Drop Pod Ramps?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Except no where in the rules does it say 'decorative' elements are ignored for tlos to other models.

The only thing that is mentioned is that a model cannot bring it's own cover with it, so if a banner or dozer blade is blocking Los to the model carrying it then that model wont get a cover save, a different model stood behind the banner would though.

No where does it say to completely ignore banners etc for Los, and with vehicles you likewise are not told to ignore dozer blades etc. Vehicle-wise the only mention of decorative elements is that they are ignored for measuring range to the hull. For example a model shooting a vindicator needs to measure range to the hull, not to the dozer blade.

 

I would appreciate any rules quotes stating otherwise, but as no one has provided them after 8 pages it us unlikely that someone will now.

woo time to make giant LOS blocking banners on all my assult terminators for an interlocking wall. I will move them first n the movement phase, turning them sideways so my guys can see between them, then use their run move in the shooting phase after everyone has shot to realighn them so no one can shoot at my squishiers units behind the termies. Add Shrike for fleet so they can still assault when the time comes.

Thats ok- theyll fall over from a light breeze and break a couple of my models- that might get you DQ'd right there, and if nothing else they can just die first.

 

Since were all being ridiculous.

 

Nah I got a bunch of the old metal termies from good will for $3, it will take an act of god to knock them down, even with wall like banners on the back. The point is that that scenario is equaly rediculous as using the drop pod ramps to block LOS. You may be able to make a raw argument, but its weaker than me saying that in the phrase "You cant take your cover with you" the words you and your refer to the player, and thus apply to any model or unit of their army taking cover saves from the decoritive items on any of their models.

[Zynk Kaladin]

What Im tired of is people trying to tell me they have to be down, or that they can magically shoot through my drop pod even though the doors are up.

 

Even so, the drop pod doors are meant to open and stay open after the drop pod lands because GW designed that way. It's like using a tool in the incorrect manner. There may not be any specific rules for using that tool, but it was designed to be used in a specific way and as such people assume you use it by implied procedure. Now I wouldn't force you to open your already glued shut doors because that's just not polite. My question is, however, how did your models magically end up outside your drop pod even though your doors are up?

 

I think we argued about this predicament before and never really came to a sound agreement...

 

 

I'm actually lost about what you guys are arguing about now. Are you debating whether the pedals confer cover saves or what?

[thade]

GC08, I really think you (et al) are taking that one rule way out of context. The rule that states cover cannot be granted by crap sticking off of a base is in direct reference to a case where you have, for instance, an IG officer crouched down behind a bush on his own base. The rule exists so that particular model does NOT get a cover save, as some noobs may think, mistakenly, "Hey, it's kind of 'area terrain'". You are trying to extend that in a way that seems to mean the rather large sponsons on the LR can't grant cover. But they can if, because of said sponsons, you can only see less than half of the unit/model in question. TLOS is pretty straightforward there.

 

There's no reason to wonder what they mean by "hull", as there's no way they would make the rules so inference-necessary and complicated; they made a clear effort to make it as dumb-fire easy as they could, which in turn leaves ambiguities for us to fish through, but this is due to a lack of complexity, not an overload of it.

[thade]

What Im tired of is people trying to tell me they have to be down, or that they can magically shoot through my drop pod even though the doors are up.

 

Even so, the drop pod doors are meant to open and stay open after the drop pod lands because GW designed that way.

 

I only use Drop Pods for Dreadnoughts, and since Dreads can't fit through the petals, I built the Drop Pod such that the Dread can "punch" his way out...so I tear half of the Drop Pod off and scatter the pieces about where he exits. I don't open the other petals, and so far nobody's complained...because it makes *sense*. I think a lot of the game is sort of on this "What, are you daft?" mentality with regards to what you can and can't do...there are things that the original rules writers thought were obvious and they were...only to them. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

Thade, for normal Drop Pods, do you rule that the opened doors are part of the Hull?

 

That means your opponent can't move within 1" of them, and can assault the Drop Pod form the tip of it's doors. Also, you can deploy within 2" of the tip of a door as well, as the Pod is 'Open Topped'. Also, the Doors would have to be open when Deep Striking, as as hull they would effect Mishap results.

 

Even on page one, Grey Mage rules the open doors as 'purely decorative'.

 

If you can't do any of that, then the doors aren't parts of the hull, regardless of if they are up or down, or how you model the vehicle.

[greatcrusade08]

one, Grey Mage rules the open doors as 'purely decorative'.

 

thats funny becuase on his last post he inferred they were part of the hull.. continuity is a wonderful thing is it not.

 

@Thade, gun barrels are said to be decorative elements, and the rule does mention that decorative elements arent used for cover... Ok i admit it says base but we can all agree that if we take it literally the rule can be abused (overlarge banners and whatnot)

the rules for decorative elements not being used for cover is in the intervening models section

 

and as i said TLOS has onlt a loose affiliation with cover saves... in some instances you can get cover saves even with complete LOS

but since we are talking about drop pods here, where the decorative elements in question are where the base would be, then its not such a stretch is it?

[greatcrusade08]

let me summarise my points becuase people are still getting hung up on this one rule.. which i admitted several hours ago was my main point of interpretation.

i may be wrong to assume this rule covers gun barrels, but since we arent talking about gun barrels it doesnt matter.

 

useful quotes:

page 11 movement: models in the way

a model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (reprisented by its base or its hull)

which is why i harp on about a vehicle only technically occupying the area of its hull... becuase you can move into the space occupied by drop pods ramps as if it wasnt there.

 

page 21: when are models in cover

when any part of the target models body (as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer

 

id like to point out at this point that if you DO get a cover save from the drop pods ramps then so does your enemy.. its intervening cover saves and as such works both ways.. but thats not important at this point.. just thought id throw it out there.

 

the first point of argument (assuming the ramps are not hull) is that because they are defined as decorative elements and n the ground (on the base if it had one) then "they are ignored from the point of view of determining cover"

 

the second point is that you must be able to see a vehicles hull to be able to shoot it, the mechanic as described on page 21 intervening models, described why a unit gets a cover save from intervening models.. if you cant technically (by RAW) see the ramps then they cant offer a cover save (TLOS not withstanding)

 

the third point going back to the quote above shows that a body part must be obscured to grant a cover save, since a drop pods ramps dont obscure the whole of the legs (the body part in question) then they dont get a cover saves...

 

 

the simple fact is you can move into the area occupied by the ramps as if they werent there, for the purposes of firing at the drop pod you cant technically see them... so why should you get a cover save from them?

[thade]

Sorry in advance Wall of Thade-o-Text incoming. So big, in fact, that if you blanket-quote it to tear it apart, people won't read your summarily massive post. You'll want to pick your poison. ;)

 

the first point of argument (assuming the ramps are not hull) is that because they are defined as decorative elements and n the ground (on the base if it had one) then "they are ignored from the point of view of determining cover"

 

This rule, again, is targeted at decorative elements that are attached to bases (see my previous post regarding an IG model crouched down hiding behind brush on his own base); it's not clear that we're supposed to extend that to other decorative elements (e.g. unfurled wings on a Demon Prince, large banners, etc).

 

the second point is that you must be able to see a vehicles hull to be able to shoot it, the mechanic as described on page 21 intervening models, described why a unit gets a cover save from intervening models.. if you cant technically (by RAW) see the ramps then they cant offer a cover save (TLOS not withstanding)

 

RAW doesn't say you can't see the ramps if they're not part of the hull. You can clearly see the ramps, they are *right* *there*. "TLOS not withstanding?" TLOS is the basis to vehicles and monstrous creatures receiving a cover save at all.

 

the third point going back to the quote above shows that a body part must be obscured to grant a cover save, since a drop pods ramps dont obscure the whole of the legs (the body part in question) then they dont get a cover saves...

 

Sure, that's fine. If I can see more than 50% of your model, it doesn't get a cover save. That's how the cover rules work. Note that they work without pretending the petals don't exist because "they're not part of the hull."

 

the simple fact is you can move into the area occupied by the ramps as if they werent there, for the purposes of firing at the drop pod you cant technically see them... so why should you get a cover save from them?

 

Not sure where you get this. You can stand ON the ramps, sure. The Drop Pod is not Area Terrain, so you can only get cover from it if - via TLOS - 50% or more of the unit/model in question is not visible. Also, consider the pocket case where - due to other scenery/wreckage/whatever that one or more of the petals cannot be dropped completely. In this case, they may in fact assist in granting a cover save. You can't really justify pretending part of a model doesn't exist for ruling whether or not it grants a cover save. If you can see it, it's a factor. It's only ruled not a factor when it's on the base of the model in question. Drop Pods don't have bases, so the rule isn't relevant to them. Yes you can get a cover save from it.

 

*Deep Breath*

 

Let's talk about modeling and the game.

 

Most of this trouble derives from something I think the authors of the rules did not consider: that is people who glue their Drop Pod doors shut. The model designers made this really cool model - the Drop Pod - with all sorts of details and features on the inside. The inside of the DP is highly detailed and fun to paint. Who would want to hide that, they must've thought. Nobody. Well, some people do/don't care, and so they throw the thing together and glue it shut. This isn't FAQ'd anywhere because I think it blows the minds of GW higher ups who likely all have super professionally painted and assembled models.

 

I sympathize with people who just want to play the game and/or have no desire or talent for painting and assembling models, so I would never say "No, you can't field a DP on which you glued the petals shut." In fact I've played in games where people have glued their DP doors shut. They have told me "just pretend they're down, i.e. pretend you can draw LOS through them." This is reasonable, I feel, since - unlike me - they didn't go so far as to assemble their DP. Likewise, without all the internal gadgetry inside of my pods (they're all open inside "so the dreads can fit in them") it's easier to trace LOS through mine. Not that it matters, as if you look at a landed DP wrong and it will vaporize.

 

I understand that there's no clear definition as to what "the hatches are blown" means but...really? I hope that is not your argument, because I'm pretty sure the FAQ for it was never addressed as it falls under the "What? Are they daft?" category of questions at GW proper. If models mean to exit the Drop Pod, the petals have to be down, because models can't walk through walls. Now I hear you saying, "But Thade, c'mon. The doors on my Rhinos don't open up." Really? Mine do. Honestly, and it's not that hard. Just don't glue the doors shut. :P What, you did? Oh, in that case, they're stuck inside. Also, your marines can't hop out the top hatch to fire, because they can't open the door that you also glued shut. (Actually, I glued the top of my Rhino shut too.) "Thade, this is getting ridiculous." I know, right?

 

Bottom-line: how you model something DOES have an in-game effect on it. Very often models will have arms, wings, jump packs, a steep lean, whatever, making it extend well beyond it's base, making literal "base-to-base" contact impossible in the context of assaults. We all let that slide though, right? Okay, how about this: if you put a cool bit of rock or something else on a base for a model to stand on, that one model makes your entire unit easier to spot over hard cover. You can certainly tell your opponent "This lone orange-painted plasma pistol is a counts-as infernus pistol," but you can't really tell your opponent "This one model counts-as being shorter so you can't actually see him over this thing." Think about it. =\

 

Some things are specifically referenced in the rules that regard modeling and how crap works in the game, ie "if it looks like it pivots/rotates, it can". I mean, in the extreme, you might say "The treads on your tank don't move, so it can't move either." I think we all agree that' *too far* to extend the argument of modeling impacts the game. (I hope so, anyway.) I think, however, the extension that "If it looks like it opens, it does" is sensible, because how else do your marines hop out of that Rhino/Drop Pod/Land Raider.

 

And no, I don't "count the petals as part of the hull", because they are not part of the hull. They're doors that flop down so the marines can climb out. Counting them as part of the hull is power-game shenanigans which is both definitively incorrect and annoying as it cuts off a lot of the table.

[thade]

Here is a summary:

 

On a Rhino your guys can hop out and run around and you don't have to model the doors such that they open/close. Why? Because they're doors. They can be closed again. In fact, we all more or less assume that doors on transports open for guys to get out and then close behind them.

 

The "hatches are blown" rule on the Drop Pod tells me that those doors on the DP - the one that open so the marines can get out - do NOT close after opening, meaning you are better off modeling them as open than closed, since they are open for the battle...unlike the rest of your transports.

 

Maybe it's not so bad to pretend they're down then? Certainly seems nicer.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I agree with thade and really have nothing else to add to what he said.

 

Also, who wouldn't want to paint the inside of your drop pod? You're paying out the arse for it so you might as well get the most from it.

[greatcrusade08]

the simple fact is you can move into the area occupied by the ramps as if they werent there, for the purposes of firing at the drop pod you cant technically see them... so why should you get a cover save from them?

 

Not sure where you get this. You can stand ON the ramps, sure.

 

Actually the movement rule says you can move through or into any area not occupied by a vehicles hull.. according to this your not standing on the ramps but your both technically occupying the same space.

or more practically the ramps are not counted as being there becuase they are purely decorative and therefore the models move into opne ground.. reprisented on the tabletop by placing the models ontop of the ramp..

 

oh and btw, TLOS is not used to determine cover saves in the way peopole are saying.. if you read the processes TLOS is used to determine if you can fire, you then apply whichever set of cover rules that are relevant to see if you get a cover save.. you seem to be skipping that bit..

in this case its intervening models..

sure we could stick with pure RAW, but this case doesnt allow for that becuase the list isnt fully inclusive, it allows for alot of interpretation which muddies the RAW waters somewhat.

 

but listen.. if we both agree that a drop pods ramps dont grant a cover save why are we still having this argument..

[thade]

but listen.. if we both agree that a drop pods ramps dont grant a cover save why are we still having this argument..

Sounds like it's time for a drink. :whistling:

[Dan VK]

Also, who wouldn't want to paint the inside of your drop pod? You're paying out the arse for it so you might as well get the most from it.

 

I have a friend in New York City who pointed out that a night out clubbing is equivalent to a squad of Terminators and a Land Raider to put them in. Money is not an issue for all players. Also, some people are solely concerned with putting models on the table. Other people (including multiple members of my gaming group) would rather spend their time painting new models than adding what they consider unnecessary detail to an otherwise completely painted model. I am with you on this (make it look at sweet as possible!), but we all approach the game differently.

 

Sounds like it's time for a drink. ;)

 

:yes: And crunchies?

[Rider-75]

Here is a summary:

 

On a Rhino your guys can hop out and run around and you don't have to model the doors such that they open/close. Why? Because they're doors. They can be closed again. In fact, we all more or less assume that doors on transports open for guys to get out and then close behind them.

 

The "hatches are blown" rule on the Drop Pod tells me that those doors on the DP - the one that open so the marines can get out - do NOT close after opening, meaning you are better off modeling them as open than closed, since they are open for the battle...unlike the rest of your transports.

 

Maybe it's not so bad to pretend they're down then? Certainly seems nicer.

 

 

in fact see the disembarking diagram in the BRB.

 

where is the 2" area drawn from?

 

the open rhino ramps? no - from the rhino hull.

 

this should extend to disembarking from the DP - 2" from the actual hull exit points, not from the end of the ramp.

 

as to whether they provide cover?

 

"hatches are blown" is a description, not a rule per se. however it really should be taken as such as it is in the description of what happens to the DP and how it works. i doubt this will get FAQ'd as no doubt the bods at GW think it blatantly obvious.....

 

so cover or not?

 

well, due to modelling your DP doors shut you would have to "imagine" the TLOS through an "open" DP. that shouldn't be too hard - after all we are imagining we are controlling a bunch of genetic posthumans after all..... to do otherwise would really be a case of modelling for advantage aka cheating... to be frank, if you pull this on me i'm packing up and walking.

 

the ramps are attached to the hull, not the base and as such they could (although being so low unlikely) provide cover saves as an intervening model.

[thade]

This is typically how this thread ends up. Always seems weird to me that it rears it's head now and again.

[Dan VK]

This is typically how this thread ends up. Always seems weird to me that it rears it's head now and again.

 

Unfortunately there are a lot of topics like this (like Sweeping Advance and We'll Be Back! :sick: ). People tend to ask a question before using the search function to see if their question has already been asked and answered. I have been guilty of this many times. :) I guess all we can do is link to the previous thread, right?