Chaos Dreadnaughts...

[CuznP]

Chaos dreads to take a bit of finesse to use effectively on the battlefield, and at first I felt the same as many that they were crap... that was until I started using them. They are GREAT! You just have to be clever in their positioning and facing and make sure that they have a very specific role.

Then you get a 1 in 6 chance they won't do what you want in one turn.

(Not too horrible odds)

A one in 6 chance that they do what you want exceptionally well in a turn,

(Fire frenzy with a plasma cannon and missile launcher makes things dissappear!)

and then two thirds of the time they are giant obedient puppies willing to do whatever their master bids!

 

Chaos Dreadnoughts... give 'em some love!

[Antagonis]

I have a bit of a soft spot for things that are stompy. Thus that itch is scratched with dreads and defilers.

 

I usually take my '3 stooge-naughts' All with ccws and bolters. And then play the armour facing game as they run up. The bolters will not do too much damage to the side facings of their buddies and with their number of attacks, they are a real threat that will take some killing.

 

Yeah, not the absolute greatest unit out there, but still a laugh to use that will do some damage.

 

and if they get stopped from assauting by rolling a 1, 8 twin linked bolter shots is nothing to scoff at!

[CuznP]

It seems that many people are having trouble with their Dreads shooting their own guys when they frenzy. I'm confused. Shooting my own guys in Fire Frenzy is a super rare occurrence and when it does happen it is because I have not been paying attention or have been lazy and overlooked things.

 

Fire Frenzying Dreads are quite safe!

[Captain Idaho]

If they are close enough to the enemy a fire frenzy is great too.

 

I understand wanting an element of control, but I really think people have to change your mindset on gaming. And has anyone ever lost a game because of a Fire Frenzy Dreadnought?

 

Chaos should be brutal, anarchic and a little unpredictable. It's in the fluff. That is why I advocate things like Aspiring Champions executing a model on a failed moral test and counting as fearless, Dreads being mad bulls that tear chunks out of opponents but occasionally shoot things you wouldn't normally like them to etc.

 

I am honestly optimistic about a 5th edition Codex for Chaos. So far I haven't seen a single Codex release since 5th edition that was poor. Every one was characterful and varied. I am confident GW will create a decent and balanced Chaos Codex next time.

[Hellios]

If they are close enough to the enemy a fire frenzy is great too.

 

I understand wanting an element of control, but I really think people have to change your mindset on gaming. And has anyone ever lost a game because of a Fire Frenzy Dreadnought?

 

Chaos should be brutal, anarchic and a little unpredictable. It's in the fluff. That is why I advocate things like Aspiring Champions executing a model on a failed moral test and counting as fearless, Dreads being mad bulls that tear chunks out of opponents but occasionally shoot things you wouldn't normally like them to etc.

 

I am honestly optimistic about a 5th edition Codex for Chaos. So far I haven't seen a single Codex release since 5th edition that was poor. Every one was characterful and varied. I am confident GW will create a decent and balanced Chaos Codex next time.

 

I've seen it happen... fire frenzy in the first turn popped a predator... then continued to stand still and fire frenzy for the next 3 turns and as the chaos player needed to advance... that meant his units were between the dread and the enemy (even if you play that they can only fire in the front 180 arc he was going to get shot)... so after his dead doing nothing for him until near the end of the game (where it did nothing significant) along with it removing his predator straight away and causing a bit of damage elsewhere.... I can't say for certain that it lost him the game but it damn well didn't help his game at all and may have lost it.

 

I've also seen a dread lose a game a few times due to a chaos player being forced to use it to contest objectives (AKA most things are dead) and then the dread getting rage and chasing something leaving the objective uncontested.... which was then taken by one of his opponents surviving troops....

 

Take me as a 1kson player... dreadnoughts present a unit that could really help boost my AT. However they would be the most vulnerable units in my army (you know they will attract fire), if I want to advance my sons fast then they will be behind me... and even if they just shot the nearest enemy unit when they frenzy then 1/3 of the time they still wouldn't be shooting what I need them to take out. When chaos dreads work for you they can be great... but too often they can suck... it is why as an Eldar player I never take wraith units without a nearby seer because they cost to much to have them sitting around for a turn not doing what you want.

[the jeske]

(Fire frenzy with a plasma cannon and missile launcher makes things dissappear!)

dude nearest target this means against meq your shoting a str 7 and 8 weapon at rhino [most of the time , if you play against a LR rush build you just wasted two shots]. and even that only if there are no chaos units closer. and even if they do shot at a unit it is what 2 dudes under plasma template one RL [and there is a chance to miss with both] it is a bit more then 1 dead meq ?so kind of miss the make things dissappear part

 

And has anyone ever lost a game because of a Fire Frenzy Dreadnought?

well considering they take the slots of oblits and have to fill in the anti tank spot in the chaos army , then yes . even if they dont go crazy [again with 2 minimum taken that is being very lucky] they still have less shots . I mean realy idaho would you use dreads without vulkan that go crazy 1/3 of the time in a sm list when you can take MM attack bikes or even preds for the same points ?

 

 

So far I haven't seen a single Codex release since 5th edition that was poor

DA were done after the 5th ed rules were ready . chaos were done after the 5th ed rules were ready . nids suck as viable list in 5th ed . but yeah loyalist marines and Ig had it great.

[CuznP]

dude nearest target this means against meq your shoting a str 7 and 8 weapon at rhino [most of the time , if you play against a LR rush build you just wasted two shots]. and even that only if there are no chaos units closer. and even if they do shot at a unit it is what 2 dudes under plasma template one RL [and there is a chance to miss with both] it is a bit more then 1 dead meq ?so kind of miss the make things dissappear part

 

um... dude. Most of the time I don't play against a LR rush build and I'm sure that a good percentage of others don't either so that point is moot. Next, it is the closest VISIBLE unit not the closest. Dreadnoughts are vehicles and thus draw LOS from their weapons thereby giving them a relatively narrow 2 x 45 degree danger zone. With my BS4 I have a better than 50% chance of killing 2 meq (unless he has special saves) with the missiles then 2 plasma templates which could (in your situation of incredibly well spaced apart models) kill another 1-4 marines outright. (again unless there are special saves) So... I have potentially decimated a combat squad or at least forced a leadership check. And then there are other armies besides meq...

 

well considering they take the slots of oblits and have to fill in the anti tank spot in the chaos army

 

I don't understand.. Dreadnoughts are Elite choices. They have completely different roles.

 

I mean realy idaho would you use dreads without vulkan that go crazy 1/3 of the time in a sm list when you can take MM attack bikes or even preds for the same points .

 

You do realise that Fire Frenzy only affects Chaos Dreadnoughts...

[Whitefireinferno]

dude nearest target this means against meq your shoting a str 7 and 8 weapon at rhino [most of the time , if you play against a LR rush build you just wasted two shots]. and even that only if there are no chaos units closer. and even if they do shot at a unit it is what 2 dudes under plasma template one RL [and there is a chance to miss with both] it is a bit more then 1 dead meq ?so kind of miss the make things dissappear part

 

um... dude. Most of the time I don't play against a LR rush build and I'm sure that a good percentage of others don't either so that point is moot. Next, it is the closest VISIBLE unit not the closest. Dreadnoughts are vehicles and thus draw LOS from their weapons thereby giving them a relatively narrow 2 x 45 degree danger zone. With my BS4 I have a better than 50% chance of killing 2 meq (unless he has special saves) with the missiles then 2 plasma templates which could (in your situation of incredibly well spaced apart models) kill another 1-4 marines outright. (again unless there are special saves) So... I have potentially decimated a combat squad or at least forced a leadership check. And then there are other armies besides meq...

 

Or you end up shooting your own troops and end up with some brutal accurate plasma cannon hit and there goes your PM's/Zerks because if your things are closer there the ones being shot, oh and with most non MEQ armies they WILL be dead so it Don't matter

 

well considering they take the slots of oblits and have to fill in the anti tank spot in the chaos army

 

I don't understand.. Dreadnoughts are Elite choices. They have completely different roles.

 

Nope sure they have different places in the FOC BUT they are there for the same reasons to kill stuff and the Oblits do a better job and If we want a Elites choice thats better Termiecide at least that could earn its points back

 

I mean realy idaho would you use dreads without vulkan that go crazy 1/3 of the time in a sm list when you can take MM attack bikes or even preds for the same points .

 

You do realise that Fire Frenzy only affects Chaos Dreadnoughts...

 

He knows this you missed his point when there are better things that are not going to gib your own models you take the safe ones would a loyalist take something that stomps through his own troops NOPE I would much rather have a DC dred with Rage than your dreds at least mine are either gonna chase something or kill some enemys but yours either pissess around or shoots your own guys Hmmm great Idea that.

 

look mate coming from a Ex chaos player their dreds are useless and chosen or termiecide are far better choices for the Elite slot and Oblits are BY FAR the best thing in heavy every wonder why those are in the top tier lists because they are better than the other crap.

 

Just listen to the Jeske Because he is right.

[Captain Idaho]

I probably would take Chaos Dreads if I was a Chaos player. I don't like "meta gaming" so I wouldn't go all out with Obliterators (maybe a single unit). But then I am just speculating, as I have never tried to build a Chaos list to a flavour I like.

 

I probably would use a Chaos Dreadnought in a Marine army. I can find points for them somewhere :P

[Justicar Valius]

I know I wouldn't, I play elite armies for a reason. So I can place a unit somewhere and pretty much know that it will still be there next turn so I can plan how to use it next turn. A chaos dread doesn't get in because no matter what I do I can't plan for eventualities.

 

Sure the jeske can sound a bit mean and ruthless but he is a tourney player and IS always right on these matters.

[Captain Idaho]

Sure the jeske can sound a bit mean and ruthless but he is a tourney player and IS always right on these matters.

 

No, he isn't.

 

He is often correct about things, but he looks at things in a vaccuum coloured by his own experience. No-one is always right.

 

(Almost) Everyone plays Mech now, and the game is often played up close and personal, particularly towards the end of a game. When the Dreadnought actually suffers from it's rage actually matters. If it's turn 3 onwards there is a good chance the nearest unit will be the enemy. This is on the assumption you play the Dread like a Chaos Dread and not a loyalist Dread (hanging back when it should be advancing on the enemy).

[CuznP]

If you guys are shooting your own troops with your dreads when they frenzy then obviously you don't know how to play them.

 

Look Here

[Kythnos]

If you guys are shooting your own troops with your dreads when they frenzy then obviously you don't know how to play them.

 

Look Here

 

Not that discussion again... no side will convince the other, as both ways to play the Dread are supported by the rules and have some flaws too. The intention (considering the rules of the 4th edition, when we got our codex) was probably, that it shoots your own troops, if they are closer. And that's it for me. You can play it the other way round, but don't say, that's the only right way.

[sword brethren]

that discussion is a head scratcher as i reckon its shoot twice at the nearest visable unit, be it mine or my enemy's.

 

half the time i think id be nearer my forece so turning around and heavy flamering twice is an issue but i think its just a flaw of having a chaos dread, ive come to terms that sometimes it may do what i want and charge face first into my enemy first turn (hopefully and usually gaunts or imperial guard chimeras)

[Hellios]

If you guys are shooting your own troops with your dreads when they frenzy then obviously you don't know how to play them.

 

Look Here

 

While I tend to agree with how you play the dread rules... people often disagree not good in a tourney unless it has been decided beforehand and not good when you just want to play a friendly game and some paranoid so and so now thinks you are trying to cheat him out of a win. Also if you play mech chaos you either have to slow your game plan, risk shooting yourself or play your dreadnought in an isolated fashion, walking around at funny angles and hope... So I would still not say they are ideal and as I mention rage can be an issue if you need him to hold an objective... If your understanding of how a chaos dread plays was more common then yes I might actually use one.

[CuznP]

both ways to play the Dread are supported by the rules

 

That's not so.

 

If your understanding of how a chaos dread plays was more common then yes I might actually use one.

 

By RAW I can't see any other way to play them. You should use one (two are better!)

[the jeske]

Most of the time I don't play against a LR rush build and I'm sure that a good percentage of others don't either so that point is moot.

that is like saying , most people dont play against good eldar or IG builds . LR rush do exist and actualy are more offten played in non tournament[am guess your hinting at that] settings .

 

With my BS4 I have a better than 50% chance of killing 2 meq (unless he has special saves) with the missiles then 2 plasma templates which could (in your situation of incredibly well spaced apart models) kill another 1-4 marines outright. (again unless there are special saves)

first of all your anti tank shouldnt be shoting at units . second of all how is that different from oblits . both have BS4 , both can use [to make it more simple] template weapon . only the oblits will use 2 plasma and you will use one plasma and one frag . but the oblits will always shot the things you want , they can unlike the dread be LoS shielded , they will not stop shoting because they are stuned or shaken , it is easier to get cover for them AND in the case you dont want your anti tank to shot at troopers , they can use 2 lascanons or melta or double tap MC with plasma . in fact because they are relentless the twin linked plasma have an better chance to kill 2 meq [ignoring the chance for frenzy here] then a RL/plasma dread.

 

 

 

QUOTE

dude nearest target this means against meq your shoting a str 7 and 8 weapon at rhino [most of the time , if you play against a LR rush build you just wasted two shots]. and even that only if there are no chaos units closer. and even if they do shot at a unit it is what 2 dudes under plasma template one RL [and there is a chance to miss with both] it is a bit more then 1 dead meq ?so kind of miss the make things dissappear part

 

 

um... dude. Most of the time I don't play against a LR rush build and I'm sure that a good percentage of others don't either so that point is moot. Next, it is the closest VISIBLE unit not the closest. Dreadnoughts are vehicles and thus draw LOS from their weapons thereby giving them a relatively narrow 2 x 45 degree danger zone. With my BS4 I have a better than 50% chance of killing 2 meq (unless he has special saves) with the missiles then 2 plasma templates which could (in your situation of incredibly well spaced apart models) kill another 1-4 marines outright. (again unless there are special saves) So... I have potentially decimated a combat squad or at least forced a leadership check. And then there are other armies besides meq...

 

QUOTE

well considering they take the slots of oblits and have to fill in the anti tank spot in the chaos army

 

 

I don't understand.. Dreadnoughts are Elite choices. They have completely different roles.

but the points for HQ and troops are frozen . you cant play with less troops or you gimp your chance to win in 2/3 of games and our DPs are one of those good things we have so droping them [or rather droping one , because no matter what we need one HQ and lords/sorc cost the same] is not an option. So the only points left is the support section[and it doesnt matter what slots they come from] if you take 2xdreads it means no oblits [and wierd leftover points].

 

 

You do realise that Fire Frenzy only affects Chaos Dreadnoughts...

idaho was asking if anyone lost a game because of frenzy ? So I ask him , if he would use a dread with chaos rules in a sm army , when he has options like MM attack bikes[lets say stand in for our oblits as anti tank goes] .

 

Sure the jeske can sound a bit mean and ruthless but he is a tourney player and IS always right on these matters.

as much as I may like this , it is crap . no one is right because of or just because of expiriance . Am realy waiting for someone to show me the tactics , the lists to make dreads or possessed work . Yes I give example why they dont work , but the arguements given by other side [that uses/likes dreads/possessed/spawn etc] are wierd to me . " like the models "

"they are chaotic , so chaos should use them" or "they dont realy hurt you that much [when they double the points and units you have to spend on anti tank while simply the points are not there to begin with] " etc etc.

Even in chaozylla it is better to stack two more[well one and a half] zerker units in rhinos to get more scoring units and better hth support for the list then take dreads.

When the Dreadnought actually suffers from it's rage actually matters. If it's turn 3 onwards there is a good chance the nearest unit will be the enemy. This is on the assumption you play the Dread like a Chaos Dread and not a loyalist Dread (hanging back when it should be advancing on the enemy).

idaho the shoting at your own units isnt the bigest weakness of the dread , there are ways to go around it if someone would realy realy want dreads [like only ccw weapons or runing one alongside of a LR ...of course what a dread does in a LR rush build and where the points come for him are beyond me] . the real problem is that it doesnt do what it is ment to do . It does not anti tank , nor can it counter horde .specialy if it stays at the back of army then our units are always closest . also as we are a short range and not a gunline or range list like sm our rhinos are always moving closer to the enemy army . so even if the dread does move , doesnt go crazy etc. our rhinos moved 12" and are the closest targets . one could say that the way to deal with it is refused flank , but . A our army isnt fast enough for that . B our dreads are not resilient enough to take on a larger part of enemy army C if our opponent focus fire on the rhino part of our army there is a big chance that the possessed wont be able to help[slow , can go crazy ] . D there is a chance that playing with rifle dreads one will destroy the other.

 

 

 

Chaos has one way of wining in 5th ed . get in to short range and shot/assault while support units and troops pop transports where our superior[well they were for a long time ] troops have the uper hand against other armies troops . the dread does not help with anti tank , it does not help with the killing of opponent troops part . And from time to time it can shot at your own guys .

 

 

By RAW I can't see any other way to play them. You should use one (two are better!)

by RAW dreads dont work at all because when codex > rule book , the game crashes , because it asks you to check something not defined in 5th ed rule book . how to you shot at the closest target , when A no one knows what visible means in the rules B you have to check visible before shoting , but because codex > brb by doing so you would break a core rule of 5th ed [true los].

[nurglez]

I love dread's, back in 3.5 i would always include 2 dual close combat wep dreads, and never, ever regretted it.

 

But i wont use them in my current army, because i don't have the points spare, and if i did, i would go for some termicide squads, or oblitorators.

 

If they made the rules for them as they used to be, in 3.5, then i would use them again, shooting at the nearest enemy squad and if no enemy in range then your own guys, is alot better then just shooting the closest target, outfit a dread with big guns and pray for a fire frenzy :P

 

I for one agree that they shoot the closest target too, though i do believe discussing that point is moot because the rulebook doesn't mention los except for shooting.

 

Bring back semi reliable dreads!

[Seahawk]

More often than not I win games because of dreadnoughts, even including their rare bouts of insanity. I never get shot at by him because I know how to use the darn thing in the first place, and he proves his uses time and again.

 

well considering they take the slots of oblits

No they don't. Dreadnoughts are Elites; obliterators are HS. I get more plasma cannons by taking dreadnoughts.

 

It does not anti tank , nor can it counter horde

You're right, it doesn't do anything particularly well. However, that's the exact reason I like it, as being a generalist unit it can fill roles other units can't. On the other hand, it does counter horde quite well. Get it into combat with 30 gaunts, guardsmen, or kroot and it'll hold them up indefinitely, leaving you free to tackle the rest.

[the jeske]

No they don't. Dreadnoughts are Elites; obliterators are HS. I get more plasma cannons by taking dreadnoughts.

ok am writing this the third or fourth time . So if you are not droping oblits[support unit] to take dreads [support unit] , then what do you drop ? troops or HQ ? because there is no going around it . Maybe am wording this wrong , but dreads do come from the same points oblits are bough it doesnt matter if your anti tank/support is a FA MM attack bike squadron or a drop dread or oblits etc they are all anti tank , they are all bough after HQ and troops needed are bough , that is why I say they come from the same slots .

 

On the other hand, it does counter horde quite well

how does it counter IG ? because right now this is the only viable horde army right now . nids dont realy work and orks stoped playing horde builds when codex IG came out .

 

However, that's the exact reason I like it, as being a generalist unit it can fill roles other units can't.

IF you dont know if it will work or wont work , then it cant fill any roll . You always have to keep a unit near or at least with LoS to the dreads target to "help" in case the dread shots the rhino and not the take or goes crazy and doesnt shot at all . And considering that with +4 cover everywhere there is no such thing as shoting with one weapon to counter tank/transports [minimum of 2 , 3 to be sure] it would mean you have to [and we took dreads so no oblits to help] half our army helping to counter just one target , just in case the dread goes crazy. And all of this is on top of our dreads being av12 and having to cope with the same problems all other our tanks have , being stuned/shaken.

[CuznP]

Hey everyone who play's Dreads and likes them.. I just realised that we must all be incredibly wrong or incredibly stupid because a certain person knows all things there are to know about all of the armies and how everyone plays them all over the world. Furthermore he is the end all and be all of Chaos players and he says that Dreadnoughts are bad. So, I for one am now convinced that Dreads are horrible! And you should be too.

 

In fact I think we should all ask this person what list we should play so that we can all play the same super best Chaos army that is out there all the time!

[Hellios]

Hey everyone who play's Dreads and likes them.. I just realised that we must all be incredibly wrong or incredibly stupid because a certain person knows all things there are to know about all of the armies and how everyone plays them all over the world. Furthermore he is the end all and be all of Chaos players and he says that Dreadnoughts are bad. So, I for one am now convinced that Dreads are horrible! And you should be too.

 

In fact I think we should all ask this person what list we should play so that we can all play the same super best Chaos army that is out there all the time!

 

 

Jeske plays tourneys and from what I understand travels to other countries to play in them and he plays not just to win games but also win tourneys as a whole if he can. That is why he plays and that is the meta game he plays in and in his mind Dreadnoughts have no place in those lists because he can get other units to do what he needs to do for less than the dread or they do it better than the dread and are more reliable as well **BONUS**. It is from this point of view he gives his answers... he isn't saying you can't play friendly games with them or even competitively in an area where people take softer or more themed lists rather than playing just to win. But in his experience they are no good for how he plays the game.

[Seahawk]

So if you are not droping oblits[support unit] to take dreads [support unit] , then what do you drop ? troops or HQ ? because there is no going around it . Maybe am wording this wrong , but dreads do come from the same points oblits are bough it doesnt matter if your anti tank/support is a FA MM attack bike squadron or a drop dread or oblits etc they are all anti tank , they are all bough after HQ and troops needed are bough , that is why I say they come from the same slots .

I don't drop anything? I take both and do just fine, as that's what I have the models for. They don't take from each other, just the general pool of points allotment. Lately I've been dropping the Obliterators because they are ineffective for my lists and opponents, but otherwise...

 

how does it counter IG ? because right now this is the only viable horde army right now . nids dont realy work and orks stoped playing horde builds when codex IG came out .

Like I said, you get it into combat with the horde and they're stuck forever. You don't have to actually kill something with the dread to make it effective. It does fine against Tyranids (we have 4 players here) whether holding up and smashing the little 'uns or keeping Tyrants at bay. S5 +2D6 isn't that effective vs walkers.

 

IF you dont know if it will work or wont work , then it cant fill any roll . You always have to keep a unit near or at least with LoS to the dreads target to "help" in case the dread shots the rhino and not the take or goes crazy and doesnt shot at all . And considering that with +4 cover everywhere there is no such thing as shoting with one weapon to counter tank/transports [minimum of 2 , 3 to be sure] it would mean you have to [and we took dreads so no oblits to help] half our army helping to counter just one target , just in case the dread goes crazy. And all of this is on top of our dreads being av12 and having to cope with the same problems all other our tanks have , being stuned/shaken.

I'm not sure what you're even saying here...I know it will work, as it always does. I don't have to keep a unit near the dreadnought, as that's just plain stupid. I want the enemy's units closer to me, not my own. Why would I ever want to shoot my own unit when I can shoot theirs?

 

In fact I think we should all ask this person what list we should play so that we can all play the same super best Chaos army that is out there all the time!

;)

 

Different environments, different tactics, that's all it is.

[Mr. Sandbot]

Hey everyone who play's Dreads and likes them.. I just realised that we must all be incredibly wrong or incredibly stupid because a certain person knows all things there are to know about all of the armies and how everyone plays them all over the world. Furthermore he is the end all and be all of Chaos players and he says that Dreadnoughts are bad. So, I for one am now convinced that Dreads are horrible! And you should be too.

 

In fact I think we should all ask this person what list we should play so that we can all play the same super best Chaos army that is out there all the time!

 

No need to resort to insults CuznP. Jeske is only pointing out his opinions on the subject matter and if you can't refute it them in a mature manner then find a better argument than sarcasm. Better yet, just say you can't find an argument and continue to disagree until you do.

If you really love dreads then no one is stopping you from fielding them at your will. To be fair, I get bored and use a dread here and there to keep things interesting, but when it comes to theoretically maximizing the efficiency of your army, Dreads really don't have a place just because of how inconsistent they are.

 

Nonetheless, there are still reasons to field dreads. I mean, Helios and I are Thousand Son players. There was a thread a while back where Jeske pretty much said the Tsons are as uncompetitive as it gets. Doesn't stop me and him from playing them and still treating Jeske's opinion with respect. IMO, its the same thing with dreads. Play your game how you want to.

[Hellios]

I don't drop anything? I take both and do just fine, as that's what I have the models for. They don't take from each other, just the general pool of points allotment. Lately I've been dropping the Obliterators because they are ineffective for my lists and opponents, but otherwise...

 

Jeskes point is that with the points you "waste" on the dreadnought you effectively drop something of more value. Because you took the dread you couldn't take more or better DPs, troops or Oblits and so on and because a dread most closely fills the roll of oblits that is what he compares them with...