Charge the Daemons

[Azza007]

Hey just wondering what works best against Daemons as facing a 1000pt Daemon army tomorrow (possibly 1500 if I can up it), what have you guys found to work? I believe he likes to use all 4 powers of Chaos if he can. I have 30+ GH to choose from, 20+ BC, Termies, LF, Dread, Predator Annihilator, Typhoon, Scouts, 2 RP and possibly 2 Drop Pods if I can finish building them in time. All advice appreciated and will post exactly what I have later on when I have more time. Cheers.

[Xeenos]

You got enough for 2000 points easily.

 

Fun note, your BC work as GH just fine, given GH have bp and cc.. when i do my packs im thinking of going to do one with bolters, one with BP/CC, one with Bolter/CC.. just mixing up to help ID packs easily. Anyway, point being, if your like me and dont like BC, you can field 50 GH's!

 

For 1500 id field 3 packs of GH for sure, loadout of your choosing..

Id take both your RP for sure, if you take the Tempest's Wrath on one, or both, it gives you a nice big fat area of the map that he wont likly want to bring demons in on. Jaws of the World Wolf is great vs Nurgle whom i belive is low ini. Murderous Hurricane is also one i personally feel is amazing, i dont think demons get any sort of assault nades, so you cast that on his blood letters, then simply stand there and rapid fire them, if they charge you, you strike first, and asuming you make your Counter Charge roll, you get +1 attack, too.

 

Id not bother with the drop pods, the scouts wont likly be to effective eather, i dont know demons, but i dont think they have much that just sits back and shoots, so they wouldnt be better then just another grey hunter pack holding up your front lines.

 

Long Fangs would do well in this, and all the better if you throw a pack leader with cyclone in there, also adding the termie pack leaders to your hunters as well.

 

After that its really just frosting on the cake, if you even have points left. I dont belive they do much in the way of shooting, so let em come to you, shoot the ;) out of them, make them charge you in difficult terrain for the extra attacks.

 

The only issue id forsee is a lack of a Monster killer, he will likly have a Demon Prince or two, and likly a Greater Demon or two. I would take Arjac, personally. He will pop any IC or MC like a zit. Throw him into a Grey Hunter pack with a Wolf Standard, this is a must. Use that standard when you want to watch a Demon Prince of Greater Demon drop in one round. 5 attacks on the counter/counter charge, str 10, thunderhammer, reroll failed rolls to hit, and if you use the Standard he can now reroll failed rolls to wound or anything else for that matter. Oh did i mention he isnt a IC, so he can not be picked out of the pack? Yup.

 

Ulric the Slayer might be useful, too, given the same hero killing type, but far less useful, imo.

 

Oh and wolf tails will likly be full of win on your two rune priests, if you field them.. demons sound like they would have some nasty magic, giving both your priests tails gives you the ablity to stop their spell with your staff, or staves if their both in range, and if that fails, and he hits the pack that your priest is in, you get the 5+ to ignore it anyway.

[Ail'Slath'Sleresh]

If facing khorne and slaanesh they die easily to fire but you must focus fire the correct units. It can get tough playing against daemons but dont take the bait by firing all weapons at his plaguebearer icon squad. Take out what will hurt you the most! Horrors are the ranged units of daemons with an 18" range assault 3 weapon and they pack a 4+ invul save to go along with it. But it is still 4+ and at T3 along with daemonettes you can drown them in fire easily. If your in cover than you'll hit first anyway in combat except against slaanesh units so if they are in close and you are scared of a soulgrinder... I'd shoot up the daemonettes because they are nasty on charges into cover! But again... a daemons weakness is but a simple bolter round ;) Dont make hunting parties and castle your troops to give support to one another... also keep some armor between you and the daemons that way they will have juicy targets to get distracted by. If they try to avoid your armor if they do it will only make them go out of their way to reach their desired target giving you hopefully another round of fire! Have fun!

[Requiem of the Wolf]

If facing khorne and slaanesh they die easily to fire but you must focus fire the correct units. It can get tough playing against daemons but dont take the bait by firing all weapons at his plaguebearer icon squad. Take out what will hurt you the most! Horrors are the ranged units of daemons with an 18" range assault 3 weapon and they pack a 4+ invul save to go along with it. But it is still 4+ and at T3 along with daemonettes you can drown them in fire easily. If your in cover than you'll hit first anyway in combat except against slaanesh units so if they are in close and you are scared of a soulgrinder... I'd shoot up the daemonettes because they are nasty on charges into cover! But again... a daemons weakness is but a simple bolter round :ph34r: Dont make hunting parties and castle your troops to give support to one another... also keep some armor between you and the daemons that way they will have juicy targets to get distracted by. If they try to avoid your armor if they do it will only make them go out of their way to reach their desired target giving you hopefully another round of fire! Have fun!

Don't have any specific advice,and the general advice is covered allready. The RP will wound on a 2+ in CC against Demons so that is also something to remember. Murderous hurricane,Tempest's wrath are your friends in this fight. I would have one of those two powers as a second power on the second rune priest. Or field Njal and have both of them as backups. Heavy bolters and Missile launchers make a good combo for your long fangs in this fight. Possibly with a second set having missile launchers and Lascannons in case you have to deal with any heavy targets.

 

Other then that,use a ton of Grey hunters. They are line troops for a reason,because they can stand up to any other army out there and do fairly decent.

[GeoWolf]

One gigantic problem when facing against daemons: they do NOT use psychic powers! Everything they have are Gifts, as noted on Pg. 73 of Codex CD. You will not be able to shut down their powers, nor will Wolf Tails work. It is one of the strengths of the daemons army. :)

 

That said, they cannot shut down your powers either. Tempests Wrath can mess with a daemon army like nothing else. Murderous Hurricane turns Khorne and Slaaneshi troops into pushovers. JotWW is the bedtime fear of all Nurgle daemons and Living Lightning is always welcome.

 

Shouldn't Drop Pod, usually a waste. Especially if you get first turn, then it really is pointless. ;)

 

Note that while RP can bring alot to the table, they are only so-so in CC. Be prepared for CC, think smart and don't leave units alone. Daemons act like the Eldar in this respect, picking your army apart as you hand pieces out. Make him walk through bolter shells to do anything. Not to mention armor. Dreads and tanks can be difficult for daemons to deal with if they are not expecting them. GD, Soulgrinders and DP are the heavy hitters of the army (MCs), and can tear tanks apart with ease. However, Breath of Chaos Glances on 4+, Deathstrike(khorne) is Str7, Bolt of Tzeentch is Str 8 AP1, and Slaaneshi have a chance to rend. They can deal with armor, but they have to pack it first.

 

The tried and true saying works, Shoot the stuff that pokes you and poke the stuff that shoots you. :D

 

I've played both with and against Daemons quite a few times, and either way its fun but not easy. With everything having Invulns and being fearless, they can hang with the best.

 

Good luck, have fun, and let us know how it goes! Ale's waiting for your return! For Russ! :rolleyes:

[Azza007]

If I remember correctly he said his HQ of choice was going to be a Skulltaker on Juggernut with a unit of Bloodcrushers in support. That is the one thing I can remember with a high degree of certainty.

[Branek Icefang]

If I remember correctly he said his HQ of choice was going to be a Skulltaker on Juggernut with a unit of Bloodcrushers in support. That is the one thing I can remember with a high degree of certainty.

 

DO NOT LET SKULLTAKER CHARGE!

 

He insta-kills all models he attacks on a 4+ roll to hit. If you can't avoid him, at least rob him of the charge.

 

Skulltaker and a unit of Bloodcrushers is a royal pain, they are all extremely tough, extremely hard hitting but extremely pricey if he takes more than a few Bloodcrushers.

 

Even at 1000, don't underestimate the amount of bodies a Daemon Army can put down. Running without the Heavy Hitting units, well thats a misnomer, most Daemon units can hit fairly hard, but if he doesnt take a Daemon Prince, Soul Grinder or Greater Daemon, he can easily get 50 models, and thats with taking an elite unit.

 

If he doesn't take an elite unit. He's an idiot. Okay I'm joking. But Daemon Elites are the best things the army has, especially flamers of Tzeentch. Insta-wound on a 4+ flamer template that moves like jump infantry? Yikes. Always be wary of his elites and remember how each is countered.

 

These apply to all the gods units in general.

 

Tzeentch - Have some serious firepower they can put down, but aren't very strong in CC. Be wary as they have a better Invulnerable save than the rest of the army.

 

Slaanesh - Think of them as the hurty, rendy, stabby plague. BUt fortunately for you, fragile as all hell. T3 or T4 across the board and nothing bar the Greater Daemon breaks a 5+ invulnerable.

 

Khorne - Fairly durable, and scary as all hell on the charge. Base unit has a Power Weapon and Furious Charge, so try to charge them rather than be charged.

 

Nurgle - Tough. No, I don't think you understand me. TOUGH! T5, 5+ Invulneralbe and Feel No Pain. They are the Daemon army's objective holders, but aren't able to do too much damage. Be wary as they have poisoned weapons, but still, best not to woory about their damage output too much.

 

It really is just a matter of picking your fights with a daemon army. Concentrate fire to whittle down his units, but if you can bring a unit down to a few models and then charge them, do so with 1 unit while the other targets another unit. They hit hard overall, but aren't as great at taking the hit.

[GeoWolf]

Skulltaker is a nasty piece of business normally, but mounting him on a Juggernaut is just wrong. Str5 T5 W3 and A5 is frightening. Plus he has a power wpn, Rends on 4+, inflicts Instant Death and has furious charge, making him Str6 I6. CC is always a risky prospect, even Khârn can only beat him by getting the charge off. ;)

 

But there is more to despair about, he gets a 2+ Invuln against wounds caused by Psychic Powers. However, it's not all doom and gloom. He only gets his 2+ against WOUNDS, not the power itself, so while LL isn't the best to launch at him, TW and MH can still mess up his day. Note that he gets saves verses the wounds of MH, but is still subject to the terrain effects, and as he has no grenades, will fight at I1 if he charges you. :D

 

My suggestion, Shoot the bejeesus out of him and hope he charges with MH on him. If he is attached to the unit at the time that Murderous Hurricane hits them, then the Juggernauts basically become the Kittens of Khorne. :D

[Ail'Slath'Sleresh]

You may think nurgle daemons cannot do much damage but plaguebearers wield poisoned weapons at STR4 so against your marines they can reroll their wounds... Thats not really something to ignore because even if he fails all of his wounds in a combat he has a second chance. More than likely he wont be fielding a massive unit of anything and might try to divide his forces to medium size in order to swarm you effectively. Be wary of this because if it happens then you might be done for. His one unit with the HQ will be an issue but if it comes in his second wave then you really can open fire on his units. Just pray that any objectives if there are any are in cover enough for you to claim initiative over his charges. Daemons are tough but again only slaaneshi daemons have the aura of acquiescence minus the fiend. You honestly dont need to get that worried but dont waste your firepower on units that are meant to draw your fire. If possible make a horse shoe formation around his troops in cover and just blast away at him. He probably wont accept this and neither do I whenever I play but play a terrain heavy field to muck up his deepstriking. Though he only has to roll ones for wounds that he can take invul saves for it still is a way for him to get hurt. Theres not much you can do as far as his crusher unit with skull taker also since all daemons have eternal warrior so str 8+ weapons wont really pop anything but maybe ignore his armor which helps! Being a daemon player I hate the 5+ invul though it always seems to strike fear into my least game educated opponents. It aint no thang but a chicken wing! If you can drown him in fire and special abilities he wont know what hit him!

[GeoWolf]

Holy crap! I never realized that you get re-rolls with the poisoned weapons! ;) I've been curbing my potential.....

 

But even still, most Nurgle units are the objective holders. Hard to shift and resilient as crud, have won me games in the past.

[Ail'Slath'Sleresh]

Re-rolls are constituted by str so str 4 pb's vs t4 or less get to reroll failed wounds.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

If I remember correctly he said his HQ of choice was going to be a Skulltaker on Juggernut with a unit of Bloodcrushers in support. That is the one thing I can remember with a high degree of certainty.

 

DO NOT LET SKULLTAKER CHARGE!

 

He insta-kills all models he attacks on a 4+ roll to hit. If you can't avoid him, at least rob him of the charge.

 

Skulltaker and a unit of Bloodcrushers is a royal pain, they are all extremely tough, extremely hard hitting but extremely pricey if he takes more than a few Bloodcrushers.

 

Even at 1000, don't underestimate the amount of bodies a Daemon Army can put down. Running without the Heavy Hitting units, well thats a misnomer, most Daemon units can hit fairly hard, but if he doesnt take a Daemon Prince, Soul Grinder or Greater Daemon, he can easily get 50 models, and thats with taking an elite unit.

 

If he doesn't take an elite unit. He's an idiot. Okay I'm joking. But Daemon Elites are the best things the army has, especially flamers of Tzeentch. Insta-wound on a 4+ flamer template that moves like jump infantry? Yikes. Always be wary of his elites and remember how each is countered.

 

These apply to all the gods units in general.

 

Tzeentch - Have some serious firepower they can put down, but aren't very strong in CC. Be wary as they have a better Invulnerable save than the rest of the army.

 

Slaanesh - Think of them as the hurty, rendy, stabby plague. BUt fortunately for you, fragile as all hell. T3 or T4 across the board and nothing bar the Greater Daemon breaks a 5+ invulnerable.

 

Khorne - Fairly durable, and scary as all hell on the charge. Base unit has a Power Weapon and Furious Charge, so try to charge them rather than be charged.

 

Nurgle - Tough. No, I don't think you understand me. TOUGH! T5, 5+ Invulneralbe and Feel No Pain. They are the Daemon army's objective holders, but aren't able to do too much damage. Be wary as they have poisoned weapons, but still, best not to woory about their damage output too much.

 

It really is just a matter of picking your fights with a daemon army. Concentrate fire to whittle down his units, but if you can bring a unit down to a few models and then charge them, do so with 1 unit while the other targets another unit. They hit hard overall, but aren't as great at taking the hit.

Ickies...Also remember if you need to shift Nurgles off a objective,if they don't have anti vehicle stuff you can tank shock them and move them off fairly easy. I don't know for sure what they have as I haven't fought Daemons specifically but its something to remember. A RP with MW and Arjac being ready to charge or take the charge,would make it a bit easier to deal with that Skulltaker. Or a screen of wolves to tie him up,followed by the charge of a TWM Lord with Bear Saga.

[Godhead]

daemons struggle against armor. If you mech up and make them get you out, then you can pretty much pick your fights. I found flamers to work pretty nicely vs daemon. My LRR especially. I'd tank shock the ones that can't hurt it.. then flame them in a nice large pack. Unfortunately for daemons, their MC's are their best AT weapons, which makes them a priority target, and moving your vehicles makes it harder for them to hit your tanks, and lowers their effectiveness in busting your armor.

[pucadubh]

The only issue id forsee is a lack of a Monster killer, he will likly have a Demon Prince or two, and likly a Greater Demon or two.

 

Don't forget the Lone Wolf Beastslayer rule for MCs and also you can give the Beastslayer saga to a Rune Priest with Living Lightning and you get rerolls on that vs MCs too (you can add a Chooser to make him miss less also).

[Ail'Slath'Sleresh]

Have you decided on points yet? I suggest you do so we can help you build a few mock up lists.

[Azza007]

Here is the list I have for 1500 pts, what you think? Will it do the trick?

 

HQ: - RP with wolf tooth necklace(GH4)=110pts

 

Elites: - LW, TDA, thunder hammer, storm shield=85pts

 

Elites: - Dreadnought with twin-linked lascannon=135pts

 

Elites: - 5 WG 1 TDA with power fist, assault cannon (LF), 4 PA with wolf claws (GH1), plasma pistol and power fist (GH2), powerfist and storm shield (GH3), power weapon (BC)=260pts

 

Troops: - 9 GH with power fist, flamer, rhino=195pts GH1

 

Troops: - 9 GH with plasma gun, power weapon=160pts GH2

 

Troops: - 9 Grey Hunters with power fist, plasma gun=170pts GH3

 

Troops: - 5 GH with flamer, power fist=100pts GH4

 

Troops: - 9 BC with powerfist=160pts

 

Heavy Support: - 4 LF with lascannon, plasma cannon, heavy bolter, power weapon=125 pts

 

Plan is to have a gun line using GH 2+3 with LF in support. Have the Dreadnought and BC on the flanks to push into any threatening units while GH1 and LW are my counter attack units. the RP will go with GH4 as a body guard to provide support where needed in the gunline. Thinking of using MH and JotWW for my psychic powers.

[pucadubh]

Hi Azza007, what powers on the RP?

 

Strike the question, missed the last line ... MH is great but don't forget Tempest Wrath for that 24" anti deep strike bubble because if he risks it you should get wounds (and he is in difficult & dangerous terrain) and if he doesn't risk it then your ranged LFs get a chance to soften him up before he comes into MH range

[Xeenos]

Ehh.. Over all the list dosnt make me giddy. But to each their own.

 

The point raised about the lack of Tempest Wrath is a good one, if anything maybe take Tempest and Murrdious. Though id lean on another RP.

 

Im not sure about your loadout for your Wolf Guard, you know they dont need to all have different load outs right? Well whatever your reasion, id lose the Plasma Pistol. If it were me, id over heat and die the first time i used it and poof, PF is gone. Though you appear to be a big Plasma fan, given how much of it is in your army. Why not just go the Combi Plasma then, its cheeper, longer range, or if their close enough you can rappid fire it anyway. The one with the Storm Shield, too, might as well lose that Storm Shield, if you put a wound on him with the hope of blocking it, and fail.. bam you out a Fist. You dont the whole pack to die first before the fist has to go. Id also save the 10 points and not give the Wolf Guard with the long fangs, that Fist. If the Long fangs get into the fight its bad news anyway.. take the points and spend them better so that the Long Fangs need not see combat.

 

Not sure what the goal of the 5 man pack is, they look like fodder or an objective holder. IMO id scrap them and add 1 more guy to your two gun line Grey Hunters, this also nets you a the Free Plasma gun! So.. you can take the 5 guys and add one to each Grey Hunter, then add 3 more to the Blood Claws to boost their numbers a bit. This will see you left with a small pool of points, like 10 or so, alowing you to maybe change the Power Weapon WG, into a Fist, or something.

 

EDIT: Right, i see that they were ment to be guard for the Rune Priest, alas id still scrap them and add the Priest to one of the two Grey Hunters, if one is in risk of being assaulted and you dont want him in the fight, have him leave to the other. Or if the Long fangs are near, you could simply set him in their with them, depending on the powers you want to use.. If your going to just spam Living Lightning all game, it might as well stay with the Fangs.

 

Basicly making the troops look like..

 

Grey Hunters x9

~Power Fist

~Flamer

~Rhino

~WG w/ Wolf Clawx2

 

Grey Hunter x10

~Plasma Gun x2

~Power Weapon

~WG w/ Combi Plasma & Power Fist

 

Grey Hunter x10

~Plasma Gun x2

~Power Fist

~WG w/ Combi Plasma & Power Fist

 

Blood Claws x 12

~Power Fist

~WG w/ Power Weapon

 

 

You might also want to check up on the many threads about how best to gear out your Wolf Guard. Generally as ive seen people do, is to give a Power Weapon to the pack itself, and then give all the Wolf Guard, the Power Fist. Reasion being the Wolf Guard pays the same price as the pack member, but gets twice as many swings. The Wolf Guard also then has easy room for a Combi Weapon, no longer having any need for a Pistol, given the inablity to get +1 attack, given the Power Fist. So, alter your army as you see fit, but such is the general rule i would follow. Power Fists on Wolf Guard, Power Weapons on the rank and file guys.

[GeoWolf]

If you can, add extra armor to the dread. it is usually a worthwhile investment if you think he will see CC.

 

Couple of concerns. Tempest and JotWW are good powers, but while Tempest is overall good, JotWW can be hit or miss, depending on the lineup of targets. Remember that MH makes Khorne a pushover, Skulltaker hates fighting at I1. Slaanesh can take it, they have grenades if they have soporific musk, but the wounds are still nice. Ideally a second RP would be nice, for the MH/LL setup. If you are going to have your RP in the front lines, then it shouldn't be too bad, he still wounds on 2+ against daemons, though he isn't a CC specialist.

 

Just remember that conventional tactics go out the window when fighting Daemons.

 

A gun line is ok, but don't stretch it out, try to curve it around your guys. the beginning of the game should see you in a defensive position as you see what comes out of the warp and how he is positioning it all. If you get first turn, your guys will have nothing to shoot at. Please don't break ranks and run for the objectives at this point, it is the calm before the storm, and has netted me easy games. Just look at how you are deployed vs. terrain and try to figure where he is coming in.

 

After the first wave is done, and you have weathered it, then you can start to come out of your shell. I would say not to move for objectives until turn 3 if possible, but sometimes turn 2 has to be the start. Again, don't go piecemeal, send two units, and only once you have the Obj, send the escort to help where needed.

 

At this point I notice a lack of transports in your army. Is GH1 going to be the only Obj grabber? I would drop GH4 in lieu of more rhinos. You can use your rhinos to help block up for the first wave, leaving your guys out to shoot, then mount up and shoot out while driving around. MC are their real armor busters, and the only thing that can get a penetrating hit on AV14. Remember: GD and DP are the only MCs, with the soulgrinder filling in as a MC with an armor value. However, Breath of Chaos Glances on 4+(flamer template), Deathstrike(Khorne shooting ability) is Str7, Bolt of Tzeentch is Str 8 AP1(same as Chaos Marines), and Slaaneshi have a chance to rend. Some Khorne units on the charge can get lucky on a Rhino due to Furious Charge.

[Azza007]

Unfortunately the game didn't take place in the end, someone got my case mixed up with his and walked out with it, therefore not able to play. The reason I only have the one Rhino is because that is the only one I have at the moment. As for the plasma, I have no flamers or meltas to swap them with so that was all I could use. Trying to find some that people don't want, also not fan of combi-weapons.

[GeoWolf]

Ok, those are valid points on your setup, but wow, they left with your case? That stinks, I'm sorry to hear that, hope you get it all back soon.

[Grimtooth]

I played a demon army at Ard Boyz and got a major victory by doing the following:

 

I put my rune priest in center of board practically and had him tempest wrath the whole game.

 

I surrounded him with GH squads in cover.

 

When his units started coming down, they were taking wounds and Soul Grinder was immobilized.

 

My GH squads got to fire for two or three times before they were assaulted at which time they all struck first.

 

My fenrisian wolves, LRR, termies, and bikes all then surrounded them from the flanks charging and chewing up the rest.

[Grey Mage]

Sadly, not one player in my area has deigned to throw down daemons since about the time SWs got rereleased, and it started dying down not to long after C:SM came out for that matter.

[Branek Icefang]

Sadly, not one player in my area has deigned to throw down daemons since about the time SWs got rereleased, and it started dying down not to long after C:SM came out for that matter.

 

I play Daemons and SW and probably throw my daemons down more often than the Wolves. The funny thing is, I can't beat SW with them, but I stomp SM, BA and DA.

[Grey Mage]

Thats because SWs are the best. I used to win 9/10 against most daemon opponents... though there was this one guy, played Khorne/Slaanesh and we wiped each other to a man almost every single game without fail.