Hammer Units

[Isryion]

Anyone have any experience using HG? I normally run a 6 man DC squad w/power weapon and fist in a razorback for 215. I'm considering expanding it by a couple of models as it works pretty well, especially for the cost.

 

I'm also considering HG w/jump packs, 2 PF, 2 PW (one champ), and possibly a banner. That runs about 240 (+ something depending on the banner). Are they worth it? Thoughts between these two units or how to equip the HG to make them effective (and I won't be going with the all plasma, etc. route). The upside of these guys seems to be control but with basically the same stats -WS as DC. They'll hit a bit harder as well, not to mention the built in priest. Part of the appeal of that unit is that I've got some conversion ideas and a paint scheme plan as they will be a bodyguard for Astorath.

 

The problem is that I probably won't fit both in my army regularly, so I want to make sure I build them effectively.

 

I've read that JamesI didn't get the Honor Guard to work well, but I'm interested to hear a bit more. Also, another downside is that I wouldn't be able to take my DC dread, though I'd probably swap it out for a Furioso.

[wookielips]

always put a chappie/reclusiarch with your DC, you will not ever go back.

 

to be honest, both DC and Vets are too pricey with packs unless you are HI'ing the VV's.

[Isryion]

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

Yeah but HG (VV are down the road a bit) with the packs come out almost exactly the same as giving them a transport, but I do see your point. I won't ever give the DC packs as that is significantly more expensive.

[wookielips]

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

Yeah but HG (VV are down the road a bit) with the packs come out almost exactly the same as giving them a transport, but I do see your point. I won't ever give the DC packs as that is significantly more expensive.

 

ive seen/heard about lemartes and 5 dc with JP out of a SR causing havoc, but its so pricey i cannot see fielding it and being successful.

[SamaNagol]

HG are a better choice than VV in small games, because of the *free* Sanguinary Novitiate who cannot be targeted, and they can be armed almost identically. The only drawback is the restriction on the size, and the lack of Heroic Intervention..... should you for some bizarre reason want to try and use it.

 

HG can also carry a wonderful selection of weaponry, most importantly the Special ranged weapons like Melta and Plas which a Vanguard squad can only take pistol versions of.

[River Black]

Hemmer Units

Squads of guys altering pants?

 

Just kidding. I Have been having some fun with a 5 man DC, PW x 2and IP x 2 joined by a Reclusiarch with an IP in a TLAC RB. When I run the HG I also mount them in a RB with a special Char. The two time I have tried to fly them across the board they got nuked before they even hit combat.

 

I havent really played with the VGV that much because I only have five of them at the moment. The one time I did play them I ran them with the J packs and did a HI via Locator Beacon. They had PW x 3. I was also fortunate enough to have the VGV get the red thirst so a near by priest wasnt needed. Anyway they killed 6 / 10 marines in a tactical squad the turn they came in. I won combat in my opponents turn and the ate a scout squad in the turn after. I would probably like to get another two or three bodies in there just to keep the numbers up.

[Aramis_the_Red]

I have to say, I love HG, but they are not a hammer unit, they're more of scalpel. You drop them in to take out important targets. Of course, I run them shooty(4 meltas and 2 fists, sometimes 4 plasma no fist) in a drop pod.

[SamaNagol]

If it is a straight up Hammer discussion, then there's only 2 contenders:

 

Assault Terminators and Death Company. Both need transports to be effective. Both benefit from attaching an HQ to them. One unlocks a sexy dreadnought and is a troops choice. The other is far more controllable and survivable.

[toaae]

I'm running HG with jump packs, 2 storm shields, and 2 lightning claws. For a league I'll be playing in, I plan on giving that unit the chapter banner, and attaching a Librarian with shield and rage, and Dante. Thats a hammer unit. 20 re-rolling hits, strength 5 power weapon attacks on the charge.

 

Still, I'm really only going with that unit because I'm really proud of my Dante paintjob. A chaplain-led DC is a true hammer unit.

[Jarakin]

I currently have 2 lists for 1500 pts, not played any games as of yet, but I think the core and principles of the armies are sound. One list has DC with attached Reclusiarch in a Heavy Flamer Razorback (has 3 sets of other scoring units too) - Nice and killy! The other list has Dante, SG and HG and 2 other scoring units (1 combat squadded), I actually really like both lists as I think I've got a strong core of troops with a good balance of scoring units and killyness, one of my opponents is an SW player and runs several rune priests, so I have a Libby in my DC list and I think that'd be my preferred choice against him. Although I may also try another HG list with a Libby/Reclusiarch in place of Dante and replace the SG with a 10man RAS for scoring unit. I can't wait to test these lists out! Check the thread in my sig for my lists if you're interested. :rolleyes:

[Brother Mojonir]

Hemmer Units

Squads of guys altering pants?

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA nice one man ;)

 

I currently run two units for this job, each in TLHF RBs accompanying double melta 10 man AS rhinos. I run my HG with a blood champ, 2 stormshields (one marine BP & SS another CS & SS) and a thunder hammer, they have a stock standard librarian with them, I have had solid results. My other squad are VV accompanied by corbulo with a very similar load out to the HG. Obviously my list is mech so your JP mileage may vary.

[Isryion]

Hehe, totally missed the spelling. Changed that now

 

Thanks for the comments. Good points about the hammer vs. scalpel (and deathstar for that matter), Aramis. I guess what I was getting at is a unit that is hard-hitting unit between my DC and HG in that price range (250-270). It does concern me that the HG are so small and can't be added to, but they would likely be joined by a character as well.

 

@ Sama, I understand that Assault Terminators are solid, but they also require a Land Raider and I look at them as in a different cost category.

[JamesI]

My experience is Honor Guards are too small to be a hammer. They are great as a meltagun squad, or a plasma gun squad, but as a combat monster too small.

 

Hammer units can be DC, Vanguard, or Assault Terminators. Only Assault Terminators can do it with really low numbers, others need more guys to be hammers.

[lorider2]

I also see HG as a more balanced shooty unit, not a hammer.

[Jarakin]

I guess it really depends on your usage... everything comes as a balance, I'm about to start playing 1500 point games, and there's no way I could afford to put in a 10 man DC or 10 man Vanguard without sacrificing scoring units which are the core of my army lists.

 

In my lists (see link in sig) I have one 5 man unit of DC in a Razorback, then in another list I have a 5 man unit of HG in a Razorback, so I compared the two:

 

230 points for 5 DC with 5 PW's in a razorback, gives 20x WS5 S5 I5 PW attacks.

 

265 points for 5 HG with Emperor's Champion and 3 PWs (Novitiate can't take), gives 15x WS4 S5 I5 PW attacks, 5x WS5 S5 I5 PW attacks and 5x S5 I5 CCW attacks.

 

Both units essentially have a hidden priest, but the HG's one can't chose wargear and the unit comes out slightly more expensive (due to the banner and champion)...

 

Not sure what to take from this, I think both units are pretty killy in assault, perhaps almost equally so in this situation (DC have higher chance to hit, HG have 5 more rolls in general)?... I don't really have a strong enough grasp of the rules to mathhammer it out yet as I'm still a noob, but maybe someone can assist? :D

[Isryion]

I guess it really depends on your usage... everything comes as a balance, I'm about to start playing 1500 point games, and there's no way I could afford to put in a 10 man DC or 10 man Vanguard without sacrificing scoring units which are the core of my army lists.

 

In my lists (see link in sig) I have one 5 man unit of DC in a Razorback, then in another list I have a 5 man unit of HG in a Razorback, so I compared the two:

 

230 points for 5 DC with 5 PW's in a razorback, gives 20x WS5 S5 I5 PW attacks.

 

265 points for 5 HG with Emperor's Champion and 3 PWs (Novitiate can't take), gives 15x WS4 S5 I5 PW attacks, 5x WS5 S5 I5 PW attacks and 5x S5 I5 CCW attacks.

 

Both units essentially have a hidden priest, but the HG's one can't chose wargear and the unit comes out slightly more expensive (due to the banner and champion)...

 

Not sure what to take from this, I think both units are pretty killy in assault, perhaps almost equally so in this situation (DC have higher chance to hit, HG have 5 more rolls in general)?... I don't really have a strong enough grasp of the rules to mathhammer it out yet as I'm still a noob, but maybe someone can assist? -_-

 

It's an interesting comparison, but things get a bit more complex when you add jump pack HG vs. RAZ DC. The Honor Guard are much more maneuverable overall (and with DS choices) but end up being around 270 points and more also more exposed. The other upside of the HG is that the initiate doesn't just benefit his unit. The HG is honestly a great deal to start. Basically starting cost is 65 points for 4 veterans. Of course, it does come with limitations. Otherwise this would be an easy choice.

 

As for other points of discussion, I am getting the impression that HG are essentially best used like drop podded sternguard. I'm going to have to think about this some more...

[Slim Pickens]

My experience is Honor Guards are too small to be a hammer. They are great as a meltagun squad, or a plasma gun squad, but as a combat monster too small.

 

Hammer units can be DC, Vanguard, or Assault Terminators. Only Assault Terminators can do it with really low numbers, others need more guys to be hammers.

 

 

Precisely.

 

I put Sanguinary Guard in the Honor Guard category in this regard as well. Too small to be a true hammer. Just cant hit hard enough or soak enough punishment to do the job intended for them IMO.

 

With Dante they are better since they score, and can DS unerringly and really take advantage of their shooting if armed with infernus/plasma pistols. Plus then they can hit and run if charged. But without Dante and/or some serious buff characters (priest/chaplain/Lib) they just dont cut it in any way as a hammer unit.

 

For my hammer I choose DC led by Lemartes or a chappy.

[Jarakin]

I guess it really depends on your usage... everything comes as a balance, I'm about to start playing 1500 point games, and there's no way I could afford to put in a 10 man DC or 10 man Vanguard without sacrificing scoring units which are the core of my army lists.

 

In my lists (see link in sig) I have one 5 man unit of DC in a Razorback, then in another list I have a 5 man unit of HG in a Razorback, so I compared the two:

 

230 points for 5 DC with 5 PW's in a razorback, gives 20x WS5 S5 I5 PW attacks.

 

265 points for 5 HG with Emperor's Champion and 3 PWs (Novitiate can't take), gives 15x WS4 S5 I5 PW attacks, 5x WS5 S5 I5 PW attacks and 5x S5 I5 CCW attacks.

 

Both units essentially have a hidden priest, but the HG's one can't chose wargear and the unit comes out slightly more expensive (due to the banner and champion)...

 

Not sure what to take from this, I think both units are pretty killy in assault, perhaps almost equally so in this situation (DC have higher chance to hit, HG have 5 more rolls in general)?... I don't really have a strong enough grasp of the rules to mathhammer it out yet as I'm still a noob, but maybe someone can assist? ^_^

 

It's an interesting comparison, but things get a bit more complex when you add jump pack HG vs. RAZ DC. The Honor Guard are much more maneuverable overall (and with DS choices) but end up being around 270 points and more also more exposed. The other upside of the HG is that the initiate doesn't just benefit his unit. The HG is honestly a great deal to start. Basically starting cost is 65 points for 4 veterans. Of course, it does come with limitations. Otherwise this would be an easy choice.

 

As for other points of discussion, I am getting the impression that HG are essentially best used like drop podded sternguard. I'm going to have to think about this some more...

 

Having thought about it, if the HG had JPs, they could be used in combination with half of a combat squadded Tactical squad in a Heavy Flamer RB (I'll use the other half for objective sitting at the back of a board) where they can follow the RB providing some decent cover, they'll have a good mix of shootyness and assaultyness, are fast, maneuverable and most importantly, scoring. Could even throw in some Plasma on the tac's as they'll be covered by the FnP bubble... Two alternatives and potentially safer ones for the HG, would be to either just give them an RB too and run them together, or they could always co-habit a Rhino, but while I think this would be a good use of points, they'd lose their speed at the start of turn 1 having to board the rhino etc.

 

I'd still like to see some math hammer on the DC vs HG scenario I mentioned above if anyone has a minute!

 

Cheers :P