Counts as Blood Angels

[Dingareth]

@SamaNagol

whoopsy! my mistake on that one (i corrected my post) I was refering to codex swapping not wysiwyg. Should have corrected my post before posting it....sorry

 

 

also my point is not whether its legal or functional. It is obvious that "codex hopping" is a common occurance. My point is simply that it could be rather rough on the opponents...especially new guys like me who need all the help we can get =)

 

I have 4 Iron Warriors armies- all WYSIWYG and painted. I have Long Fangs, Furiosos, Sanguinary Priests, Thunder Wolves, Thunderfire Cannons, and Plague Marines. It's not rough on the opponents at all. All it takes is a little common sense. If I generally use some Thunder Wolves, but today I have a big flyer with a Dreadnaught hanging out the back, then I'm probably not running Wolves am I?

 

I don't see where people can be confused by Counts As. Proxies, yes; however, the two are a world apart.

[gabrionus1]

of course it isn't confusing as to what is what....at least once you say which army your generic minis represent.

thats not at all what I'm saying.

 

Perhaps I feel this was because I come from a predominately WHFB experiance. And playing at a rather strict GW store also.

 

But as I said half the fun and learning curve was to learn your opponents playstyle due to the specific army they tended to bring.

Now that doesn't meant people never had more than one army...

 

whatever....we are arguing feelings/opinions (not rules) here, which is kinda pointless really.

[Nevyen]

Ive been reading this thread with some interest over the last few weeks and months. For me this is about common sense and being true to the rule around WYSIWYG.

 

My rational was that, as fun and fantastic all the current 'official fluff' is I started my project about 18 months ago with a view to build my own chapter, and use multiple codex's to represent differnt companies in an overall chapter. 1: I love space marines, have since the old rouge trader days, and 2: I really like the idea of one day deploying a varied apoc force.

 

The one thing im taking pains to do is that the two armies are not being made from one sepcific collection. So I have the space wolf army all WYSIWYG and then the BA army im working on is Also WYSIWYG. Its one chapter but two companies each a unique collection with a specific theme.

 

The fact im taking the time to do that should not mean i get discriminated against by purists and Im happy to argue with anyone about this as I also see a codex as but stat lines and rules. The fluff is what you make of it and Ive chosen to go the path of making my own.

 

If your interested this is my blog wolftemplars.blogspot.com

[SamaNagol]

I see no difference between using the same collections of WYSIWYG models you have carefully converted or magnetized as different chapters using different codex rules, than just buying another army so you can switch to whatever the newest codex is. Just means the second person has more money than the first.

 

And your bank balance is not a determination of character for me. Neither is it a determination of your ability as a general or a modeller.

 

As long as you please please for the love of god use wysiwyg models so I dont have to think too hard about things outside of the battle at hand, then all is well with me.

[Nevyen]

Im not too sure but when did someones character or how one would determine that character came into the conversation.

 

Im purely on the side of if you play with a model what you see is what you get, so if they have jump packs you model jump packs etc.

 

Its my experiance that once you have articulated what is on the table, its clear and there is no confusion then thats all you really need to do.

 

Ive only ever come across one person who took issue with the idea that my space wolf army was not in a grey colour and was not sporting wolf icons etc.

 

The fact that yes I can afford to buy two seperate armies has nothing to do with it, I was just articulating that I think no matter what you do it should be properly shown on the models you use.

[gabrionus1]

seems like most of the past few responses have been addressed towards me so once again I will state what I meant.

1) codex hopping can be confusing and hard on the newer opponents of any group who might need help learning the game and even learning their opponents. It is obvious that codex hopping can help the person hopping financially and tactically..that was not of dispute

2) High frequency of change is what can be confusing. If a "counts as" army is fairly regular thats fine, but hopping between many published marine armies can make it very difficult for the newer opponents to have any success whatsoever... (which is necessary to keep some people interested)...unless the opposing player(s) purchases every codex being used it will be very difficult for them to learn much of their opponent (you).

3) no one is saying there are any actual rules being broken as long as the army is wysiwyg.

 

I find it curious how people get so defensive over this topic when my only point was that it might be nicer to your newer opponents to maintain some consistency when playing them....

People keep on spouting the same "I can do it if I want" points. No one is saying you cant. but if you have freedom to do so, others have freedom to dislike high frequency of codex change. Seems to me like a lot of this game is learning to associate with the guy or girl across the table from you....of course all this comes from a guy who is used to play no more than 3-5 regular opponents, I can definately see how in a larger group where you rarely face the same guy anyway...that you wouldn't get the luxury of learning an opponent anyway and none of my point would make any difference anyway lol!

 

and Like I said my only concern is the new/ignorant guy who needs some grace =)

[SamaNagol]

It's such a non issue though, as long as the army is WYSIWYG.

 

There's far more pertinent factors on whether I can interact with someone across the table. Their social skills being the first. What colour their little men are painted isn't really that much of a bother.

 

Half of this thread just seems to be moaning for the sake of moaning.

[Dingareth]

It's such a non issue though, as long as the army is WYSIWYG.

 

There's far more pertinent factors on whether I can interact with someone across the table. Their social skills being the first. What colour their little men are painted isn't really that much of a bother.

 

Half of this thread just seems to be moaning for the sake of moaning.

 

Yep. Can't stress enough about how right you are, sir. Whether or not a game is enjoyable comes down to the player, not the army.

[gabrionus1]

argh... I say one thing and people's bristles get up! and then when I say my side...I'm moaning.

I see your point. and I mostly agree with them...but I also think my points have merit as well.

[SamaNagol]

Sir, you didn't start this thread nor did you make half of the posts in it.

[gabrionus1]

good point =)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It's such a non issue though, as long as the army is WYSIWYG.

 

There's far more pertinent factors on whether I can interact with someone across the table. Their social skills being the first. What colour their little men are painted isn't really that much of a bother.

 

Half of this thread just seems to be moaning for the sake of moaning.

 

Yep. Can't stress enough about how right you are, sir. Whether or not a game is enjoyable comes down to the player, not the army.

 

I played Dingareth's BA counts as IW army at BoLScon this summer. Never had any issues with it at all. Pretty much knew exactly what was going on as soon as I showed up to the table. :P

 

G ^_^

[Zealadin]

Codex hopping without any effort on your army is lame, of course.

 

But there seems to be a large amount of hate that people are using a codex which someone else considers their own, and doesn't want to share.

Considering how fluid the 'lore/fluff' between armies is becoming between editions/codex releases its kind of silly to be elitest about people using a codex which is balanced with the new edition.

I mean alot of people simply don't have an army that is current, or even that competitive due to GWS being very slow to release updates.

 

Space Marines suffer the most because they are basically all the same at the end of the day, and its very easy to just count-as.

Its also worth noting that many armies can be appropriately feilded much more effectively with the new codexes, than with the old. I do have to laugh when I see people saying "yes you can make that count as, but since your a chaos chapter you don't get sang priests or SS".

Funny because the 40k universe is pretty diverse, and it wouldn't suprise me that the squad of chaos marines didn't just ambush and slaughter a group of space marines for their SS, or capture a Sang Priest in order to figure out how he gives FNP/FC and in doing so steal the power.

Yes its cool if someone goes really fluffy and avoids these choices, but trying to hamstring someone on the grounds of fluff so you can have an easier game is as lame if not lamer than a count as army still painted its previous colour and totally lacking jump packs while being a full DOA force.

 

I'm very slowly working on a 'count-as' BA army, but using Eldar models, and am trying to maintain it as 100% WYSIWYG. Its DOA and Assault Squads are represented by Striking Scorpions with swooping hawk wings (JPs), a chainsword and pistol, meltaguns (or fusion guns the eldar equivalent), and using the standard exarchs power claw as a power fist.

Its a labour of love, and costs over $200 per squad of 10.

I have all my own lore for the Kael Din, or Blood Guardians, explaining why they should be able to use the BA rules, and how everything fits.

That being said the most common response when I talk about my project is scepticism, or downright dissapproval. People don't like Space Marine armies that much and want people to play something else.

 

The reason I'm doing it? I love the Eldar race, it was my first 40k army over 10 years ago, it just doesn't suit my playstyle however, and I get no happiness trying to struggle against the way I want to play. Its also a great conversion opportunity, and honestly I'm more a hobbyist than a player.

 

I've always been pretty scornful of the people incapable of making up their own chapter, lore or paintscheme, and personally think that it would be cooler if codexes where a set of rules that could be attributed to any army as long as WYSIWYG is met, currently SM are practically half the codexes available, and of the other half alot are pretty outdated, or VERY limited with how they can be played.

I also can't stomach Space Marine models otherwise I'd be spending ALOT less and just playing a normal Blood Angels army since I find the rules and playstyle the most fun and rewarding.

 

Of course I was waiting for the 'amazing' stormraven model to appear to reassess playing a proper BA army, but looking at it now its about the ugliest model ever released.

[SamaNagol]

I absolutely love it when I see a Marine chapter across the table from me that I have never seen before. If someone has bothered to go into the lore and craft their own background for some obscure Chapter then that is bloomin brilliant. And I have zero qualms with them using whatever codex they like that week.

[gabrionus1]

Sounds Awesome Zealadin! Show us Pics!

[gabrionus1]

delete =)