I need an age reference...

[Stormshrug]

And, on your point, it's also worth noting that Ragnar's a pretty qualified warrior by that point (he goes on to kill like 10 guys single-handedly in the following battle before being struck down by a future packmate).

 

-Stormshrug

[Valerian]

Unfortunately, as with may fluff issues, GW has failed to maintain any consistency with this. Especially when you consider the womanizing Lukas, etc., whose exploits really don't make much sense for a young prepubescent lad, regardless of his culture. Without puberty, he wouldn't have the sexual development to have the ability, really.

 

Here is the thing, unless you are talking about the semi-transformation of adults to quasi-Space Marines that occurred back in the Great Hunt (when Russ' Axemen and El Johnson's Knights were allowed to try to join the Legions) the activation of the various geneseed implants works in concert with the hormonal surge of male puberty. If a boy is too far along in his human development and maturity it would simply be "too late" for the process to work. I've got a picture around here somewhere that showed that the first implant had to be done between 12-14 years of age. The last implant (the Black Carapace) would go in between 16-18 years of age.

 

Based on all of the old background material on this issue, and ignoring those huge discrepancies, I'd say the Wolf Priest are eyeballing the young lads in the tribal "Wolfbrother Packs" (original name from Rogue Trader era White Dwarf magazines and 2nd Edition codex) who fight together at about 10-12 years of age.

 

Even without specific details, it's very strong evidence that, in fact, Aspirants can be older than 12.

 

-Stormshrug

 

thats something i dont contradictory, i said asprant should not be older than 12 yo, not that te aspirants cant be older

 

Fair enough.

 

We've always seen the Codex Astartes as more of a set of "guidelines" than actual rules 'round these parts, I suppose.

 

-Stormshrug

 

Stormshrug, it isn't a following the Codex Astartes issue, it is a Biology/Genetics issue.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Grimtooth]

Unfortunately, as with may fluff issues, GW has failed to maintain any consistency with this. Especially when you consider the womanizing Lukas, etc., whose exploits really don't make much sense for a young prepubescent lad, regardless of his culture. Without puberty, he wouldn't have the sexual development to have the ability, really.

 

Here is the thing, unless you are talking about the semi-transformation of adults to quasi-Space Marines that occurred back in the Great Hunt (when Russ' Axemen and El Johnson's Knights were allowed to try to join the Legions) the activation of the various geneseed implants works in concert with the hormonal surge of male puberty. If a boy is too far along in his human development and maturity it would simply be "too late" for the process to work. I've got a picture around here somewhere that showed that the first implant had to be done between 12-14 years of age. The last implant (the Black Carapace) would go in between 16-18 years of age.

 

Based on all of the old background material on this issue, and ignoring those huge discrepancies, I'd say the Wolf Priest are eyeballing the young lads in the tribal "Wolfbrother Packs" (original name from Rogue Trader era White Dwarf magazines and 2nd Edition codex) who fight together at about 10-12 years of age.

 

Even without specific details, it's very strong evidence that, in fact, Aspirants can be older than 12.

 

-Stormshrug

 

thats something i dont contradictory, i said asprant should not be older than 12 yo, not that te aspirants cant be older

 

Fair enough.

 

We've always seen the Codex Astartes as more of a set of "guidelines" than actual rules 'round these parts, I suppose.

 

-Stormshrug

 

Stormshrug, it isn't a following the Codex Astartes issue, it is a Biology/Genetics issue.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

 

Do we have an explanation for Arjac then?

[Valerian]

Do we have an explanation for Arjac then?

 

Like I said, there have been a ton of inconsistencies regarding this issue in the last few editions of the game. It seems like recent writers forget some fairly major background material issues as they produce new work (for example giving Canis Wolfborn nearly the exact same fluff as Russ himself, ;)?).

 

Not only is age a point of issue with Arjac, the whole scenario in his background material that describes him as being a blacksmith working the lava forces with his fellow "Iron Priests". I think the story is trying to describe the event that got him noticed enough to be inducted into the Space Wolves, but why the use of the term Iron Priest when simply describing a group of a Fenrisian tribe's blacksmiths?

 

Oh well, you just have to take what you like, and disregard the stupid stuff when it comes to the fluff.

 

V

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Well...the transition described in the fluff was for Arjac going from Iron Priest to Wolf Guard. He was allready a Space Marine at that point, At least I am fairly sure the Iron Priests are implanted with the geneseed.

 

Here is an interesting Idea for you all to consider. What if the mutations in the Canis Helix,comes from the issues of puberty. After all,the only time we did a Codex Astartes founding, IE take 1000 barely teenagers and turn them into Space Marines...almost every member suffered from genetic mutations From the Canis Helix,and devolved into werewolves essentially. Now,If the Space Wolves have allways (and there is no fluff to say otherwise) chosen their members based on the highest ability which would run counter to the idea of taking them as almost teenagers. Imagine if the Wulven symptoms are related to how closely implantation followed puberty,IE the closer to puberty the crazier the Helix gets. Maybe the ancient Wolf Priests realized the connection,and said "Ya know what...bugger this for a lark,we are going to take the strongest willed warriors instead of teenagers and see how that works out!"

 

Just an idle thought,but an interesting one.

[Icewolf]

I think another point to consider is how long a fenrisian year is compared to a standard Terran year, now I think a fenrisian year is longer so boys at age 12 being taken to become wolves would not be that bad as they would be more developed than a terran boy of the same age.

 

Icewolf

[hmk17]

Stormshrug, it isn't a following the Codex Astartes issue, it is a Biology/Genetics issue.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

 

Not really, as the codex Astartes emphasizes tactics even to the planning and creation of space marine chapters. Medicae know the limits of the modification process on human physiology. The Codex Astartes uses that knowledge in combination with other information to select those that would best receive the modifications, training, and indoctrination. The older a human gets, the more settled he becomes. While Humans reach procreative maturity quickly, their anatomy does not really settle down until their very late 20's. There, it stabilizes briefly before starting to degrade. Also, his mental processes and psychology become to get fixed as well. While, those can be re-shaped more easily than his anatomy, it still takes extra time and effort to tear down and rebuild. Thus pubescent humans are the target selection in order to maximize efficiency in recruitment turnover.

 

 

Compare the pre-heresy Dark Angels to the pre-heresy Space Wolves.

 

When presented with the biological obstacles of becoming Astartes at an advanced age, the members of The Order looked for other means of keeping their best in the game. They chose augmentative surgeries as a means of bridging the physical gap between themselves and those they would command.

 

 

Russ' huscarls were told by the Emperor, himself, that the Astartes modification would probably kill them. Yet, out of loyalty and pride, they still demanded the chance to join their lord. Sure enough, many did die. However, enough survived to astonish the Emperor. Those that survived became the 13th Company. They were full Astartes.

 

 

While biology plays a small role, it is a part of the Codex Astartes umbrella on why Chapters make their selections.

 

Since the Space Wolves do not follow said Codex, they are free to make "non-standard" choices to all aspects of recruitment.

 

 

That being said, Ragnar seemed to be about 15ish. Maybe pushing 17 at most. Strybjorn, though, seemed to be 17-20 when they fought and were chosen.

 

I cannot recall how long they spent at Russveik, but it was certainly 2-3 years before they ever went to The Fang. Then the stuff in the Fang seems to be kinda montage, so you lose track of time.

 

The third book gives a slight hint at the passage of time. It seems that its been about 50 years since Ragnar was chosen.

[Valerian]

Well...the transition described in the fluff was for Arjac going from Iron Priest to Wolf Guard. He was allready a Space Marine at that point.

 

 

Yes, I thought that too when I first read it, but after reading it again I thought it was trying to describe him as a human who caught the attention of Marines and was given to the Wolf Priests, etc. Reading through it again, I am not so sure. I was probably correct in my first interpretation, and a host of Iron Priests probably were away from the Fang working at natural lava forges (why were they called the "brotherhood of the Iron Isles?).

 

At least I am fairly sure the Iron Priests are implanted with the geneseed.

 

Oh yes, they are definitely full Marines.

 

 

 

V

[Valerian]

Well...the transition described in the fluff was for Arjac going from Iron Priest to Wolf Guard. He was allready a Space Marine at that point.

 

 

Yes, I thought that too when I first read it, but after reading it again I thought it was trying to describe him as a human who caught the attention of Marines and was given to the Wolf Priests, etc. Reading through it again, I am not so sure. I was probably correct in my first interpretation, and a host of Iron Priests probably were away from the Fang working at natural lava forges (why were they called the "brotherhood of the Iron Isles?).

 

At least I am fairly sure the Iron Priests are implanted with the geneseed.

 

Oh yes, they are definitely full Marines.

 

I think another point to consider is how long a fenrisian year is compared to a standard Terran year, now I think a fenrisian year is longer so boys at age 12 being taken to become wolves would not be that bad as they would be more developed than a terran boy of the same age.

 

All passage of time in 40k is given in the standard "Terran Year" so when we are talking about a 12 year old boy, it is the same for everyone across the galaxy. This was established as an Imperium-wide standard to prevent confusion.

 

 

V