Chaos Dreadnaughts...

[sword brethren]

hey guys :lol:

 

i am thinking of buying a chaos dread to fight in my iron warriors army.

 

if i was marines i would drop pod in a shooty dread behind and pop a cap in my enemies rear. unfortunatly chaos have no drop pods and sometimes they go nuts and shoot everything.

 

my question is...

 

if i arm it with 2 CC weapons and 2 heavy flamers, when it fire frenzies can i choose where i shoot the flamers and if i have to shoot at a sqaud of mine can i shoot only one guy on the edge of the squad?

 

thanks

 

SB

[Kabbala]

Just because you could potentially shoot your own unit, does not mean you change the way you fire the weapons. You would still need to cover as many targets as possible with the flame template and roll /allocate wounds as normal. And I believe you can only upgrade on of the weapons to a flamer if memory serves.

[sword brethren]

your right it is one flamer, and thank you for clearing that up for me :)

[Shas'o R'Vre]

i am thinking of buying a chaos dread to fight in my iron warriors army.

Iron Warriors fluffy dreadnoughts don't work. I've tried.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Kythnos]

i am thinking of buying a chaos dread to fight in my iron warriors army.

Iron Warriors fluffy dreadnoughts don't work. I've tried.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

They often enough did for me. So I wouldn't be so definite about this, although they suck a lot of times, of course.

[sword brethren]

they may suck but thats a good price to pay for awesome when you have 3 friends you play with and its all in the name of fun, beer and pizza...

 

i mainly collect for the fun of building, converting and painting so a dread would be cool to have whether i use it or not.

 

 

just wondered if there was a way around the whole, "lets kill everyone" outlook...

[Jeffy.Gee]

If your friends or gaming club are cool with it, just buy a droppod and play with that. Replace the storm bolter with a twin linked bolter and pay the points listed in the loyalist club. If it's all in the name of beer and fun, why not? Just remember to leave it at home if you do a tournie.

 

JG

[Rain]

Especially that there is no reason that Chaos shouldn't have drop pods. Hell, the Steel Brethren (which are a splinter faction of the IW) are specifically stated in the codex to make extensive use of drop pods, but then they're not an option in the codex. Gav-ing ridiculous. That said, it's obviously up to your gaming group, and some people may well take issue especially with the usual slippery slope argument about such things.

[Paulochromis]

You would still need to cover as many targets as possible with the flame template and roll /allocate wounds as normal.

Surely the placement of the (any) template is at the shooting player's discretion?

When placing the small blast marker over a squad of Ork Boyz, one usually tries to find a spot with:

-- the greatest number of boyz under the template whilst also

-- minimizing the effect of scatter dice.

This is considered "optimal" because more often you are looking to seriously damage the squad.

 

But perhaps you still want them to be around after shooting so you can (multiple) assault to take advantage of:

-- pulling them out of cover (they're obliged to move towards you as part of Defenders react!)

-- being able to consolidate after winning combat

-- tarpitting

This could be achieved by picking a single (or just a few) figures on the edge of the squad.

 

I see this as perfectly acceptable - why would a chaos dread be operating at maximum efficiency during fire frenzy?

In fact, I would expect the dreadnought to be more effective when in better control of his senses/emotions.

 

Cheers, Paul.

[the jeske]

why would a chaos dread be operating at maximum efficiency during fire frenzy?

because the rules say so . you cant shot with half a squad to "not kill too many" , it is the same here.

In fact, I would expect the dreadnought to be more effective when in better control of his senses/emotions.

and this has absolutly nothing to do with rules.

[Paulochromis]

In fact, I would expect the dreadnought to be more effective when in better control of his senses/emotions.

and this has absolutly nothing to do with rules.

that's fair. it was offered as a rationale for RAI vs RAW. but I see that's wrong now, see below.

 

why would a chaos dread be operating at maximum efficiency during fire frenzy?

because the rules say so . you cant shot with half a squad to "not kill too many" , it is the same here.

ok, home now, and had a chance to read the rules, which do say maximum coverage.

But do you often see someone on the receiving end of a flamer pointing out to the firer that if they lay down the template differently that it will increase their losses?

 

Cheers, Paul.

[Whitefireinferno]

I always let my opponent make sure he does it when Im loosing something and make sure he agrees when I use templates just so there is no issues.

[the jeske]

But do you often see someone on the receiving end of a flamer pointing out to the firer that if they lay down the template differently that it will increase their losses?

sometimes . they wait to not to point it out , then after all rolls are made call a judge to DQ for illegal use of template weapons or at least hit show the judge that your having rules problems and next time when they play someone from your team [on the same tournament] the chance that they will get DQ will be bigger , because the judge will remember that you tried to cheat one time already.

[Paulochromis]

I am so glad I don't play where you play (yet).

[brother heckengar]

Taking dreadnaughts make sense to me always, as a chaos player. In my World Eater`s army, I keep 2 of them around at all times. If your looking for a way to drop them in on your friends or anyone else. There is the Forge World Dreadclaw Assault Pod, handles a chaos squad or a dreadnaught. It also can use for broading actions, and also can fly off on it`s own to be reused.

[Captain Idaho]

I think part of the fun of being a Chaos player should be the chaos in a game. I think there should be more of it, but correctly balanced so a player isn't completely at it's mercy. After all that is what fun is all about, just ask Ork players! Some Chaos players are far too serious...

 

Think a more powerful Chaos force but unpredictable and sometimes will shoot your own troubles or suffer perils of the warp or some such. Chaos Dreads should sometimes shoot their own troops, but you should have a flip side to this, in that you have an incentive to do take those units.

 

However, fire frenzy is only a 1 in 6 chance so I think people make too much a big deal about it.

 

Anyway, that is a topic for another day.

 

You always have to maximise the amount of hits you have with a template, so there is no wiggle room in mind when you end up shooting your own models.

[Hellios]

I think part of the fun of being a Chaos player should be the chaos in a game. I think there should be more of it, but correctly balanced so a player isn't completely at it's mercy. After all that is what fun is all about, just ask Ork players! Some Chaos players are far too serious...

 

Think a more powerful Chaos force but unpredictable and sometimes will shoot your own troubles or suffer perils of the warp or some such. Chaos Dreads should sometimes shoot their own troops, but you should have a flip side to this, in that you have an incentive to do take those units.

 

However, fire frenzy is only a 1 in 6 chance so I think people make too much a big deal about it.

 

Anyway, that is a topic for another day.

 

You always have to maximise the amount of hits you have with a template, so there is no wiggle room in mind when you end up shooting your own models.

 

Fire frenzy is a 1 in 6... but there is also the other crazy effect which can be just as annoying (or more so) if it happens at the wrong time... say you are guarding an objective (so it will be contested) and then in turn 4 or 5 you run off... The Chaos dreadnought really good enough to make up for its short comings... Ork units on the whole are better... although tank hunters make me cry when I think about what they could do to space marines if they would only stop shooting that immobilised rhino with no weapons XD... The Shokk Attakk gun is just awesome...

[the jeske]

After all that is what fun is all about, just ask Ork players! Some Chaos players are far too serious...

yeah only chaos aint a comic relif of w40k . chaos does not equal random and not working .

there is a difference between doing d3 shots or having a good chance to to surive a blown up truck , then a chaos khorn lord that 1/3 of the times does nothing , has a good chance of wounding himself and on top of that not being eternal warrior dieing to any str 8 weapon .

 

the old chaos [3.5] dread rules were good , both good and bad edge [not that I would have used them] . the dreads , possessed or everything what you would call "chaotic" is plain crap and unplayable in the Gav dex.

However, fire frenzy is only a 1 in 6 chance so I think people make too much a big deal about it.

ok I dont know how you play , but w40k is a table top game . it is about maximizing the chance to do stuff with minimal cost and with minimal lose . If I take a dread [which are not cheap] I have to discard other units . Because ofthe way our codex is build I cant take fewer troops and I cant take 0 HQs , this means I have to scrap hvy support [aka oblits or defilers if someone is going for a hth list] . this means a dread now has to either anti tank or hth . now low attack and slow walkers suck at hth to begin with , so this already makes them bad in few kind of armies . then comes the anti tank . anti tank is all about control . a stuned tank/support unit is offten just as good as a blown up tank [not that it is bad to blowup stuff , only our dreads dont have the pods to land near and use melta guns] . to do that I need to put 2 shots minimum in to my target and 3 if I want to be sure that something happens . 3 dreads both rolling d6 not doing what I want on 1 or 6 ... yeah suddenly they start to luck very bad . But lets say I like dreads and take one for the looks/fluff . each time I prepare for the next turn I have to put a second unit in support of the dread[but not too near] , so if in case it gets crazy they can do its job. Even without the chance of the dread opening fire on your own units , it is bad enough to make the unplayable .

[sword brethren]

this is why i was looking for a way through it because if im almost in charging distance, lets say 12" away. i get fire frenzy. i either

 

1. shoot my unit with my flamer and TLB twice if its closer

2.or, i cant shoot the flamer which it what would have done the nasty damage anyway.

 

if im fighting nid army or something else CC orientated i dont want to give them the charge or if im fighting a dakka army unit it free them up to shoot again that turn because if they are worth their weight to focus my dread on they will probably survive the TLB fire.

 

i could get the dread claw, except that its expensive.

 

why chaos dont get drop pods or assault claws in the real codex it a mystery, i dont think anybody thought that through and i very much hope that in the next codex we get them and maybe some legion specific units, other than the 4 chaod god's favourates. maybe iron warriors could have artillery, alpha legion could have better stealth units, night lords could get some fear inducing units, word bearers could have some special rules for an unholy chaplain (cant remember their name)

 

i understand that people see the chaos in a chaos army as fun and unpredictable but often despite being a bit of a laugh it happens to much and becomes plain annoying.

[Spacefrisian]

I expect the chaos pod to find a place in the next codex until than its Imperial armour time.

[Captain Idaho]

ok I dont know how you play , but w40k is a table top game . it is about maximizing the chance to do stuff with minimal cost and with minimal lose . If I take a dread [which are not cheap] I have to discard other units . Because ofthe way our codex is build I cant take fewer troops and I cant take 0 HQs , this means I have to scrap hvy support [aka oblits or defilers if someone is going for a hth list] . this means a dread now has to either anti tank or hth . now low attack and slow walkers suck at hth to begin with , so this already makes them bad in few kind of armies . then comes the anti tank . anti tank is all about control . a stuned tank/support unit is offten just as good as a blown up tank [not that it is bad to blowup stuff , only our dreads dont have the pods to land near and use melta guns] . to do that I need to put 2 shots minimum in to my target and 3 if I want to be sure that something happens . 3 dreads both rolling d6 not doing what I want on 1 or 6 ... yeah suddenly they start to luck very bad . But lets say I like dreads and take one for the looks/fluff . each time I prepare for the next turn I have to put a second unit in support of the dread[but not too near] , so if in case it gets crazy they can do its job. Even without the chance of the dread opening fire on your own units , it is bad enough to make the unplayable .

 

I'm glad you told me it is a table top game, as I wasn't aware of that before you posted this. :devil:

 

Seriously, it is not about maximising the chance to do stuff with minimal cost and minimal loss. It is about playing a game for entertainment purposes.

 

And instead of trying to pick a fight about why something isn't worth taking, try reading my entire post. Read this, emphasis add now:

 

I think part of the fun of being a Chaos player should be the chaos in a game. I think there should be more of it, but correctly balanced so a player isn't completely at it's mercy. After all that is what fun is all about, just ask Ork players! Some Chaos players are far too serious...

 

Think a more powerful Chaos force but unpredictable and sometimes will shoot your own troubles or suffer perils of the warp or some such. Chaos Dreads should sometimes shoot their own troops, but you should have a flip side to this, in that you have an incentive to do take those units.

 

Chaos Marines should be the most powerful but should also be the most flawed out of all the Codex books for power armoured armies. They should be nasty to face and put your army above that of your opponents, but also have plenty of flaws your opponent can take advantage of to balance things out.

 

So basically I am advocating things like Chaos Dreads being better, like same stat but also being harder to kill to represent their frenzied mad bull theme, but also suffer from occassionally blowing up your own stuff. Aspiring Champions behaving like Commissars when their squad's fail their moral tests, Raptors getting a major boost when charing into assaults but also rolling dangerous terrain to represent the unreliable nature of their overcharged, primitive jump packs, Berzekers should have Rage etc, etc.

 

Yes I don't like the current Codex as I feel it is bland and boring, I also don't like the daemon weapons etc as I don't think they add much character to the army or enough variety. But I don't think army needs to be just a spikier version of Space Marines. If you want are reliable Marine army don't play Chaos, that's how it should be.

 

yeah only chaos aint a comic relif of w40k . chaos does not equal random and not working .

 

Fun does not have to equate to comedy.

[Hellios]

Fun does not have to equate to comedy.

 

Yes but Orks are the comic relief of 40k when a shokk attack gun goes crazy, the ork player is cool with it. When the trukk blows up and zooms around the ork player deals but it could easily be in his favour. This is how orks play. Chaos on the the other hand is serious business, we are the arch-enemy, the evil ones and we are coming for you... our presence should inspire fear in you not "oh LoL your dreadnought shot you!!1111!11!!!!1!" Randomness is ok but as long as you have some ability to control it. Possessed would be of far greater value if you rolled for their ability before you deployed them... you have to change your battle plan but you don't have a wasted ability due to how you have deployed... The old (or depending on how you read the current rules) dread where you wouldn't shoot things behind you gave you the ability to control things if you were careful... The Old daemon weapons could hurt you but unlike the current rules you got the idea that a few chaos lords might actually survive more than 3 battles. Spawn... how they move is random (I don't have a problem with this) but other things make them crap. The problem is these units don't have enough upsides for points to make up for the downsides.

 

The current dex isn't that fun... maybe if you combined CSM and Daemons (with restrictions) it would be more fun... or if you used the old dex or a mix between the old and the new dex... I loved to play against the old dex... the lists were always different (sure some reoccurred) but far more options than the current abortion.

[Captain Idaho]

Well I would consider some element of control neccessarily. Like you say, the abilities of Possessed should be rolled before deployment etc Dreads should have an inbetween mechanic to 3.5 and 4th edition. Not turning to face to the nearest unit, rather firing at the nearest unit in their front 90 degree fire arc firend or foe. (3.5 actually had a rubbish mechanic, it was purely fire at the nearest enemy unit and only at a friendly if there was no other unit in line of sight, which almost never occurred. Players actually hoped for it!).

 

But players can't expect their Chaos army to be a souped up Space Marines army. The hint is in the name! :)

[the jeske]

Seriously, it is not about maximising the chance to do stuff with minimal cost and minimal loss. It is about playing a game for entertainment purposes.

so losing because your army is full of sub par choices is fun ?

 

I think there should be more of it, but correctly balanced so a player isn't completely at it's mercy

GW knows only two ways of doing random stuff . either it is crap [like the chaos stuff right now] or it is technicly random , but actualy always good [DE drugs , the way chaos drugs worked in 3.5 dex] . GW will never create a correctly balanced set of random rules for chaos . That is why I would rather see non of them of the only choice is either them being crap or OP. Or to make an example . imperial tech is "wild" too but aside for the rhino being able to repair itself there is no trace of it in the rules[no chantes , no swinging a hammer to make stuff work , random system activation etc] .

Think a more powerful Chaos force but unpredictable and sometimes will shoot your own troubles or suffer perils of the warp or some such. Chaos Dreads should sometimes shoot their own troops, but you should have a flip side to this, in that you have an incentive to do take those units.

GW does not change stats of units , unless there are new models for it . There are no plastic chaos dreads planed . no new possessed [or rather the possessed we have now are new] and unless they are going to make new rules for spawn fr WFB we wont see new spawn models . So even if we do get a new dex shortly[doubt that] those units wont have change stats . Not that being av13 or having double attacks on frenzy[like it had in 3.5] would be bad for dreads , it just wont happen.

 

Fun does not have to equate to comedy

.

well chaos random stuff aint even sad it pathetic . Orks on the other hand are fun and they random stuff was always ment to be that.

 

But players can't expect their Chaos army to be a souped up Space Marines army. The hint is in the name!

what does that have to do with anything ? the dominatant army is picked by the likes and dislikes of the DT . If they wanted they could make DA best .

[templarboy]

I am with the jeske on this one. I will not take a dread. Period. I own 4 FW chaos dreads because I am hoping that they won't suck soon and I love the models. Neither will I take possessed. The argument that chaos is all about chaos is silly really. Losing to a superior player or losing to bad die rolls is just the nature of the beast. Losing because my LC equipped dread smokes my LR and then does nothing useful for the rest of the game is not fun. Having my groovy chaos lord smack himself in the face with his DW is also silly. Do SM or IG or even eldar have to put up with this garbage? There never seems to be a beneficial chaos "randomness". It always seems to suck. Don't even get me started about our lame psychers.