Chaplains in the ranks/hold positions of office, for example).

Devout emperor worship does not lead to chaplains. It's a common mistake, but space marines as a rule don't worship the Big E as a god - and the same is true of chaplains. :)

 

I look forward to seeing this chapter develop - they sound pretty good!

[Codex Grey]

Wow, word from the author of two very awesome DIY chapters- I am a fan! That being said, I'd be open to tooling around with the idea of getting more blue into the mix- I've fallen into my old Ultramarine habits and sometimes tend to rarely deviate from them sadly, so this might be a good chance to experiment.

Thank you kindly! I would personally not overdo it though. Just some small details in blue, like the aforementioned eyes, some guys with blue cloth in the form of capes, loincloths, and maybe every other random marine with a kneepad in blue, as Ace suggested. And of course the blue glow of plasma and power weapons.

 

As for the fluff, I have alot of ideas/concepts- what I've kinda 'vomited' here is just bare essentials. I was thinking of maybe having a combination of their primary chapter keep/monastery is on a deathworld where wheeled/track vehicles are impractical, low techmarine numbers, and basing their overall approach to warfare the same way the Raven Guard do persay (less armor/termies, more jet packs, speeders, and infantry support). Maybe during their founding they weren't given adequate armor from the Eagle Warriors, or some disaster befell the chapter's armory/techmarines early, or being fleet based they feel that vehicles are more trouble than they are worth deploying and tend to be counter-productive to operations which require finesse or stealth (I've got a good number of IA's I'm reviewing to get an overall feel for how authors have designed their chapters and why they conduct war the way they do- yours included of course)

The two highlighted reasons are in my opinion all you need. Sure, they need be developed, but I would rather not see another Chapter who has suffered a horrible defeat that changed them forever.

The way I see it, the Slayers have always had few heavy vehicles, all the way back to their founding, and maybe even lost a few in their early battles. Over time, the Slayers' operations see them using far more infantry and fast moving support, and their doctrine lessens their need for heavy vehicles. While they eventually build up their armory with an acceptable amount of tanks, the many years of fighting in this certain way has turned into a preference for fast, infantry based combat. So while they have tanks for when they absolutely need them, they rarely use them.

Also, this way, the homeworld isn't the reason for the doctrine, but it reinforces the theme.

 

I'm not sure a lower amount of techmarines is such a good idea, as I think they do very important important maintenance work, aside from seeing to tanks. One such thing being the ships of a chapter fleet, which your chapter probably has slightly more of than in other Chapters, and see fleet operations which are not common either.

 

Good to see you're learning from other IAs. That's how I did it when I first came to the boards. ;)

[Jwave]

I think I might be more inclined to go with the concept of slight use of blue as opposed to something more dynamic like a helmet- maybe I can see about reworking the talbards so they can be half blue and white possibly.. but the more I'm getting into it, the more its growing as a theme so now I need to start considering whether this is the direction I want to take these guys or not.. but first things first- still working on the chest crest. I'm having mixed results (most likely my technique needs refinement) so here are the latest test runs of dark bronze and gold.

As for the icons, I'm still equally torn unfortunately- swords define these guys, but the link to the Eagle Warriors is really where I'll have to make the split- either introduce the dual blue/white, or heavy use of wings. I initially started out going in that direction, but I can also see how these guys could use a tad bit more color. I'm gonna have to look into a tutorial for making custom decals soon methinks.

And fluff- yes Ace, the Imperial Creed isn't the same as the Astartes belief, but I was thinking of trying to find a way to tie in the theme that there are a larger number of chaplains in their chapter in part because of the stock of people they draw from. Codex, I see your point about simplifying the necessity of warfare rather than some tragedy- the only thing I'm concerned about working in is how the chapter has gained such preference for stealth warfare more fit for those of Corax's geneseed as opposed to Guilliman. I was thinking about the idea of maybe the Chapter Master was an Eagle Warrior's Captain of an assault company which had preference for close quarters and infantry... maybe they gained much experience from a joint campaign with the Raven Guard or one of their founding chapters before the Eagle Warrior Captain and the accompanying cadre were split from the Eagle Warriors to raise/found the Brazen Slayers? I'm gonna be rather busy for the next week so hopefully I'll get more time to review plenty of IAs.

Thanks again for the input guys!

[Jacobius]

The gold in the 3rd row of images is the way to go. Stands out, is shiny and fits well with the rest of the colours.

 

I vote for the haloed sword with the half blue centre, if your skills/budget is up to it.

 

Codex Grey has hit the nail on the head with his suggestions regarding the vehicles/techmarines.

 

-J-

[Jwave]

Just a minor update

Went with gold eagle crest for the chest, and finally started getting squad icons on the few models I have made. Just figured out how I'm doing the company badges.

as you can see- I kept the sword/halo icon, and kept the same theme of half blue/(codex company color) as a means of showing homage to both their parent chapter, and to the Ultramarine's original colors.

Veterans have the bone white helmets, and blue lenses, and squad number is listed on the right shoulder in the bone white areas of the shoulder pad. I have decided to keep the same squad identifiers as listed in the above image (blank neophyte, slash for assault marine/land speeder pilot, vertical line for tactical squad, right half black for devastator squad, checkered black for veteran, 2/3 black for HQ with skull icon in the center).

Still working on fluff (I HAD something of an outline, but my computer suffered a massive OS failure so now that I'm finally caught up with reinstalling everything I'll get on that probably for next week hopefully). I've decided to place them in the Ultima Segmentum where the battle companies crusade onwards out from their chapter's region of space (I'm considering somewhere near the Mordant sector, somewhere bordering the Reductus Sector of the Segmentum Tempestus as it seems somewhat empty- allowing the Brazen Slayers reign over a small cluster of binary systems for establishing chapter keeps for their reserve companies to patrol, train, and recruit from).

Still need to figure out some more concrete story in their founding (how they were supplied, what they were given by their parent chapter, where they got their ships, who their chapter master was, how they came to fight the way they do, holy artifacts or inspiring figures, epic battles, etc, the meat and potatoes of what makes space marines space marines). All in due time- not even half way through my compiled IA chapter backgrounds. Will keep at it.

edit added company information. Each company captain has a title and mythological creature attached to their company that is incorporated into their personal heraldry. Battle companies are named after winged creatures attributed to their ongoing crusade outwards from their home system, taking flight to the enemies of the Imperium. The Reserve companies are named after native desert creatures from their 'home' system. The names should have somewhat of a 'dweller' or protector theme associated to them to reflect that they watch over the home system of the Brazen Slayer's various chapter keeps. I'm also considering the 10th company will be responsible for overseeing the primary chapter keep or fortress monastery (in mythology, gargoyles ward against evil). Charging the new neophytes with the task of defending the home while their full fledged battle brothers are fighting among the stars seems like a vital step towards instilling appreciation for the chapter's history.

1- Wyvern (eternal sentinel)

2- Phoenexan (fire hawk)

3- Ospraetyn (storm falcon)

4- Raedawn (thunder raven)

5- Griffyn (avenging eagle)

6- Leopyn (desert lion)

7- Hydraylen (lair serpent)

8- Kaynisan (dune hound)

9- Golen (stone protector)

10- Gargoylen (cavern guardian)

[Jwave]

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/026/f/7/warhammer_40k_space_marines_ultra_and_diy_chapters_by_jwave001-d4nonxq.jpg

 

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Jwave/new%20work/059.jpg

 

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Jwave/new%20work/058.jpg

 

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Jwave/new%20work/081.jpg?t=1323387163

 

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Jwave/new%20work/085.jpg?t=1323386274

 

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Jwave/new%20work/082.jpg?t=1323386249

 

(edit to fix image links)

 

Its been a while but finally brushing off the models, watering the pots, and slowly getting back up into the hobby after a hiatus. Here's my 5th company captain, still trying to work out details with chapter IA but wanted to get this guy out of my head and onto the table. Soon to follow: kitbashed jump chaplain, apothecary, and still conceptualizing a command squad sergeant (probably going to go with older mk power armor, powerfist and plasma pistol, OR lightning claws), standard bearer and misc special weapon support model, a storm raven with the chapterhouse extended hull mod, a standard assault squad, and finishing my basic tac squad. So many ideas, so little time!