Need your thoughts for my next campain armylist!

[norngahl]

Hey there!

 

I`m usually facing Nids, Orks and IG and we often play campains (most times Planetary Realms) and something like that, actually we have no other SM player at our group. We started playing friendly list, but for the next campain we are going to play harder stuff, but no deathstars like 10 men uber nob bikers or something like that. The next campain will be tailored around one 1500 point lists, with 3 variable 250 point upgrades to a 1750 point szize (So you got a 1500 point list as your basic list and than add 250p List 1 on a 1-2 throw, List 2 on 3-4 or List 3 on 5-6). So you keep your basic list and the 3 upgrade lists for the Rest of the campain.

 

Alright, here is my problem. Our IG player plays nearly only infantery, except for the battle tanks, and he is some much in love with plasma that he wants to equip anyone who can get a plasmaweapon with such (except for heavy weapon teams with lascannons and special teams with demolition charges). I can understand this, cause plasma is really great against nids, orks and marines. But as a Marine, I do not have the numbers to soak that much losses like nids or orks could do. To leave a word in here about the other players, ork and nids both field horde armys with just a few really point heavy models. The nid uses Trevigons, Hive Tyrant, zoanthrophes, sometimes a Trygon, large termagant and warrior squads and big genestealer units. The ork likes big boys units and bikes, here and there are some lootas or tanks.

 

I´m one of the "Water"-gamers, having a more reactive playstyle. I like having less /none real armor and more bodies on the field, and I combat squad everything I can (principle of the "wasted firepower" + "target overload"). My basic stock of every list or just as a 1000 point list consists of:

 

Librarian, Tactical Dreadnought Armor, Stormshield, Nullzone, Vortex of Doom

10 Tactical Marines, Powerfist, Combi-Melta, Melta, Multimelta, Drop Pod

10 Tactical Marines, Powerfist, Combi-Melta, Melta, Multimelta, Drop Pod

Attack Bike with Multimelta

Attack Bike with Multimelta

Thunderfire Cannon with Drop Pod

Thunderfire Cannon with Drop Pod

= 1000 points on the dot.

 

I like having 2 Thunderfires, they never let me down and are always the ones who kill most stuff. The fat bunch of Antitank ist because of any heavy Battletanks (which always mean a lot of harm to a small marine, mainly because of the AP3/2/1 plates), bosses and of course MC. Librarian is the best char in my opinion (I refuse to play HQ-SC), as he brings a hood and a great allround flexibility for relativly small points . Attack Bikes can hunt tanks and are great (!) at entertaining little nids and any kind of guardsman. I also enjoy having 4 Drop Pods, which means I can send in my 2x10 Marines on turn one or later (in this case, the Thunderfire Cannons are deployed and their lone pods come in). I can also build terrain with them which slows the enemy or grants my troops cover saves. I always had great sucess with this basic list and do not want to change it. All games played on 1000p brought me an 8:1:0 score. On Upper point levels the scores goes a bit downwards.

 

But where to spend the rest of the 500+ 3x250 points?

 

Personally I like less seen stuff. Scouts in LSS for 1st turn charge, Dreads with plasma cannons, Jump pack models (both, assault marines and vanguard). Considering the fact, that there is kinda low anti-tank out there I guess kicking the drop pods and spend some points on 2 Land Raiders for my tacticals would be the best option, just hiding like a coward hoping that none will scratch the armor until the air becomes cleaner, than walking out the raiders and get the things done. Lone LSS will get shot quick with no real other target for antitanks (and from that much plasmaweapons), so will be the dreadnoughts. Jump Pack Modells will easily get killed through plasma weapons if the IG has no other targets that threats them on close range they need to get rid of, and you don´t really want to get into CC with orks or nids for sure, unless you still have 10 men and 2 flamers. But I hate expensive Units as Marines are already expensive.. I don´t like to spend more than 150 points on a single model or 250 points for troop+vehicle combination (excluding attached HQs).

 

As well, the principle of hiding in Raiders will get very boring, exspecially in a campain, AND I like having bodies ;)

 

So what to do? Any help possible? ;)

 

 

greetings

[Ookami_81]

I would invest in a third MM attack bike and put them together, to add anti-heavy tank firepower for your horde 'n tanks IG mate.

Then I would invest in some Typhoon landspeeders to deal with hordes and transports.

Don't take vanguards, they're soooo nice looking but they are not hard stuff, just funny things to try or magnifiscent models to paint and keep out of harm.

If you want other fast movers, take a big mob of bikers, excellent at kiting the enemy in the water style. I think you need them, because once the drop pods landed, your army is fairly static IMHO, except your two attack bikes...

[Justicar Valius]

for either part of the 500 (so you always have that) or as almost all of the 250

 

Landspeeder squadron: 2 typhoons, 1 mono heavy bolter. You know it makes sense. Move 12" to get side shots at tanks or move 12" into a good position for fireing frag missiles and the heavy bolters.

 

They are a great unit.

[Danteus]

I'd definatly second adding a sqaud of bikes to your force, they can be game winners on thier own and can ofcorse combat sqaud if needed.

Also your army lacks any real cc which can make those games against guard a lot easier.

 

It may be worth considering a captain on a bike. Its quite mainstream but for very good reason, it'll allow you to make bikes scoring and when tooled with its relic blade only costs 165. Dont expect him to go toe to toe with any nid beasties but target the weaker units and hes all but invincible.

 

Just something to think about.

[Fatuous]

that is an interesting list, the pods on the cannon confuse me a bit tho. I'm not really sure why they are there, except to give yourself more options for the poding tac squads.

 

Guard can be very tough as they can fill out a lot of squads with plasma guns. But they are expensive for a guard army (1 plasma gun = 3 gaurdsmen) so it should thin ou their numbers a bit, and the poor saves mean they should be loosing models to gets hot rolls. unless they are using pace'd vets or CCS (company command squads).

 

I'd consider adding in some hammerators. And using them as mobile cover saves, just keep a squad behind them (not hard to do with the size of a terminator). Then they will ahve to choice between dropping the plates on the 3++ termies, or the 4+ cover save to the guys behind. That could work.

 

Your choice of combat squading every thing, every game is likely to be effecting your felxibility (the main beneft of it). IMO it is not some thing to use every game, and agasint orks especially, having more guys can really tip the tide your way in assualt.

 

You have an aweful lot of (and paying points for in some cases) of melta weaponry.

 

this is useful, but that is an extra 15 points per tac squad, when you already have the attack bikes capable of dealing with heavy armour.

 

The multi meltas, they are free, so no reason not to go with them (I prefer ML, as can be multi purpose) but adding a melta gun and a combi metla to each squad is over kill IMO and is possibly hindering your ability to take out hordes (your main opponents from what I can gather). Flamers are free, and so versatile, I would strongly consider swopping out the melta and combi melta in 1 squad at least, and replace with free flamer, and a combi flamer. This will free up enough points to add melta bombs if you still want each squad able to tackle AV14, altho the power fist really should be sufficent.

 

To up your numbers, I'd deffo say at least 1 more troop choice other than a 5 man scout squad in LSS. Not saying don't take a LSS, they are ace, but they can be a bit suicidal, so I would not count on them to up the troop choices you have, and I'd want another scoring unit in 1.5k.

 

A 10 man scout squad with a mix of CC/BP and shot guns can be pretty good, add in a combi flamer and maybe a fist on the sarge, and that will add to the anti horde portion of your list.

 

Then I'd add either some terminators (see above) or stern guard. Stern guard = more boots on the ground. never a bad thing (I'd say something about pedro here, but as it isnt appropriate, will resist). the different ammo can be very useful, especially against guardsmen in cover, or in carapace armour. then top up with combi weapons (I'd split between melta and flamer myself) with as many as you feel are needed, then prob swop them in to the pods used by the cannon.

[norngahl]

Hi there,

 

thanks for the the comments.

 

I can see, you seem to have the same problem like me- don´t know what to take. If I sum your post up, there are these options:

 

- Typhoons

- Bikes with Captain

- Hammerterminators (maybe with raider)

- Sternguard

 

I expected something like that ;) Actually, I have thought about that over and over again.

 

The Typhoons are great because of their flexibility. With upgraded Armor they can finally ignore most shots, have 2 Launchers which give me decent antitank OR decent anthorde. But beeing the ONLY armored vehicle (I don´t count the Thunderfire cannons as they are kinda more a 1LP 3+ coversave model) they will be dead to fast to halfway earn their points back in my army, due to missing targets like LR that can soak that antitank. They also need the first round, because if I deploy them and don´t get the first round, they will be gone without doing anything. And AV11 is a joke for lascannons, even for plasma.. :/ I guess they rather need an mech army to work.

 

The Bikes are nice, cause with T5 you can easily ignore small weapon arms, they are fast, with captain they are scoring and have a decent punch, they can pack special weapons and likely get the assault. I could upgrade them to a Captain-bodyguard, so they would get FNP and the option to grab other stuff as well. If I go with the command squad I´d have to pay a lot of points for a small unit. Sure, they are tough, but could they resist the plasma storm? The only option would be boosting to get 3++, but I´m likely going to loose 2-3. And then the squad has lost much of his power. The plasma is the only thing that really worries me about not taking such a unit. If so, should I take the command squad for more punch or the less effektive vanillas to get another scoring unit? How to equip them efficient? I´d go for a fist and 2 plasma guns I´d say, but that´s just me. I don´t field bikes usually, even through I own some (was my DA Doublewing time, eh).

 

The Hammerterminators are the obvious choice. Usually on the ride with a LR they won´t fail their task. I´ve got nice TH/SS termies and like the models a lot, but they are kinda.. nobrainers If everything else wouldn´t be good or fieldable I´d take them, but I rather have more bodies than a "if they live you win, if not you loose" unit.

 

Sternguard are another interesting unit. They´d fit in my more or less footslogging armylist and due to special weapons they could perform in any situation. With combimeltas they rock off tanks and MCs, with their special rounds they can put around 14 hits wounding on 2+ on a target in the open meaning likely 11-12 dead horde models, they can even shoot guard out of cover and can easily shoot this damned company command squads. But they cost twice a normal marine with the same defensive and are, lets face it, a nobrainer as well.

 

From all of these options you gave me I think Hammerterminators with LR or SG are the best options. But they are the easiest options and they are fielded by so much people I´d be kinda ashamed if I needed to beat an enemy with GW´s beloved nobrainers. Using units that are a bit more difficult to play suits me, so I like the idea of bikesquads most at the moment. But how to field them? I could take 2x7 bikes with fist and 2x plasmaguns or a captain with a biiiig unit with stuff and attack bike or a captain with shiny command squad on bike.. Wouldn´t know what to take best. Or maybe should I take something completly different? I have a love for jump pack models, maybe 2x 10 assault marines with double flamer and a powerweapon? They would add a lot of antihorde and speed to my lists and they would fit to the horde character of my army.

 

Don´t know. Tell me.

 

@fatuous

The MM on the tacticals can´t fire when they come out, so M and CM make sure 1 melta shot hits the targe (maybe 2), melta will at least shake the vehicle to make sure it can´t fire it´s AP3 or better high strengh plate and kill the DP cargo, and as they can instand kill nob bikers or nid warriors they usually made their points back twice. They always did well so I will keep them. Multimelta is for free, and as range isn´t important because of beeing so close, they are better than the ML in my opinion. But nowadays (or just for this enemies) I´m not sure of the attack bikes. Most times the CM and M toasted the tank, so they mainly annoy smaller squads and tie them up. I might find something better for 100 points or 135 if I kick a Drop Pod from a Thunderfire Cannon (and yes, tactical option is the way because I field 1 DP more than necessary :)) but don´t really know what.. Tanks usually don´t work for me and AV13 and less dies fast against lascannons or invading symbionts.. Even if just shaken, 135 points sit still doing nothing.. Better ideas?

 

 

greetings

[Fatuous]

I'd add another troup choice for a 1.5k list, and as the Tac squads and melta are working for you, maybe another tac squad. Or add in some scouts if you want somethinga bit different, maybe backed up by some scout bikes. Increase scoring units, more bodies, and very mobile/flexible.

[Ookami_81]

TH/SS assault TDA are just no fun: the answer to everything it seems they are !

 

That's why I prefer not having them: less chances to win, but a lot more fun ! If I were you I would take other troops, like Fatuous said, and I reaaly think you need fast mobile firepower. Fast mobile firepower = bikes ! B)

[Deimos]

If you take a Captain on bike, consider a Commandsquad on bikes with plasma in addition to a scoring bike squad, as stated above. They are kinda pricey, but the ability to lay down a hailstorm of plasma will soften any heavy infantry or light/medium armour. They get T5 and FNP to help with mass small-arms fire and provide a great counter unit that can re-deploy fast.

 

You seem to have enough melta to take care of any heavy armour, so focus more on taking care of heavy infantry and large infantry units, maybe a 8-man Devastator squad with heavy bolters or missile launchers?

[norngahl]

So maybe something like

 

Captain

+ Relic Blade

+ Arctifer Armor

+ Stormshield

+ Bike

195

 

Command Squad

+ Bikes

+ 4x Plasmagun

+ 2 Powerweapons

+ Apothecarius

295

 

Bikes

+ 8 Bikes

+ 1 Attack Bike with Multimelta

+ 2 Plasmaguns

+ Powerfist

320

 

=810 (= 760, just adding one lone Attack Bike from the 1000p list to the troop-bikes instead of running it alone)

 

Sorry, not that much experience with bikes.

 

 

greetings

[Ookami_81]

Bikes army is a shooting oriented air style army with vanilla marines. You should take a look at the air army topic in the tactica astartes subsubforum.

You use a CC captain and a command squad either strong on shooting (usually anti Teq or AT), or strong on CC, using energy weapons and PFist, or a command squad of death that can be both. My own config:

- Banner + Melta Gun + Storm Shield + Lightning Claws

- Apothecarius

- Champion

- MG + SS + LC

- MG + SS + Thunder Hammer

It's a bit of a point sink, but also a bit of a Death Star unit. I modeled lances for meltaguns + lightning claws, and put my own kite shaped storm shields on the front of the bike, just under the guns + light. They are the "knights templar heavy cavalry" of my army (2500 pts).

 

In your case however, you can't buy such a unit at your point rate, so you've got to choose between shooting or CC. Advice: no powerweapons: same price as LC, you lose the reroll, and you don't have +1A with plasma rifles. So either you take LC, or nothing to save points and make the unit a dedicated TEq killer in shooting.

Another point: you don't want your captain to make invuln. rolls. You have a unit that can take SS. If you want one or two, choose the guy(s) you love the less, and give it to him(them). You've got nice meat shields to cover your captain, and take lascan shots in his holy place.

[Hackbar]

I can't say I have much experience against Guard, but I've played a number of games against a Tau player who spams vast amounts of plasma. What has worked for me has been the good old codex astartes half-company:

 

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino or Drop Pod

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino or Drop Pod

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino or Drop Pod

10 Devastator Marines in Rhino or Drop Pod

10 Assault Marines with Jump Packs or in Rhino or Drop Pod

 

add HQ and support to taste.

 

I don't think I've lost a game with that kind of list, though I have had some draws. (and I honestly don't play that often or competitively) There are enough power-armored bodies that it will take some serious firepower to whittle you down before you can kill what needs killing and do what needs doing, and enough units to provide target overload without much or any combat-squadding. In my experience there's also something very intimidating to players about seeing so many marines across the table at only 1500 points.

 

Keeping that in mind I would say you should pack some combination of: a third tac squad, an assault squad, an assault scout squad.

 

Tac squads are, of course, old reliable. They're a versatile, durable troops choice.

The assault squad should theoretically be able to close with the plasma-toting guardsmen and either roast them with flamers or, if you can line up a multiple assault, disable a large amount of his shooting at once, shutting them up for a turn or 2 and probably wiping them out. Their mobility and flamers are also great for fighting genestealers, gaunts, and boyz. They do tend to draw a lot of fire being out in the open and all, though, so they can be tough to get the most out of.

The assault scout squad is generally one of my luckiest units. Their combat power is almost equivalent to a normal assault squad in most cases, (same S, number of attacks, and armament) though obviously their durability suffers with the 4+ armor and they give up jump movement in exchange for scout and infiltrate. Generally I outflank my assault scouts and pop a tank or 2 with krak grenades before charging whatever infantry units happen to be nearby. If he likes to keep his tanks/artillery/heavy weapons teams in the back then assault scouts outflanking can make things very uncomfortable for him. He either has to bunch everything up in the center of the table (where your TFCs will have fun with them) or spread out and accept that some units on the flank are going to die horribly and there's nothing he can do to stop it. To be fair, assault scouts are probably much less useful against bugs. Their krak grenades don't work on MCs like they do on tanks, and most of the units that they can beat in CC are just there to distract you anyway. They can add their attacks to an existing dogpile with good effect, though. Also, if they have a PF sergeant then they are just as good at killing MCs in melee as an ordinary tac squad. The PF, the only weapon that matters, is the same WS and S as a normal marine, and the difference in armor save doesn't mean much when you can't use it anyway. This is not to say that assault scouts are necessarily good at killing Hive Tyrants and the like, so much as that they can usually be expected to tag a wound or 2 on the bug before they go squish and make the big nasty waste a turn.

 

Anyway, that's my input. Take it with a grain of salt.