Matt Ward strikes again!

[Wolf Lord Fenrir]

The consensus we're moving towards is that the new Blood Angels codex is crap.

 

That's not the concensus I'm seeing.

 

I agree. This bit of B&C seems to think it's crap, but a lot of others seem to consider the book one of the strongest in the game.

[Terrahawk]

I agree. This bit of B&C seems to think it's crap, but a lot of others seem to consider the book one of the strongest in the game.

 

I don't think that is necessarily true. ^_^

 

As far as I know, the majority of BA players around these parts really enjoy the new 'dex. As always it's only the vocal few that are making a big deal out of things. But that's the Internets for you.

[Zanrian]

I agree. This bit of B&C seems to think it's crap, but a lot of others seem to consider the book one of the strongest in the game.

 

I don't think that is necessarily true. :lol:

 

As far as I know, the majority of BA players around these parts really enjoy the new 'dex. As always it's only the vocal few that are making a big deal out of things. But that's the Internets for you.

 

 

Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded. (No offence to people who compete in the S.O.) :lol:

GW have always suffered from the "Oh-no-new-codex-kicks-everyone-else's-butt" effect. It's been like that since 2nd edition and I would guess that we will see it in 9th edition too. My problem with Matt Ward and the design team in general is that the feeling of the rules and dexes are made for one and one reason only...getting us to buy more and more miniatures. Sure the rules have been stream lined more to get the game going more smoothly. But I still get the feeling of it loosing the magic and wonder. (Perhaps I'm just getting too old and no longer am a young kid)

 

edited to put some smilies

[Brother Yorei]

my biggest issue with the new DC is the fact that chaplins cannot control them like they used to be able to.

[douchie]

I don't think the new dex is crap by any stretch of the imgination, its just that some of the blatant inconsistancies make me want to punch a baby goat in the neck!!!

 

Perhaps it's because most of the dex is quite strong, that these little things bug me so much! if it was all poor or average then i'd just get on with it. remember the PDF years?

[Morticon]

Crynn - with all your crying about Matt Ward being an idiot etc, you havent shown yourself in a much greater light.

Posting garbage like that has just earned you a warning.

 

 

This is an in thread warning to everyone to keep it objective, keep it constructive and not let it devolve into simple trolling and mud flinging.

 

 

Feel free to vent your frustrations in an adult, considerate and informative way, please.

 

Also remember Matt Ward is part of a design TEAM. He is not solely responsible for the dex.

If you have to vent try add something constructive to your post too please.

 

-Mort.

 

The consensus we're moving towards is that the new Blood Angels codex is crap.

 

That's not the concensus I'm seeing.

 

Yup yup. Not by a LONG shot.

[RedSaint]

That's not the concensus I'm seeing.

That is the consensus that is building. What is so interesting is that we are doing it by ganging up on Matt Ward. So we will see how this progress from here.

 

It will probably take us longer to build the consensus because of the different ways the Codex allows us to play Blood Angels, but the end result will be the same.

 

You will think - Well maybe I should try this or that, and then you will test it, and then you will change again, and every time you will see that the Codex does not allow you to compete with Orks, Nids & IG on the same footing.

 

The force may still be strong at the moment because WOW look at all the shiny stuff - surely it must be a strong Codex. More players will concede as we move forward and they face the truth - Mat Ward will be blamed.

 

People in this thread are doing it already.

[RedSaint]

Yup yup. Not by a LONG shot.

 

Mort, you play in South Africa - right?

Are you going to Nationals?

We will see how you do, and if you report that WOW you realy felt like you were in a position to compete against IG, Nids & Orks then realy, I dont know what I'm talking about and will appologize.

 

Why dont you restore my faith in this Codex by winning as many IG, Nids & Ork armies you get a chance to play against in that tournament?

[Morticon]

People in this thread that are tossing "blame" about are the most vocal.

Internet samples are the worst, worst possible place to make any assumptions. Because its only ever the people that are upset that will vent and people that are happy, cant be bothered to argue against the venting people.

 

Its why GW dont take the internet into consideration for any aspect of feedback - why sift through the ragings of angry fans, the vocal majority of which will never be satisfied?

 

For every person that is upset or unhappy with the new codex, I am SURE there are bucket loads more, more than happy with the change from the old PDF.

[daboarder]

redsaint what nid armies are you talking about? is it a specific build? perhaps we could help you change you're list to improve it.

[liberate_tutame]

That is the consensus that is building...

People in this thread are doing it already.

 

No RedSaint, it isn't. What's happened is that the shock and awe crowd have realised that the codex is probably one of the best balanced codex's around. I say that because following the furor over "OMG, DEEP STRIKING LAND RAIDERS" and "OMG SANGUINOR/MEPHISTON IS BROKEN", "OMG STORMRAVEN/LIBRARIAN FURIOSO" what we have is a codex from which you can build a powerful list that can take on just about any other lists and win. The people who like to bandwagon and use broken lists for tounaments have realised there is army or combo in the Blood Angels codex where they could walk to victory, and so they've turned on it.

Yes there is no Leafblower list from this codex, yes there is no Nobs biker list from this codex. That's a good thing, right? You know, that whole idea of setting your models up on the table and both armies have a decent chance of winning?

 

The only problems I've seen from the codex are where they should have inserted some sort of control unit (Lemartes would have been perfect for this, even if control was only 50% of the time) for the DC.

 

Apart from that it is a great codex that the design team made, with tons of viable options (I'm trying out a Frag cannon furioso for the first time tomorrow, and I have yet to try the Stormraven). And I'll be happy to play with it for the next few years.

[Morticon]

Yup yup. Not by a LONG shot.

 

Mort, you play in South Africa - right?

Are you going to Nationals?

We will see how you do, and if you report that WOW you realy felt like you were in a position to compete against IG, Nids & Orks then realy, I dont know what I'm talking about and will appologize.

 

Why dont you restore my faith in this Codex by winning as many IG, Nids & Ork armies you get a chance to play against in that tournament?

 

 

Regardless of outcome there would be no need to apologise mate. The arguement of good or bad codex in my mind is not (or at least shouldnt be- from a hobby perspective) based on competitiveness alone.

 

Those armies are VERY tough. And i'm under no illusion that they are mad hard.

If i do make it to the Nats. i'll just have to see how they boys in red fair.

[Whitefireinferno]

And woah what you mentioned Nids being epicly strong? I have not seen this this edition oh you feild doom hoping it will live... right, IG yeah they are still UBER good and Nob bikers are hard but really do fall over quite easily and cost a arm a leg and half your manbits to feild thus the rest of the list suffers and to be frank I would say that we are on par with the wolves they might even have a slight edge over our codex but they have had quite a bit more time to work the kinks out of their codex.

 

So the general Consensus is our codex is on level with 5th ed stronger than some not as strong as others. So either you are talking floogledyboogledy due to I appear everywhere apart from the Community boards and have yet to find people spouting that the BA dex is weak and crappy, so either provide links or it did'nt happen.

 

And I am about on ALOT of the other main webforums to do with 40k and have not seen these topics their either and about the only place I have seen anything remotely like it would be on /TG/ and that speaks for itsself so yeah I will wait for these links where everybody says our codex is weak and crappy.

 

Cheers for the fun convo

 

--WFI--

[Wildfire]

Well, RedSaint, perhaps I should be more clear in my opinion. I don't feel that the current BA 'dex is below average in terms of playability or power. I think, in fact, that it is pretty competative. I think there are much worse recent codexes out there. The recent codexes written by JJ, for instance, play extremely blandly and are generally in the bottom tier.

 

The problems I have with Matt Ward is the same problem I have with GW in general: he does not appear to be serious 40k player. I have not read the current WD. But if some of those who have are correct, he apparently is not fully aware of how the rules work. Further, the mistakes he made were not corrected before print. How can you write products for a game when you don't fully understand how to play? And as I said before, this is in no way limited to Matt Ward. This issue occurs across the board, I only single him out because this thread was started over a specific article he wrote.

 

You should be careful drawing conclusions from a thread started to complain about something. The direction of the conversation is already set, and you'll likely false statistics from it.

[Morticon]

Guys, firstly and in Red Saint's defense- its important to note that metagame game differs VASTLY depending on where you play. Certain builds dominate in certain areas and certain players drift to certain builds, certain lists and certain armies. This means that something we play in our area could possibly beat the top list in their area, yet due to the metagame there, that build is not viable against other lists.

 

In his experience with BA he may have seen them get mashed or at least every other army get mashed by the armies he has noted. People will make conclusions based on what they have empirical evidence for. If you go to every tournament you have available, only to see BA get stomped, that may change your view. Even if 1000 other internet people like myself and whoever, say otherwise.

Its not going to change your personal experience.

 

That being said, and on the other side of that coin, we shouldnt make too firm a conclusion based on our experiences alone. All it takes is for someone with what appears to be a sub-par list to walk in and start pulling upsets.

 

A little more empathy lads on both sides of the fence and we can see where the other side is coming from.

[Jarakin]

Very sensible words Mort! From what I've seen of these forums people are generally very helpful if they have problems with their lists - so I'd suggest if that's the case with Red Saint, it might be a good idea to make a post stating specific problems so people can offer constructive advice. I know people are quick to decry GW and their design team, although I'm brand new to the scene, from what I've heard and observed, 5th ed ruleset and codices are generally addressing alot of old issues (despite some general bloopers)?

[daboarder]

Thats pretty much what happened to the guard dex, it was considered fairly well off when it first came out but the darkwynn was so successful with that damn alpha strike list and now its really approaching the level of fantasy deamons. As for the different areas that is very true mort hence my offer to help red create a more succueeful list based upon what he currently has acces too adn what his opponents regularly play.

[Pcm979]

Thats pretty much what happened to the guard dex, it was considered fairly well off when it first came out but the darkwynn was so successful with that damn alpha strike list and now its really approaching the level of fantasy deamons.

Sorry in advance for the potential :cuss , but what's this about? I don't play Guard.

[Walter Payton]

Thats pretty much what happened to the guard dex, it was considered fairly well off when it first came out but the darkwynn was so successful with that damn alpha strike list and now its really approaching the level of fantasy deamons.

Sorry in advance for the potential :to: , but what's this about? I don't play Guard.

 

Well, I heard that playing Fantasy Daemons with any Army Book more than a year old is like charging an Imperator Titan armed with a pineapple. Evidently, people think the Hammer of the Emperor will have a similar effect. I disagree, but that is another forum.

[RedSaint]

Guys, firstly and in Red Saint's defense- its important to note that metagame game differs VASTLY depending on where you play. Certain builds dominate in certain areas and certain players drift to certain builds, certain lists and certain armies. This means that something we play in our area could possibly beat the top list in their area, yet due to the metagame there, that build is not viable against other lists.

 

A little more empathy lads on both sides of the fence and we can see where the other side is coming from.

 

Thank you Mort. I'm feeling a bit alone out here. No need to kill the messenger.

 

And thank you to every-one who wants to assist with list building. As far as list building goes, I have a sizable BA force already and also, I'm lucky in a way in that, if I need any unit I can just go out and buy it, so do not have to work with what I currently have, I can change it quite easily.

 

So, give me a list that can successfully compete with Orks, Nids & IG and I will build it. Note that I did not say "win". All I want to have is an army that makes me feel that I have a chance. This is in my opinion all that 40K players realy want - a platform that will make them competitive.

 

Alas, I do not think that the designers gave us that.

 

And looking into the future - how competitive will we be when the next couple of books see the light of the Emperor? We're sub-par already, and this is not what I said - others on this thread said it.

 

You know, its one thing to loose a game or two - quite another if you felt like someone going to a gun fight with a knife.

 

But I think I've said my piece, so I will now go away.

[Whitefireinferno]

Okay RedSaint Start a new topic and we can help you with your list and the like since this thread is heading into murky waters of off topicness.

so yeah start a topic and give a breif rundown of the lists you face off since I am guessing its IG leafblower ,nob bikers? and havent a clue games with bugs in my part of the world are gone by turn 5 but yeah sorry for going off kilter earlier just the whole embodiement of the chapter and such.

 

But also to try get this back on topic Matt started out with the LOTR game didnt he? If so that could be why some of his codex are a little off not been fully engulfed in the 40k lore and such.

[Malus the Destroyer]

I miss using Death Company. Lack of control is my only gripe with this book that is legitimate. Only other negative thing I can say which is not legitimate is that, I feel we are diverse enough to have an extreme amount of options, plays styles, and meta-game. I've found great synergy between different combinations of units, as well as an easy ability to unit spam if I so desired.

I can play a red tide, Red Skies, rolling armour company, my own Alpha Strike, hero-hammer, AD-Mech Dread zerg, super mobile dakka dakka dakka, etc etc.

Alot I've played around with, somethings work well, others situational. Over all, the book allows a freedom of playstyles, and enjoyable at that. Are we the hands down best assault army out there bar none? No, we are marines. We are better than other marines at it, and better than most, but not the best. But we are still Marines, which means we are still pretty damn good at other things while being pretty good at assault.

I believe the inner strength of the book itself, at the core, is the options to not be a static 1 playstyle 1 build army. We can field it how we want, and be pretty good at it. And that carries a lot of weight in my opinion.

[JamesI]

I miss using Death Company. Lack of control is my only gripe with this book that is legitimate. Only other negative thing I can say which is not legitimate is that, I feel we are diverse enough to have an extreme amount of options, plays styles, and meta-game. I've found great synergy between different combinations of units, as well as an easy ability to unit spam if I so desired.

I can play a red tide, Red Skies, rolling armour company, my own Alpha Strike, hero-hammer, AD-Mech Dread zerg, super mobile dakka dakka dakka, etc etc.

Alot I've played around with, somethings work well, others situational. Over all, the book allows a freedom of playstyles, and enjoyable at that. Are we the hands down best assault army out there bar none? No, we are marines. We are better than other marines at it, and better than most, but not the best. But we are still Marines, which means we are still pretty damn good at other things while being pretty good at assault.

I believe the inner strength of the book itself, at the core, is the options to not be a static 1 playstyle 1 build army. We can field it how we want, and be pretty good at it. And that carries a lot of weight in my opinion.

Well said, Malus.

[Brother_Dan'l]

I miss using Death Company. Lack of control is my only gripe with this book that is legitimate. Only other negative thing I can say which is not legitimate is that, I feel we are diverse enough to have an extreme amount of options, plays styles, and meta-game. I've found great synergy between different combinations of units, as well as an easy ability to unit spam if I so desired.

I can play a red tide, Red Skies, rolling armour company, my own Alpha Strike, hero-hammer, AD-Mech Dread zerg, super mobile dakka dakka dakka, etc etc.

Alot I've played around with, somethings work well, others situational. Over all, the book allows a freedom of playstyles, and enjoyable at that. Are we the hands down best assault army out there bar none? No, we are marines. We are better than other marines at it, and better than most, but not the best. But we are still Marines, which means we are still pretty damn good at other things while being pretty good at assault.

I believe the inner strength of the book itself, at the core, is the options to not be a static 1 playstyle 1 build army. We can field it how we want, and be pretty good at it. And that carries a lot of weight in my opinion.

I agree. I've won and I've lost using the new Codex. And every single time I've enjoyed the way the army works immensely. Currently I'm utterly fixated on making a Stormraven army work. But I'm also starting to think about dropping the SR for other things. And the best part is I've got a ridiculous number of options.

 

Are there things wrong with the Codex and some made worse by Ward's article? :huh: yes. But I can't remember the last WD article I read that didn't have some morsel of stupid prominently displayed. But how happy will we all be if the Chapter Banner really does have a 6" bubble? Is it as "abusable" as the Wolves or Nids? Not even close. But I really haven't seen any armies that my usually all comers type list can't handle. Heck, I got abused (so horribly that I won't go into it) last night by a Tau army that if I had played smarter, and the dice had been kinder, I should have wiped the floor with. But I've also tabled opponents by the end of turn 3.

[Jarakin]

I agree. I've won and I've lost using the new Codex. And every single time I've enjoyed the way the army works immensely. Currently I'm utterly fixated on making a Stormraven army work. But I'm also starting to think about dropping the SR for other things. And the best part is I've got a ridiculous number of options.

 

Are there things wrong with the Codex and some made worse by Ward's article? :huh: yes. But I can't remember the last WD article I read that didn't have some morsel of stupid prominently displayed. But how happy will we all be if the Chapter Banner really does have a 6" bubble? Is it as "abusable" as the Wolves or Nids? Not even close. But I really haven't seen any armies that my usually all comers type list can't handle. Heck, I got abused (so horribly that I won't go into it) last night by a Tau army that if I had played smarter, and the dice had been kinder, I should have wiped the floor with. But I've also tabled opponents by the end of turn 3.

 

Lets face it mate... any army is susceptible to bad dice rolls, our job is just to mitigate disaster as much as possible with a strong list! ;)