Shield of Faith, Hoods and Powers oh my

[River Black]

My search didnt turn up anything on this question so sorry if this has been discussed already in length.

 

Can you use an Inquisitors Hood to try and stop a Psychic power and then use shield of faith as a second attempt to shut it down? Also does Shield of Faith work against JotWW if the Sister squad isnt targeted first and is mearly standing in its way after it hits the first unit?

[Judanas]

My search didnt turn up anything on this question so sorry if this has been discussed already in length.

 

Can you use an Inquisitors Hood to try and stop a Psychic power and then use shield of faith as a second attempt to shut it down? Also does Shield of Faith work against JotWW if the Sister squad isnt targeted first and is mearly standing in its way after it hits the first unit?

 

Yes and yes. The Aegis that Grey Knights have will not work with a Psychic hood but the Shield of Faith will. The Shield of Faith will also work with the Aegis if you have the situation where they are both in a unit. (I use a SOB Cannoness in a squad of GK Terminators quite often. Very fun) Heck, you could use the Aegis, Penitents and the Shield of Faith, though that may be overkill...

 

The Jaws of the Wolf Wolf affects everything in the line at once, not one at a time, thus the SOB Shield of faith will negate it for all involved. It may not target them but the ARE in it's area of effect.

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't forget Deamonhunters Unguents or Warding (or the superior Null Rod). ;)

[ValourousHeart]

Yes and yes. The Aegis that Grey Knights have will not work with a Psychic hood but the Shield of Faith will. The Shield of Faith will also work with the Aegis if you have the situation where they are both in a unit. (I use a SOB Cannoness in a squad of GK Terminators quite often. Very fun) Heck, you could use the Aegis, Penitents and the Shield of Faith, though that may be overkill...

 

The Jaws of the Wolf Wolf affects everything in the line at once, not one at a time, thus the SOB Shield of faith will negate it for all involved. It may not target them but the ARE in it's area of effect.

 

 

I don't think Judanas is correct about being able to use both.

But that may be skewed by my LGS view.

 

In my short skim of the codex and faq, I did not find anything that said this couldn't be done.

But that line of thinking usually causes trouble.

 

I think it is more advisable to follow the established precedent which gives only one opportunity to negate a psychic power.

If Shield of Faith had been meant to be the only exception to that precedent, GW most likely would have said something referring to it by now.

 

He is correct about the area of effect.

Any unit within the area of effect that has a means of stopping the power is eligible to try... you just need to pick the best option.

[ArmouredWing]

Yes and yes... I use a SOB Cannoness in a squad of GK Terminators quite often. Very fun) Heck, you could use the Aegis, Penitents and the Shield of Faith, though that may be overkill...

Not correct if my recall serves me right. SoF is a part of the Adeptus Sororitas special rule and I believe it states that it is only used by faithful units/models. With that being the case I'm pretty sure that the special rule is lost when a faithful character joins a non-faithful unit or a faithful unit is joined by a non-faithful character.

[River Black]

Not correct if my recall serves me right. SoF is a part of the Adeptus Sororitas special rule and I believe it states that it is only used by faithful units/models. With that being the case I'm pretty sure that the special rule is lost when a faithful character joins a non-faithful unit or a faithful unit is joined by a non-faithful character.

 

The Inquisitor with the hood wont be attached to the squad. The hood has table wide coverage and can nullify a power while its being cast. I think shield of faith kicks in once the sister squad is targeted.

[Inquisitor Fox]

That's correct, the hood happens first, and there is only one hood attempt per psychic power. This is what is causing confusion I believe. If you have multiple Inquisitors or characters like GK Characters, only one of them can use their psychic hood per power casting (naturally the one with the highest Ld). The Shield of Faith special rule would only come into play if the psychic power is cast at all, and only if the power is thereby targeting a Sororitas unit in it's area of effect.

 

This is the benefit of the psychic hood, it offers a table wide blanket protection that doesn't take away from or interfere with the Sororitas special rule, meaning our armies are doubly hard to affect with psychic abilities. Also, there are some powers such as "Warptime" that could not be nullified by the "Shield of Faith", so the psychic hood is your only protection against those. Likewise, some things such as an Eldar Warlock using "Destructor" cannot be targeted by a psychic hood, but are vulnerable to the "Shield of Faith."

 

It's allowable and perfectly legal in all ways. ;)

[Judanas]

Yes and yes... I use a SOB Cannoness in a squad of GK Terminators quite often. Very fun) Heck, you could use the Aegis, Penitents and the Shield of Faith, though that may be overkill...

Not correct if my recall serves me right. SoF is a part of the Adeptus Sororitas special rule and I believe it states that it is only used by faithful units/models. With that being the case I'm pretty sure that the special rule is lost when a faithful character joins a non-faithful unit or a faithful unit is joined by a non-faithful character.

 

Nope, seperate rule. Same page but just above acts of faith. Acts of faith cannot be used if the squad is not faithful but sheild of faith continues.

 

Rules as written you can use Shield of Faith + Aegis/Hood but it's best to check with your opponent, I believe it was designed to work with the hood but it would be an unusual occurance.

[Gentlemanloser]

The problem here is whether an IC loses thier special rules when they join a squad that doesn't have them.

 

Like if you attached a GKGM to a squad of IST, does that squad now have Aegis and Shrouding?

 

As far as I'm aware, the IC loses these, as they are not '*', while a squad would keep them. So if you added an Inquisitor to a PAGK squad, that squad would still retian Shoruding and Aegis.

 

As said, there's no way to combine both SoF and Aegis.

 

You could combine SoF/Aegis with UoW, and use a PH before hand. But unfortunately, not SoF and Aegis together.

[Judanas]

The problem here is whether an IC loses thier special rules when they join a squad that doesn't have them.

 

Like if you attached a GKGM to a squad of IST, does that squad now have Aegis and Shrouding?

 

As far as I'm aware, the IC loses these, as they are not '*', while a squad would keep them. So if you added an Inquisitor to a PAGK squad, that squad would still retian Shoruding and Aegis.

 

As said, there's no way to combine both SoF and Aegis.

 

You could combine SoF/Aegis with UoW, and use a PH before hand. But unfortunately, not SoF and Aegis together.

 

...here it gets iffy. It only says 'In some cases though, the independent character or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit.' It also says how unless otherwise noted, sqauds and independent characters do not confer their rules on each other. I does not however say whether shrouding is lost if some people in the squad do not have it. It could be argued either way.

 

I'd say shrouding does not affect the squad unless half the squad has it, like being in cover, but that's a quick fix. The Shield of faith however does work due to things affecting the squad having the cannoness in it's 'area' of effect. However it could be argued the other way.

 

Unrelated but I just learnt it...independent characters have move through cover and skilled riders. Didn't know that one.

[Gentlemanloser]

Howver you rule Shrouding and the Aegis suit, SoF would have to work the same way.

 

Either an IC imparts them on whatever unit they join (go go Shrouded Dev Squads), or the IC loses them if they join a unit without the special rule.

[calypso2ts]

Shrouding is lost if a non GK IC joins a squad, shrouding specifically stated a 'unit of grey knights,' when you add in a Canoness it ceases to be a unit of grey knights.

 

SoF and Hoods do stack and I believe SoF works if the IC is attached to a squad because the rule states 'if a unit with the AS rule is caught in its area of effect' (paraphrased) not 'an AS unit' like Shrouding.

[ArmouredWing]

This is an interesting one that I hadn't really considered fully what the implications could be and as a result I've had to re-read the AS & SoF rules to see what I'd missed.

 

Looking at the rules I'd now agree that you could use this save for a unit that includes non-AS characters but you may still fall foul of the statement in the rulebook section covering IC's that also states that special abilities from one unit/character can't be confered onto another joining unit/character. However as codex trumps rulebook I'd say it's a fair method to confer an additional save onto non-AS units... maybe even something that could be abused by IG if they added a unit of sisters to a particularly vulnerable unit.

 

Looking a bit further into this though, could it be used to protect transport vehicles that are loaded up with sisters?

[Gentlemanloser]

Shrouding is lost if a non GK IC joins a squad, shrouding specifically stated a 'unit of grey knights,' when you add in a Canoness it ceases to be a unit of grey knights.

 

Does it?

 

That's like saying a Unit of Dameons stops being Dameons when you add a Chaos Marine IC to them.

 

It's a sticky situation.

 

Usually, the Unit keeps it's rules, and the IC loses thiers.

[calypso2ts]

Special rules do not transfer as you stated, but that does not mean the IC will lose all the rules specific to them. A model that is immune to Force Weapons remains immune to force weapons, in spite of being with a platoon of guardsmen. The wording on SoF simply states an AS unit caught in its area of effect which enables the 5+ to nullify it.

 

Also, Codex does not trump rulebook. Specific rules hold precedence over general rules. Typically that is seen in codex rules overriding BRB ones, but it is not always the case.

 

If you attach a Chaos Lord to a unit of Daemons, it is no longer a unit of Daemons, instead it is Daemons with a CSM. Luckily, most rules dealing with Daemons state Daemon models so sanctuary type powers still work. In the same way a unit of GK with an IC is no longer simply a unit of GK. The problem is in the wording of the rules (this applies to shrouding too).

[Gentlemanloser]

Actually, chekcing the BRB, I'm wrong. :)

 

The rules that are usually lost by an IC joining a Unit without them, are the same rules that a Unit loses if an IC without them joins.

 

The BRB also specifically states that for USRs listed, if Codexes have different versions, the Codex takes preference.

 

Problem is, we have no way of knowing whether Shrouding, Aeigs or SoF should have an '*' (You lose it), or not.

 

Either way can cause issues.

 

Edit: although, if we want to use the BRB as a guidline, non personal (unlike EW) Special Rules that are not lost have a disclaimer at the bottom, saying something like;

 

"This is conferred to any IC joining the unit/This is conferred to any Unit the IC joins"

 

Like Night vision, Stubborn.

 

By that reasoning, the DH/DW special rules would all be lost in mixed units.

[ArmouredWing]

Also, Codex does not trump rulebook. Specific rules hold precedence over general rules. Typically that is seen in codex rules overriding BRB ones, but it is not always the case.

I've got an email from the recently departed (from GW, not this mortal coil I hasten to add) Andy Hoare where he made the abundantly clear that, quote; "Repeat after me, codex trumps rulebook, codex trumps rulebook..."

 

There may be certain exceptions to the rule but where it doesn't state that it is the case then codex does indeed trump rulebook.

[calypso2ts]

I am not saying the codex does not normally take precedence over the BRB, but it is due to the special principle that specific rules always supersede general rules. That same principle applies within the Codex and the BRB itself.

 

I do not necessarily agree that SoF cannot take effect, the wording is very specific to imply it does not and 'gaining' or 'losing' applies to USR, not to any entry in the codex. Under that argument a Necon Lord joining a squad of non-Necron models would not get to WBB. If the AS model is included in the AOE, then you get SoF.

[Gentlemanloser]

Personal to unit wide rules.

 

Like EW isn't lost, while Fleet is.