Counts as Blood Angels

[JamesI]

Ehm? Because it's nowhere in the fluff at all? Agreed

 

THX-they are really cool, but a hedge will usely block their line of sight

 

I play Real Orks (DEFF WHENG), Real Blood Angels (Flesh Tearers 8th Company), I play grot Guard, I even Play space wolves in Apocalypse sometimes, (21 SS+TH termi Lone wolves) my 300 Spartans.

 

I have played every army to great extent except Eldar and tyranid. I see no reason to guard our codex with such Zealous Selfishness. I would rather spread understanding as others see our codex as game breaking, it is, but its fragile at the same token with rage easily thwarted and rhinos that pop killing everyone inside because they move flat out.

 

Its fun to do a counts as army once in a while

If your rhino moves flat out and gets destroyed, you can get out just like any other transport.

 

You can't get out of a vehicle that moves flat out on the same turn (so if somehow your rhino dies on your turn your dead) but on your opponents turn you can get out if the rhino dies.

[Looted Monolith]

Rule lawering begin

I dont run rhinos, or any vehicle aside from a Storm raven that can move flat out.

 

Where I am, we're under the impression that if a vehicle moves flat out and then is wrecked not Blown up

everyone dies because it spicificly says so under a vehicle moving flat out.

 

I like watching eldar die, and it really has no negative effect on me as the storm raven specifically ignores this saying that a transported unit may still disembark after moving flat out. Ork trucks as well I think override this sudden death because of their ramshackle.

 

And note it say "in the same turn as the vehicle has moved Very very fast", not Player turn, or phase.

 

your turn

 

while were engaged in the rule Lawering dose it say anywhere counts as is acceptable in the CORE RULE BOOK?

 

I also agree very much with DROOFUS's argument about un painted gimicy space marine armys.

[JamesI]

LM, the rulebook states that anytime it uses turn it means player turn unless otherwise specified. This is a player turn issue. Vehicles moving flat out that are wrecked do not instantly kill the passengers.

[Arikel]

I haven't had a chance to fully check out the ba codex but the fast vehicles rules you get make me think it would work to make a viable(and fluffy) white scars force. Their specific blurb in the sm codex states they heavily modify all their tanks so as to keep pace with their bikers and recon forces but the sm codex doesn't give them any way to actually do so on the table. I have my own diy chapter i focus on but if I were to branch out to a white scars force i'd take a good look at the ba codex and see if it would fit well.

[JamesI]

I haven't had a chance to fully check out the ba codex but the fast vehicles rules you get make me think it would work to make a viable(and fluffy) white scars force. Their specific blurb in the sm codex states they heavily modify all their tanks so as to keep pace with their bikers and recon forces but the sm codex doesn't give them any way to actually do so on the table. I have my own diy chapter i focus on but if I were to branch out to a white scars force i'd take a good look at the ba codex and see if it would fit well.

 

If you're playing a transport heavy White scars force, it could probably work. The lack of bikes as troops makes the BA codex a poor substitute for White Scars.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Sometime in the future, when I'll be able to complete my dream of having a complete =I= themed collection (DHs, WHs, Red Hunters or Exorcists marines with Deathwatch) I plan to make a count as BA list like:

 

Red Hunters counting as BA (assault caout as assault, termies as termies and so on);

Deathwathc counting as DC;

PAGKs counting as Sanguine Guard.

 

I don't think it would be "atrocious", since it would be pretty clear in the table the differences in those units and very easy to relate the current model to the one that he is representing.

 

"Count As" don't deny WYSIWYG. It's only true for cheesy players or uber-friendly, "everything goes" matches. No need have such a drama, the players just need to have good sense. What is atrocious to me in the end is people annoyed to have Ultras counting as BAs, even if all units are being represented correctly.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

I haven't had a chance to fully check out the ba codex but the fast vehicles rules you get make me think it would work to make a viable(and fluffy) white scars force. Their specific blurb in the sm codex states they heavily modify all their tanks so as to keep pace with their bikers and recon forces but the sm codex doesn't give them any way to actually do so on the table. I have my own diy chapter i focus on but if I were to branch out to a white scars force i'd take a good look at the ba codex and see if it would fit well.

 

If you're playing a transport heavy White scars force, it could probably work. The lack of bikes as troops makes the BA codex a poor substitute for White Scars.

Personally I think there are enough Blood Angel players around as it is,without others doing a "counts as" just to take advantage of the shiny new 'dex.

As far as it goes,the only halfway amusing thing I could think of,and this is really just my thought that Necrons REALLY need an upgrade,is using Death Company rules to represent Necrons. with whoever is in charge of the Death Company as a Necron Lord. No I don't know who is in charge,And I don't feel strongly enough about it to look it up. I just think that the similarities between the Death company as unstoppable Maniacs,and the Necrons as supposed to be unstoppable killing machines,It could be a interesting and halfway decent way of doing it till their new dex comes out...Though you would have to do some serious work to make it fit properly. Limit alot of stuff,namely all the psyker stuff since it wouldn't fit. Most of the Vehicles too. DC Dreads would work for heavy destroyers...though I think the Blood talon option would be a bit much. You could make a decent case for Rhinos or Razorbacks,just because well..Necron's need transport vehicles. Anything bigger then that would be iffy. I don't know how you would represent the scarabs...but they would be the only possible option for troops with jump packs,anything else wouldn't be appropriate.

 

If someone were to take the time,and the effort to do appropriate and logical research on it. To limit themselves from the parts of the Codex that doesn't make sense for their Army. AND has access to only a 4th edition Codex for their Army otherwise,then maybe. I used Necrons and Death Company as an example because in 5th they are supposed to have FNP as a army wide thing. Not to mention anything is better then working with "We'll be back"

and Ideally,I would want someone to do that,to work on converting a Necron and Blood Angel force together to make it look appropriate. Who knows...Maybe a Necron Lord,after suffering repeated defeats at the hands of the Space Marines,decides that he needs to better understand his enemies. So he captures about 30-40 Blood Angels and starts Necro-tizing them like they do with the Pariahs. The Geneseed ends up working the changes into it rather then rejecting it,thus making them more metal then Flesh. You might even work some fluff into it about them needing to feast on Metal and other hard substances instead of having the urge to drink blood. *sudden images of a group of mechanical blood angels swarming over a Chimera and Eating it.*

 

Yes I can totally understand why some people would be very disturbed by other players taking all the meat from their 'dex and not the rest,because for alot of us its the rest that makes us play the chapters we do.

[Ranwulf]

If you can play with the Salamanders just by having Vulkan,when you army is painted red, seriously, I don't see any problem.

 

And Night Lords ARE Raptors specialists. And Blood Angels don't have more Jump Packs than other chapters, after all, they are a Codex Astartes followers. And Seriously, Deep Striking with Jump Packs seems very like Night Lords and Raven Guard style, I mean, Marbo deep strike is a Sneak attack, then Night Lords and Raven Guard models following BA Codex rules, with Jump Packs, CAN mean they are Sneak Attacking their opponents.

 

Oh, and since Dante gives Hit and run rules to his squad, I think he's a very Raven Guard and Night Lords HQ.

 

Ran

[Menos]

See the thing I think the problem is, is that there are many layers or levels to the "count-as" monster.

 

First we have the players saying its "fluff related" ala our Night Lord, ,Word Bearer/World Eater, and White Scars (?) players.

(I think that the problem is not that we have count as, but they have a codex already, and now they believe that they have a better fit that what the designers had originally...designed.)

 

Second, we have people that confuse Proxy for count-as. Koller brought up a good situation about BT being counted-as Blood Angels and one squad being used as DC, and another being used as a Regular Assault Squad. (This is what most people have a problem with. This type of count-as rubs me the wrong way). Hey, you want to try out a Jump Pack, or the Blood Rodeo, or Predator Heavy force? Go for it. Once, twice, three times max. If you like it, buy the models. If not, don't waste my time.

 

Then we have the count-as crazy person. Case in point this Mechanicus army. Hey give me a written list, let me pour over it for a sec, tell me anything that doesn't jump out as totally obvious, then lets game. Even if I get obliterated, at least I did it against a beautiful, and thought out army!

 

I say to you that discount count-as players. Do you all play Blood Angles? Do any of you play Flesh Tearers? If so, what do you do when you want to field Mephiston, Dante, Lemartes, Astorath, Tyco, and Corbulo? Are you only playing generic Librarians, Chaplains/Reclusiarchs, and Captains, and Seth (is anyone using him btw)? If not, shame on you! (Lol really, but c'mon double standard much?)

 

My thoughts might be a bit over the board, but I'll leave on this note.

 

I played (back in 3rd edition) a Blood Angels force. I (thanks to a house rule) fielded Mephiston, in my force along with Tacs, and other fun stuff.

Now, I'm fielding a Blood Angels successor count-as Nurgle (using the BA rules of course I've never known anything else). Would you discount me, or refuse to play me?

[Verythrax Draconis]

I agree with menos in almost everything, I only don't see a problem on "redo" an army that have a codex using "count as" as another codex.

 

Dunno how it was in UK and US, but during the end of the 3rd ed/beggining of the 4th ed, the opposed was a LOT common here - people using BAs and DAs as vanilla marines cause of the lack of proper rules (or even proper minis and books, since there's no GW officially here), so people needed to stick with vanilla tacs, assaults and scouts, and I took a long time to see bearded SWs here ;)

 

My point about doing a vanilla "codex astartes" army counting as BA is just because I want gameplay variety. I don't see a point of buying the same miniatures all over again, and have a second army with the same color (red) just to please some obscure gaming orthodoxy. I don't have that kind of money to spare, and even if I had, I don't think it would be a smart buy - a complete army is expensive, and "buying the game" twice just for such small change doesn't cut, since we are talking on just marines here. If I can play my minis in several different ways, why shouldn't do it? Of course, it can't cover all the possibilities, but think about it:

 

If you see a vanilla SM army on the table, that you were told that are counting as SW, what would those minis represent?

 

1) a unit of PA marines with chainswords and pistols, WITHOUT jump packs?

2) a unit of unbearded, wolfskin-free termies?

 

In a count as BA army, what could be those vanilla marines in 'A' color inside an army of 'B' color?

 

Playing count as is not difficult, unless your opponent really forces a hand.

[Whitefireinferno]

My take on the "Counts as" rule is it should be melta'd But thats just my veiw, Also I think certain things are okay Like somebody using our codex for a 8th co due to our JP troops and 85% of the time they completly Avoid anything thats BAly like baals, Furis and our SC's and stick with a Captain and such because all they wanted were loads of JP troops = No problem on my book, Then we have ones that I tend to Argue with around these boards Like a certain BT player that was attempting to pass off a army with Dante and SangGuard as a BT army it had nothing that was not a unique to the BA things oh thats right the other HQ was the Sanguinator the army just SCREAMS BTs Might as well had Mephy in it and called it a day.

 

Oh andMenos I am a Tearer of Flesh and I run Seth no matter what and If I wanted to run other SC's there would be a Unit of BA in my army and say they were having a chat Master to Master and such and :angry: went down and had to fight something thus why they were there but yeah I will just stick to my normal libbys and Chaplins and such because the other SC's are not Flesh Tearer's so will not be feilded in their colours EVER.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

My take on the "Counts as" rule is it should be melta'd But thats just my veiw, Also I think certain things are okay Like somebody using our codex for a 8th co due to our JP troops and 85% of the time they completly Avoid anything thats BAly like baals, Furis and our SC's and stick with a Captain and such because all they wanted were loads of JP troops = No problem on my book, Then we have ones that I tend to Argue with around these boards Like a certain BT player that was attempting to pass off a army with Dante and SangGuard as a BT army it had nothing that was not a unique to the BA things oh thats right the other HQ was the Sanguinator the army just SCREAMS BTs Might as well had Mephy in it and called it a day.

 

Oh andMenos I am a Tearer of Flesh and I run Seth no matter what and If I wanted to run other SC's there would be a Unit of BA in my army and say they were having a chat Master to Master and such and :angry: went down and had to fight something thus why they were there but yeah I will just stick to my normal libbys and Chaplins and such because the other SC's are not Flesh Tearer's so will not be feilded in their colours EVER.

I should make my position clear...I have zero difficulties with people proxying,as long as they take an effort to make it clear at the start of the game what is what...Ideally in a way thats easy for me to remember...when I am proxying I do the same thing...give a full list whenever wysiwyg isnt in effect,and often make a cheat sheet for my opponents to look at during the game detailing all the changes.

 

ehat bugs me is stealing someone elses codex without a lot of thought and effort for why you are doing it.

[Knyx]

You could run pre-heresy world eaters very easily, at the end of false gods Horus heresy novel, Angron=Mefiston led 100 jump pack equipped berzerkers= Tons of DC w/jumppacks into the last fortress of the techno...guys

 

I don't remember anything about Angron calling bloody wings of Sanguineous to his back in that battle, or transfixing anyone with his daemonic gaze. Or using any Psychic Hoods.

Nor do I remember anything in that book about the World Eaters Assault Marines (Not Berserkers at the time) attempting to die in battle, and shouting things to the invisible Horus(s) they see in their minds.

Nor do I know how World Eaters would work out having to take Astorath the Grim in order to even field 100 Death Company. Forget any of the other Blood Angels things.

 

Pre Heresy, even the Blood Angels would be without Death Company and Death Company rules. That would just be 100 Assault Marines, even for us.

 

Or just recently i have started a small counts as imperial guard all grot army to back my orks in apoc, i have scratch built a GROT KOMISAR YARIK and about 30 other random grot fredom fighters, they are so much more fun to create/work on than actual guard.

If you had taken the time to read the very first sentence in my post, you would know I think that is both acceptable and admirable. You've started a Counts as army, by making it your own from the ground up. You are playing Imperial Guard, with awesome Orky models, and have gone through the trouble of making them.

 

That is not the same as, say, taking an Ork Boy Model on 22mm base and saying that its ferocity and toughness is represented by the Death Company because its fluffy like that.

 

Knyx: why do we have Librarian Dreadnoughts? And not the Thousand sons, Not the Ultramarines, the night lords primarch has as much phycic ability as Sanguinius maybe they are entitled to the chance to use it, and they to can lose it first turn.

 

You've missed the point entirely.

Everyone else could totally use them, just without all the Blood Angel Powers. The second you use them with Blood Angel powers they become (suprise!) Blood Angel Librarian Dreadnoughts.

 

"They are Death Company because Horus killed Sanguineous SO horribly, that it STILL drives people insane. " What? Everything in 40k is awful and horrable, everyone is insane. And Sanguinious new what he had to do, what would be done to him, to give the emperor a chance, get our regergetated fluff right. I dont get where you'r coming from it is a game where we, very old men play with little dolls, just cause another old man would like to breath new fun life into his little dolls by using my codex Im not gonna tell him not to.

 

Well, if you had even bothered to research the chapter that your considering a count as army for, you would know that the Black Rage is effectively Sanguineous psychic death scream on a genetic level, because Horus cursed all his children to feel the annihilation (really the best way to describe it) of their father. Now, when Blood Angels succumb to it, they relive the battle as if they were Sanguineous.

 

The second half of what your saying has no relation to the point you start with, but I actually find it to be a better argument. Only, the people I have seen attempting to do this can be immediately sized up as people doing it for the advantage in battle, not to breathe life into any army they have.

 

 

Your whole argument is baseless, you must live a very short angry life, have fun playing by your self.

Lol. The Interweb 1, 2 combo. Saying someone is incorrect, showing no reasoning or proof of why and then hiding behind personal attacks on them.

 

 

Out of obligation to anyone who has to waste time reading my response, I ask you to maybe attempt to explain why its so baseless? It would be interesting to see you try to find ways to twist my words. The validity of the points I'm making is practically self evident, so its really the only rout your going to be able to take to try to make me seem "baseless".

 

 

I started this thread to help people cope with our codex, Not so we could aggressively horde our precious sanguanry priest, god forbid they touch our baals.

I started this army so I could play this army. Not so I could lose a few games to Imperial Guard, get annoyed and say that my Rhino is like a Chimera because at heart they are both APCs, and fire a Mulilaser because it is better than the Stormbolter my codex has stuck me with.

 

Similarly, I do not appreciate it when people try to "cope" with a codex by choosing NOT to cope with it. To cope with it would be to rethink what your doing, and invent new ways to counter and deal with it, not giving up, taking some easy way out and opting to just USE it instead and then having the gall to call it fluffy for anything besides a Blood Angel to behave like a Blood Angel.

[Whitefireinferno]

I agree with Knyx I'm completly over seeing every angel army under the sun and hearing the bolox about how it is fluffy for them to be like this Hell I might as well jump on the "counts as BA" rule *Its full Counts as BA not just Counts as* for my Farsight Tau army since he is painted red and his boys like to punch things.....No wait I have sense to not disgrace my army like that by jumping ship because something new and shiny is around.

 

But come on people the ONLY things that will ever and I mean EVER get Baal's and Furi's are the BLOOD ANGELS and their SUCCESSORS and we take jp troops because we ignore old "Rowboat Jellyman"'s silly book same with the Wolves and the Templars and the DA there are certain things I will tolerate using our codex and those are the ones that avoid anything that completly SCREAMS BA ONLY Like any codex chapter using it for RAS troops for a 8th co list and you know what they dont have? Baal preds and mephy and SangGuard.

[Looted Monolith]

Great thanks for clearing the transport rule i may or may not tell the eldar player with the mechanized army.

 

And Knyx you have massacred my argument, may your dice roll as well as you debate, I see no need for a re-rebutle.

 

I will stand that if someone puts time and effort into a conversion, Modeling or rules wise it will be a good conversion.

[Vilicate]

You could run pre-heresy world eaters very easily, at the end of false gods Horus heresy novel, Angron=Mefiston led 100 jump pack equipped berzerkers= Tons of DC w/jumppacks into the last fortress of the techno...guys

 

I don't remember anything about Angron calling bloody wings of Sanguineous to his back in that battle, or transfixing anyone with his daemonic gaze. Or using any Psychic Hoods.

Nor do I remember anything in that book about the World Eaters Assault Marines (Not Berserkers at the time) attempting to die in battle, and shouting things to the invisible Horus(s) they see in their minds.

Nor do I know how World Eaters would work out having to take Astorath the Grim in order to even field 100 Death Company. Forget any of the other Blood Angels things.

 

Pre Heresy, even the Blood Angels would be without Death Company and Death Company rules. That would just be 100 Assault Marines, even for us.

 

 

Well, all that stuff is relatively easy to explain my friend.

 

1. Angron

 

Angron is a big dude, and his jump pack isn't exactly an STC design. So he's got to fiddle with it, and it works great a lot of the time, but sometimes it doesn't work out quite as well as he'd like to it. So he has to make a leadership test to get it to work, and sometimes it just overheats and burns him. Counts as Wings of Sanguinius.

 

Angron is also very intimidating. One fierce gaze can petrify even the most battle-hardened of war-leaders. Counts as Transfixing Gaze

 

Angron, worshiping Khorne (whether he knows he is or not), is the bane of psykers. He (like Leman Russ in A Thousand Sons) can attempt to stop psychic powers with his pure will power. Works like a psychic hood.

 

2. World Eaters

 

World Eaters bear the aggression enhancing brain implants that were grafted originally to their primarch Angron. He has ruled that all new recruits will continue to be implanted. This makes them little more than mindless killing machines. World Eater Marines count as Death Company.

 

3. Astrorath

 

World Eaters Captains are brutal creatures, and extoll their companies to greater heights of bloodshed. You must take a World Eaters Captain. Counts as Astrorath the Grim.

[Chimaera2000]

As I said before, I have no problem with people who make an effort to justify the playstyle of their army (World Eaters, Night Lords, etc.). Hell, I admire them for thinking outside the box.

 

The thing that really irks me is the people who play their grey, unpainted marines by whatever the latest codex is. Face facts, many of these folks were probably playing Space Wolves back in January, and switched between Chaos Marines and Codex Marines before that. It reeks of a "win at all costs" attitude that totally ignores a good part of what I enjoy in the hobby. They can do whatever the heck they want, but I'm free to find their attitude annoying as well.

 

But again, if some poor player had invisioned an all-jump assault marines force for his strikeforce for a long time and jumped at the chance to field one with the blood angels dex, I say 'More power to you, and welcome to the fold!'.

 

I think you're right: this is really an issue of the motivation of the player! In many cases one can tell whether using "count-as" will further the fun of everyone at the table or not. A player who is hopping from Codex to Codex for to utilize the latest kick-butt build is a lot like a "Spike" player in Magic (going for Win at All Costs) and is often annoying to play against. A player who's using the new Codex to make an other unfeasible army playable (like a low-points-cost army with load of Chaos Raptors), then everyone's enjoyment would be increased.

 

If it's a matter of the player's attitude, don't play with them if it's really not fun to play against them!

[Verythrax Draconis]

Well, all that stuff is relatively easy to explain my friend.

 

1. Angron

 

Angron is a big dude, and his jump pack isn't exactly an STC design. So he's got to fiddle with it, and it works great a lot of the time, but sometimes it doesn't work out quite as well as he'd like to it. So he has to make a leadership test to get it to work, and sometimes it just overheats and burns him. Counts as Wings of Sanguinius.

 

Angron is also very intimidating. One fierce gaze can petrify even the most battle-hardened of war-leaders. Counts as Transfixing Gaze

 

Angron, worshiping Khorne (whether he knows he is or not), is the bane of psykers. He (like Leman Russ in A Thousand Sons) can attempt to stop psychic powers with his pure will power. Works like a psychic hood.

 

2. World Eaters

 

World Eaters bear the aggression enhancing brain implants that were grafted originally to their primarch Angron. He has ruled that all new recruits will continue to be implanted. This makes them little more than mindless killing machines. World Eater Marines count as Death Company.

 

3. Astrorath

 

World Eaters Captains are brutal creatures, and extoll their companies to greater heights of bloodshed. You must take a World Eaters Captain. Counts as Astrorath the Grim.

 

 

Dunno if the suggestions fit fluffwise or not, since I'm not a BA or WE player myself, but that's the spirit. The "BA rules" are just names. The rules main talk about very simple spatial and math effects. These can be translated as almost anything.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

So out of curiosity,what did you guys think about the idea of the death company to represent Necrons? I am not planning on using that,but would like the viewpoints of some of the people here. My Local game store has a upcoming low points Scenario tournament,and one of the requirements is that everyone is mounted in vehicles. One of my best friends at the store plays necrons. He busts his ass to be competitive with a...horribly outdated list. But this scenario set up would totally screw him over since necrons dont get transport vehicles. And at 300 points there is no way he can get a monolith,Lord,AND 5 models. So given the idea of using a rhino or Razorback as a Transport,and Death Company as a substitute for the necron's WBB,since they get FNP instead when their codex comes out. What do you guys think of that Idea,what would be the problems with it,so on and so forth. The scenario allready includes the fact that squad size and FOC are not going to be enforced,at least at the beginning. I think its probably aimed at a mix between Necromunda and 40k.

 

And if he likes the idea,and the scenarios continue at higher points...what would be the units that would make sense for him to use? I know that any of the Psykers wouldn't. I think continuing the idea of the Death company would probably be the best option for him..I am not sure about the DC Dreads,but that would be why I am asking. Rhinos and Razorbacks would obviously be available as thats half the point after all. Land Raider might be a good analogy for the Monolith but thats for later rounds if at all. If you guys were doing it,how would you fill the heavy weapons role in a Death Company Army. Also,what if anything is needed to field a pure Death Company army?

[JamesI]

Death company seem a poor substitute for Necrons. Too tough up close. Perhaps a tac squad with a priest is a better analogy.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Death company seem a poor substitute for Necrons. Too tough up close. Perhaps a tac squad with a priest is a better analogy.

Hmmm...I can see that...I was just going on the idea of "these dont need anything to get FNP" but..your probably right...they are a bit more up close and in your face then Necrons tend to be. Hmmm..Its definitely something to think about. Is there a decent Priest Character that he could use as a substitute for a Necron Lord? or would it just be better to try Honor Guard attached to a Captain?

[Priest33]

My question here is what do people think of chapters created with teh BA codex in mind? I currently play a DIY chapter using the Ba codex and only chose the ba codex because I like assault troops. The theme behind my chapter is that its a fast strike force that uses drop pods and fast transports as well as jump packs. I ignore the red rage rolls at the begining of the game and rarely take a sang priest (and If I do I clame that hes a chapter hero) Am I breaking peoples hobbies by doing this?

[Menos]

Priest the slippery slope comes when say the BT codex or DA codex comes out, and now all of a sudden, your DIY Chapter (man I love acronyms) is more Faithy (?) or Scardy Catty. Then we as a whole have a problem. Stick with a Codex fore better or for worse that is what the sentiment seems to be.

 

KNYX

I don't remember anything about Angron calling bloody wings of Sanguineous to his back in that battle, or transfixing anyone with his daemonic gaze. Or using any Psychic Hoods.

Nor do I remember anything in that book about the World Eaters Assault Marines (Not Berserkers at the time) attempting to die in battle, and shouting things to the invisible Horus(s) they see in their minds.

Nor do I know how World Eaters would work out having to take Astorath the Grim in order to even field 100 Death Company. Forget any of the other Blood Angels things.

Pre Heresy, even the Blood Angels would be without Death Company and Death Company rules. That would just be 100 Assault Marines, even for us.

 

This is where players get caught up with the count-as I believe. They forget to make the distinction between fluff and rules. The rules are just that. They are black and white, and nothing more. They have no memories, no feelings, no intentions. They simply tell us what can and can not happen during the course of our war. You want to play with the Blood Angels codex because of the rules? You are more than welcome to do so. But please do not say to me that you're fluff justifying it in some way. Just tell me the truth.

 

Fluff on the other hands make this game go from playing Monopoly to Warhammer 40k. You want a ruleset and gameplay with no emotion, go play Yahtzee. The player that count-as their armies following fluff (whatever it may be) and then they bring it in line with the ruleset in an interesting and engrossing way. They get "win internetz" from me 100 fold.

 

I bring to you, the masses another hypothetical. Going on the B&C's Dornian Heresy, the Blood Angels have "fallen" to Nurgle. If I wanted to pay homage to this piece of fluff, and when and built and army looking like Death Guard but using the BA codex would you get upset? What if I painted my men red and went and used Codex: Nurgle Troops, how about then?

 

All I'm saying is you have your own feelings. Yes we all know opionions are like feet...blah blah blah. But why are you getting so stir-crazy for? Get upset at the WAAC players Codex jumping. Get upset at the players that have more time to type away at a computer supposing how to run an army than actually play said army. Get up in arms over people that have 10 show armies. Don't get mad at the guy that has painstakenly taken the time to match up his army (wether DIY or Night Lords/WE/BT...et al) with rules of a different army, trying his best to get the best representation on the tabletop of his army the way HE SEES it should be represented.

 

Requiem: The few amounts of fluff I've read about the Necrons shows that they are every bit of "up close and in your face" as you can get with Automatons made from Living Metal. I/You could easily say that this is a Necron Tombe world that has lost touch with the greater "hive mind thingy (?)" and as such they are a bit more "Mad" (good to explain the Rage ruleset). As far as combat effectivness, they are an experiment in a new type of Warrior. They are a combined from Pariahs, and regular Warriors, but it has left the mind fractured (another good excuse for Rage). See, the fluff can be fit to match the rules. Anything can be anything in the World of Warhammerer (as long as it doesn't go against much verified and established fluff ala killing the Emperor, or making the Warmaster survive the beatdown he got.)

 

I've let this go on too long but hopefulyy my words have taken hold of a few of you and at least brought to you a better understanding of the Count-as machine.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Requiem: The few amounts of fluff I've read about the Necrons shows that they are every bit of "up close and in your face" as you can get with Automatons made from Living Metal. I/You could easily say that this is a Necron Tombe world that has lost touch with the greater "hive mind thingy (?)" and as such they are a bit more "Mad" (good to explain the Rage ruleset). As far as combat effectivness, they are an experiment in a new type of Warrior. They are a combined from Pariahs, and regular Warriors, but it has left the mind fractured (another good excuse for Rage). See, the fluff can be fit to match the rules. Anything can be anything in the World of Warhammerer (as long as it doesn't go against much verified and established fluff ala killing the Emperor, or making the Warmaster survive the beatdown he got.)

I was pretty much looking for advice and good or bad recommendations so I could present it to my buddy. You do have some really interesting Ideas for the fluff behind it,but I was looking at a more rules-centric view point. Trying to come up with a decent outline to propose to him on monday when I see him next. And to get a feel for what people would consider "Only Blood Angels get this" kind of thing. So far from what I see thats the Psyker powers and the Characters. Those are the things that people seem the most upset about other people using without coming out and using a Blood Angel army.

 

And if it helps put it in perspective I allready thought about how I would represent them as Space Wolves,but it just didnt really fit. We are good in a fight but we don't have the unstoppable killing machine feel that the Death company does. Our greatest strength comes from individuality and non conforming,which kind of seemed totally opposite to Necron mentality. Not to say that Blood angels are unthinking automatons or anything like that don't worry.

 

anyways,thanks again for the advice.

[the jeske]

I think the problem is not that guy X makes a NL raptor heavy army with a single DP , at least not for most people . The problem is that guy that plays against you as BA , against your friend as SW and against some noob as BT[didnt knew about RZ +took psyker =first turn charge].