pueriexdeus Posted May 26, 2010 Share Posted May 26, 2010 Am in the process of working on a DW vs. Orks list for Apoc. Ive quite a few extra Heavy Flamers lying around an am wondering if they would be better than the Asscanon? Conventional wisdom says the Flamer will probably remove more figures than the Asscanon, but you'll then be out of charge range. Anybody have a valid answer on this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted May 26, 2010 Share Posted May 26, 2010 Flamer will kill more Orks, Assault Cannon will pop more Trukks. You pays your points and you takes your choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2413277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted May 26, 2010 Share Posted May 26, 2010 In addition to the issue of versatility/focus Koremu brings up, it also probably bears mentioning that using a Heavy Flamer means getting into charge range of Orks if they survive your shooting. Even in Terminator armor, being charged by Orks is bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2413303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 Hi Brothers B) An AC (for 30 points), will give you 4 S6 shots at 60 cm... same range as the SB. Basically, you shoot and walk away, avoiding CC. Remember though that trucks are open topped, so they can move 30 cm, then disembark and assault... you better be careful running around! A HF (for 5 points), will usually give you 3-5 S5 hits at some 20 cm... which means you better be thinking of assaulting or that you are camping next to an objective and you will force the ork to go at Ini 1. This said, I'd specialize xD Assault units with HF (even if its only 1 template in all the game, for 5 point you can take out easily 25 or 30 points of orks... I'd say its worth it!). If you want to play hide and seek, the problem is not AC vs HF... its the termies! 215 points + special weapon makes for a VERY expensive shooting platform. I'd consider going Greenwing if you want to avoid CC. Also, remember that AP 4 or AP 5 vs orks... they probably won't be getting saves with either. If you want a mobile transport-hunting unit, why not try some plasma assault marines? Hope it helps :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 Continuing on what Tanhausen said, I would have to agree that the choice between AC and HF really depends on what role you want the unit to be in. AC is a great choice for shooting terminators, while HF is much better suited to an assault-focused squad. It does bear mentioning that even Shooting Terminators do not fear close combat; a 2+/5++ with a Power Fist is pretty dangerous in close combat. While they cannot hold up against most dedicated elite assault units, DW shooting Terminators can still easily shred something like a Tactical squad in an assault, especially since their shooting can thin the ranks a bit beforehand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 Don't want to stray from the topic but... DW squad with AC: 245 points 10 marines with ML and Meltagun: 200? (not sure). You can throw a fist in just in case for a similar unit cost. Scenario A: DW shoots 4 SB ( 8 S4 shots) and 1 AC ( 4 S6) , which will kill 2+1.6 orks at 60 cm: 3.6 wounds Scenario B: Troops shoots 8 bolter (8 S4 shots), 1 ML ( 1 S8) and 1 MG ( 2 S7), which will kill 2+1+1 orks at 60+cm: 4 wounds If you use template, that would be a bigger difference. If you plan on camping, I'd go for Troops. Only 1 exception: fluff and all termi list :huh: (which I play myself xDDD) Personally, with no model or fluff restriction, if I know i'm playing orks, I'd spam Heavy Bolters for the foot orks and S7-8 for the transports. I'd say auto cannon/HB predators are your best friends, extremely versatile and the perfect tool for the task. If you have thick AV, chainfists and there is no tomorrow xDDD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 My advice to you is not to use tactical terminators. :huh: Get th/ss terminators, at least they can kill those nobz. Or even better, don't take the terminators at all and get anti-infantry/mech stuff like mm/hf speeders, typhoon speeders, whirlwinds, dakkapreds, etc. that can kill orks a lot better, anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 My advice to you is not to use tactical terminators. :huh: Get th/ss terminators, at least they can kill those nobz. Or even better, don't take the terminators at all and get anti-infantry/mech stuff like mm/hf speeders, typhoon speeders, whirlwinds, dakkapreds, etc. that can kill orks a lot better, anyway. :huh: What kind of advice is that for a DW army? From my experience, you don't need TH to kill nobs: Claws work PERFECTLY, with Ini 4 and re-roll to wound. Remember DA SS are only 4+ and in CC... not the best way to go ^_^ An important issue: how many points is the game? Because if its 3.000, you can pretty much use a "conventional" list. If its more like 5.000... you've got A LOT of manouvering margin to just pile in a billion termis... (drool xDD) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 What kind of advice is that for a DW army? Lol, I didn't notice that. Forgive me, I'm at work now and sleepy. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted May 27, 2010 Author Share Posted May 27, 2010 Tanhausen@ I'm bringing 20,000 points my partner another 15,000. The total for both side up around 70,000 points. Ina nut shell my list is; Belial w/Command Sqd 7 Libbies, 4 Chappies 15 DW Tac Sqds, PW, CF, 11 AsCan, 4 HF. Have 5 more HF I can put in exchange for AsCans. 9 DW Aslt Sqds, 7 LC's, 2 TH/SS 5 DW AT, PW, CF, CML 162 TDA Sammi LS/w Cmd Sqd 2 Attack Sqd/AB, MM/LS, Tornado 3 LS Tornados 2 S Typhoons 4 LRC's 2 Godhammers 1 Prometheus 1 Damocles 22 Ven Dreads/ 12 LPDP's 5 AsCan, DCCW 4 PC, DCCW 4 MM, DCCW 4 TLLC, ML 3 Mortis 2 TLAC, TLHB Ironclad Technought Inquisitor w/2 Vindicare Assassins Reaver Titan Its is set in stone, but I might be removing or altering some things to bring the points down to 18000. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 20,000 points worth of Dark Angels?! This issue is almost moot! You can do whatever you want!! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 ....er.... .... 20.000 points you say .... .... hmmm ... *** thinking of something to say *** I'm afraid the 1st company for DA only has 100 terminators... is it renting or leasing that you do the other? xDDDDD 22 Dreadnought... do we really have that many heroes? xDDDD HF vs AC? I guess it boils down to how CC you are feeling like! BTW, I DEMAND a picture of 20.000 points worth of DA. No excuses accepted :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted May 27, 2010 Author Share Posted May 27, 2010 ....er.... .... 20.000 points you say .... .... hmmm ... *** thinking of something to say *** I'm afraid the 1st company for DA only has 100 terminators... is it renting or leasing that you do the other? xDDDDD 22 Dreadnought... do we really have that many heroes? xDDDD HF vs AC? I guess it boils down to how CC you are feeling like! BTW, I DEMAND a picture of 20.000 points worth of DA. No excuses accepted :ph34r: Oh yes pictures will be coming. 162 TDA, it's my personal DIY Fluff, something to do with securing an ancient space hulk thingy. As far as the dreads, I really like large Apoc games. Here is a link to my 6000 point starter DW/RW army. After that game I was hooked, and just needed more. As far as CC I plan on the DWA with Dreads in DPA support. Plan of action is to scout the bikes, drop 6 dreads in their face with 12 TDA Squads. The Dreads should be able to tarpit the Orks and next turn charge with the TDA. But if the Orks bring a Disruption beacon it'll get my attention on turn 1. My most imposing issue is denying the Orks the charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 Dreads dropping in turn 1? I guess you play by C:SM VERY nice work on the bearer :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justicar Valius Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 He's using the IA2 lucius pattern dreadnought drop pod. C:SM rules for a pod but 50 points. Oh and did i mention it's an assault vehicle? yeh... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2414978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted May 29, 2010 Share Posted May 29, 2010 What is a lucius pattern pod? Where can I find more about it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2416801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted May 29, 2010 Share Posted May 29, 2010 Well if you are playing DA then the question of flammer or AC depends entirely one one thing, how are you kiting out the rest of the squad. 4 lightning claws pairs/hammer sheild sets and a heavy flamer termy will make for one of the best assault terminator squads available (even with out the 3++ sheilds), if the rest of your termies are rocking storm bolters then go AC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2416807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted May 29, 2010 Author Share Posted May 29, 2010 Well if you are playing DA then the question of flammer or AC depends entirely one one thing, how are you kiting out the rest of the squad. 4 lightning claws pairs/hammer sheild sets and a heavy flamer termy will make for one of the best assault terminator squads available (even with out the 3++ sheilds), if the rest of your termies are rocking storm bolters then go AC. So your recommendation is to leave the SB/PF Squads with an AssCannon, and Add the HF/PF to my CC Squads. Yep I've enough to do that. Right now 5 of my 9 CC Squads are mounted in LR's. 3 LRC's, 2 Godhammers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2416870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted May 29, 2010 Share Posted May 29, 2010 Well if you are playing DA then the question of flammer or AC depends entirely one one thing, how are you kiting out the rest of the squad. 4 lightning claws pairs/hammer sheild sets and a heavy flamer termy will make for one of the best assault terminator squads available (even with out the 3++ sheilds), if the rest of your termies are rocking storm bolters then go AC. So your recommendation is to leave the SB/PF Squads with an AssCannon, and Add the HF/PF to my CC Squads. Yep I've enough to do that. Right now 5 of my 9 CC Squads are mounted in LR's. 3 LRC's, 2 Godhammers. Indeed, the ability to mix tactical and assault terminators is very potent, and shared only by the wolfs who pay more for it. A heavy flamer is best right in the thick of it were the assault termies want to be. Hop out, burn something, and cut whats left to ribons in assault, and targets for assault terminators tend to be hard enouph that you rarely have to worry about the flamer making them break and takeing them out of assault range. Asscannons like a little more breathing room, perfect for tacticals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2417085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted May 30, 2010 Share Posted May 30, 2010 How come Frosty posts and you take him in consideration... and when I do, no comment made? Is he blond, 1,80 and has a NICE pair of reasons? :blush: Now seriously, when are you having that game? I'd love to see some pics! Also, the mention someone said of Lucius pod... can you point me where to find more info? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2417961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justicar Valius Posted May 30, 2010 Share Posted May 30, 2010 Forge world download section before they changed the site. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2417973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 How come Frosty posts and you take him in consideration... and when I do, no comment made? Is he blond, 1,80 and has a NICE pair of reasons? :D It's cus I am a heavily armed snowman, you would be suprised at how much that lets me get away with. On topic, If you have a few extra points to burn, mixing a few chainfist will make the units increadably dangerous to vehicles (though there arnt a lot of orky things with strong back armor). Again the DA ability to mix assault and tactical means you can have chainfists along with the hammers/claws (and HF) and it will be a major threat to any and all posible targets short of a monolith. Though as this is an apoc game, you may even want to have a pure chainfist squad to hunt stompas and other superheavy walkers. I will admit a small bias though, I love the asthetics of chainfists so that may color my opinion some. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2418238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Tank shock goes by front AV, right? +1 to Chain Fists! For 5 points, they are probably the least considered option and its SO useful :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202524-heavy-flamerasscanon/#findComment-2418446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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