Drop Pod Ramps?

[thade]

How are your models getting out of your Rhino? Is it also by magic? I haven't seen one open yet.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

 

My Rhino's doors do in fact open. =P While I'm one of only two at my club (the other guy also has working headlights on his tanks with LEDs and very well hidden battery compartments), I presume they must be able to open on all tanks because, well, doods are gettin out of them. Not all of us buy our stuff pre-assembled and painted on eBay.

 

That said, I am a bit stumped on TLOS as it relates to DPs now. As I recall, the last time we talked about this we resolved that we could trace LOS through the DP regardless...but it was a side note, as the thread was based on showing you could not deploy from the tips of the petals if your DP *did* open. Looks like I'll need to relent for now. I'll give it some more thought.

[Zynk Kaladin]

When a vehicle's doors open, usually marines are coming out which blocks LOS. How large are the drop pod doors compared to a land raider's or rhino's? You can most definitely shoot over a marine coming out of a DP than a vehicle. Also, when the DP lands the doors stay open. I hope to the Emperor's balls that a rhino or land raider doesn't drive around with its doors open. I'm sure they have an alarm that goes "ding ding" if someone accidentally left their door open. Then each marine has to check their door, but I digress...

 

But yea, we're driving this thread off the road so to speak.

[Valerian]

How are your models getting out of your Rhino? Is it also by magic? I haven't seen one open yet.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

 

My Rhino's doors do in fact open. =P While I'm one of only two at my club (the other guy also has working headlights on his tanks with LEDs and very well hidden battery compartments),

 

But you have personally gone above and beyond with your modeling (completely optionally and not a requirement by the rules) to better represent reality - which is certainly to be commended. That extra effort, however, in no way invalidates how the rules work according to this issue. The RAW still stands on how disembarking models are simply placed within 2" of an access point (one that doesn't actually have to functionally open in the real world!), or simply within 2" of the hull for an open-topped vehicle.

 

I presume they must be able to open on all tanks because, well, doods are gettin out of them. Not all of us buy our stuff pre-assembled and painted on eBay.

 

Well, they didn't come pre-assembled or painted, I just said that there was no other way to assemble them other than to glue it all together. And, back then, as I already mentioned, the only way to get Drop Pods was to shell out for the Forge World models, build your own, or get some from a fellow on eBay who had developed a good workable template. This is just like folks are having to do right now Stormraven models, or for Thunderwolf models until GW decides to produce their own. When they do, I doubt all the folks that got their Mr. Dandy Thunderwolves are going to bother to swap them out for the "official ones" when they've already paid for some, painted them up, and have been using them in their armies for years - there is no point to it. You can send an off-handed remark my way for getting them off of eBay if you want to, but at least I had good models for my Drop Pods and wasn't using coke cans or compact disks, and nobody has complained about them yet.

 

V

[rat of vengence]

If your doors don't open, pretend that they do, for the sake of sportsmanship and the way the game is supposed to work. How do your models exit anyway if the doors don't blow open? Not a problem you say? Then allow people to trace LOS thru it =P as they allow you to exit it.

 

I built my first Drop Pod such that the harness structure magnetizes in and can be easily removed so I can use it as a Dread Drop Pod. Since the Dread can't fit out through the petal-doors, he just punches his way out...so I have two of the petals set to easily come off and go back on. For those of you that don't go to this level of modeling/painting, accept our forgiveness and accept your 4+ cover save as I shoot your models through it.

 

Most sensible post this thread.

 

RoV

[thade]

You can send an off-handed remark my way for getting them off of eBay if you want to, but at least I had good models for my Drop Pods and wasn't using coke cans or compact disks, and nobody has complained about them yet.

 

I admit I was offended by the way you had put your direct responses to me, but that doesn't justify my own response; I apologize.

 

I once allowed an opponent to use a dice cube as a Drop Pod proxy; I'm really quite forgiving with regard to what people field against me. So long as the SB is either blind or modeled outside, perhaps it's not so bad that some or all of the doors can't/don't open and TLOS is used. The game does revolve around modeling (that is where GW makes most of it's money and why it requires 50% or more GW parts per model) so allow me to make a plug: I encourage you all to model your DPs such that their doors open. It looks remarkably cool.

 

The doors on the DP were ruled - in an earlier thread - to no longer be a part of the hull because they were "blown open" RAW. (This was further supported by the thought that a Rhino's back ramp should not be allowed to be made telescoping so as to extend disembarking range.) If it's fluff, then they can still be part of the hull and you can disembark way out to the tip of the ramp...which is exploit-y. That is the premise that I am still concerned is an issue here.

[Valerian]

You can send an off-handed remark my way for getting them off of eBay if you want to, but at least I had good models for my Drop Pods and wasn't using coke cans or compact disks, and nobody has complained about them yet.

 

I admit I was offended by the way you had put your direct responses to me, but that doesn't justify my own response; I apologize.

 

You were offended by something I said? I went back to double-check and didn't notice anything provocative, but even so I didn't mean to offend. If I singled you out it was probably just because of something specific that you said that I thought needed addressing. As you know, it all works better on here if we keep to the logical arguments and stay away from personal comments that aren't related to the issue.

 

The doors on the DP were ruled - in an earlier thread - to no longer be a part of the hull because they were "blown open" RAW. (This was further supported by the thought that a Rhino's back ramp should not be allowed to be made telescoping so as to extend disembarking range.) If it's fluff, then they can still be part of the hull and you can disembark way out to the tip of the ramp...which is exploit-y. That is the premise that I am still concerned is an issue here.

 

No, that was a good ruling before, and you don't have to worry about it being invalidated here. The thing is, for a combat vehicle, a door, a hatch, and a ramp are exactly that - a door, a hatch, and a ramp. They are each, effectively, part of the hull when they are all secured (e.g fastened shut), but when they are opened, no one in their right mind would consider them anything other than the door, hatch, or ramp that they are. So no worries about using them to "extend" deployment distances from any vehicle - as that simply doesn't jive. The only way that would work is if GW had expressly written that lowered ramps and open doors still count as part of a vehicle's hull for disembarkation purposes, which they have not.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Koremu]

I don't know what kind of Marines you have, but on my normal ones, Drop Pod doors don't even come up to their ankles. Much less so on my newer armies, not that I've started basing them on cork.

As long as part of the models limbs, torso or head is obscured, the model counts as in Cover, and if half the Squad has that Cover, they all do.

 

Infantry Cover rules are intentionally generous to the Infantry, to represent the Squad's awareness of their situation and their ability to make best use of that Cover, FWIW.

 

Drop Pod ramps are enough to protect the entire Squad, from any direction, if you deploy correctly.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's doors *cannot* stay shut. You can always shoot thorugh a DP.

 

Fire Points and Access Points: Once deployed the Drop Pod is no longer a sealed environment and is therefore counted as being open topped

 

And while 'open topped' doesn't say anything about TLoS, there's the rule to back up the doors blowing off fluff.

 

Unlike Rhinos or Land Raiders, DP doors *can't* close agian after disembarkment, regardless of whether or not you've glued them shut.

 

Anyone trying to stop LoS through a glued shut DP is being as lame as anyone trying to claim the open topped disembarkment rules of using the ends of the petals to measure disembarkment from.

 

Edit: And for the folks who do count the petals as part of the hull, I hope you also roll for DS mishap when you DS next to a unit and find a petal falls on that unit...

[Agrab]

The thing is, the rules clearly state that the doors blow open and that the models must disembark immediately. As this is one sentence, either it is fluff or a rule, pick one or the other.

If a rule, then either model them as being operable or assume they are (like, we often leave some closed for balance, but assume that you can shoot through).

If it is fluff, then my dread is hiding in there and shooting you while he is obscured

[Grey Mage]

It's doors *cannot* stay shut. You can always shoot thorugh a DP.

 

Fire Points and Access Points: Once deployed the Drop Pod is no longer a sealed environment and is therefore counted as being open topped

 

And while 'open topped' doesn't say anything about TLoS, there's the rule to back up the doors blowing off fluff.

 

Unlike Rhinos or Land Raiders, DP doors *can't* close agian after disembarkment, regardless of whether or not you've glued them shut.

 

Anyone trying to stop LoS through a glued shut DP is being as lame as anyone trying to claim the open topped disembarkment rules of using the ends of the petals to measure disembarkment from.

 

Edit: And for the folks who do count the petals as part of the hull, I hope you also roll for DS mishap when you DS next to a unit and find a petal falls on that unit...

Actually, this was another reason I decided to glue my doors shut to begin with- so I wouldnt have to get into fights with anyone about wether or not I could deploy from any particular part of the DP and so I wouldnt have to fight over wether or not my troops could walk over the petals.

 

TLOS is TLOS though, more than once its kept my LFs from hitting the same target as the Dread I threw down.

 

I dont complain when my opponents giant set of wings obscures his carnifexii, and I dont expect complaints when my DPs obscure things as they do naturally.

[Gentlemanloser]

DPs don't 'naturally' obscure anything. They are, by rules, no longer a sealed enviroment they moment they are deployed. Playing them as such is counter to RAW.

 

At the very least, you are not modeling an open topped vehicle. At the worst, you're modeling to gain an advantage. /shrug

[thade]

DPs don't 'naturally' obscure anything. They are, by rules, no longer a sealed enviroment they moment they are deployed. Playing them as such is counter to RAW.

 

At the very least, you are not modeling an open topped vehicle. At the worst, you're modeling to gain an advantage. /shrug

 

You are mistaken. Open-topped vehicles do not intrinsically allow you to fire through them (see for example Ork Trukks), regardless of how you model them. The Drop Pod no longer being a sealed environment does not RAW mean anything; it's fluff-text only. Anything meaningful about the DP there revolves around how it's an immobile hulk after it lands and the marines can't back inside of it to hide (as they can any other transport). Once it's down, hatches open or closed, it's TLOS from there...barring any agreements you have with your club/opponent.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ignoring the idea of an open top (which a fully sealed Drop Pod isn't), the fluff is the doors blow off. The part I quoted is a rule section and not fluff.

 

Agreed, there's no explicit rules for 'sealed', and that open topped doesn't dictate anything about TLoS. But the rules are there in combination to support the fluff of doors being blown off and instant disembarkation.

 

Not allowing LoS thorugh your DP is lame. You're ignoring fluff, you're ignoring at least the intention of the rules, if not the actuallity of the rules (which agreed aren't explicitly defined), and you're not modeling an open topped or no longer fully sealed vehicle. And you're doing so for an advantage, which is agianst the rules.

 

At the least, cut the top off your DP. /shrug

 

It's still a lame call.

[Frosty the Pyro]

TLOS is TLOS though, more than once its kept my LFs from hitting the same target as the Dread I threw down.

 

I dont complain when my opponents giant set of wings obscures his carnifexii, and I dont expect complaints when my DPs obscure things as they do naturally.

 

You should, wings are like banners, antanie, and etc (which for me at least drop pod pannels count as) and are decoritive and ignored completely in LOS, as per the BRB, you cant shoot the wings, and the wings cant stop you from shooting whats behind it. If I made assault terminators who all had giant banners wider than the terminator and flowing down to the ground and then lineing them up to make a solid wall protecting those behind them, well someone would have quiet yet firm words with me. Its not any different, just more blatant.

[Isiah]

Well lets not be so keen to call one another's thoughts on this lame please. There are at least two other topics on this very subject if you care to use searchy to seek them out to se what conclusions were reached before.

 

The fact remains there are no rules that require transport vehicle models' doors (drop pod or whatever) to be physically opened to allow the embarked troops out. Check the diagram and rules on p67 – I see no open doors on that Rhino. As such it's hard to rule on issues such as TLOS etc as presumably the open doors could be 'closed' before the enemy shooting phase to re-block TLOS as again no rules to support this one way or the other :P .

 

Rules-wise, what constitutes a blown hatch anyway? [no rules]. Can it be closed? [no rules]. Can we choose to "blow" the hatches furthest from an enemy shooting unit and leave others closed? [no rules]. What happens in restricted terrain where doors can't actually be physically opened? [no rules]. So with no rules how can we successfully rule for TLOS?

 

All we have is a bit of fluff regarding blown hatches and some head scratching regarding [possible] RAI and model(s) that a gamer chooses to have either doors that open or doors that are glued shut – and either model is valid rule-wise.

 

Best option if pods are being used: dicscuss with opponent before the game starts.

 

Cheers

I

[Valerian]

The thing is, the rules clearly state that the doors blow open and that the models must disembark immediately. As this is one sentence, either it is fluff or a rule, pick one or the other.

If a rule, then either model them as being operable or assume they are (like, we often leave some closed for balance, but assume that you can shoot through).

If it is fluff, then my dread is hiding in there and shooting you while he is obscured

 

 

Agrab,

 

I would actually tend to agree with you, the Drop Pod "bestiary" entry in my Blood Angels codex has exactly that language you noted above - the hatches blow open and the models must disembark immediately. Furthermore, it does appear to be a part of the rule and not just a part of the fluff/background material as I had remembered from older codices.

 

But here is where it gets interesting.... in the Drop Pod entry in my Space Wolves codex (my primary army), it doesn't say anything about the hatches blowing open! It says, "Once a Drop Pod has landed, all passengers must immediately disembark. Once the passengers have disembarked, no models can embark on the Drop Pod for the rest of the game." Its Type in the stat line is "Open-topped", and under under its special rules it is "Immobile". All of these are simple enough and none of them require anyone to "drop ramps".

 

So, that leaves us with an interesting situation whereby the same vehicle might behave differently, under RAW, for different armies (that isn't the first time, of course, and isn't likely to be the last).

 

Ignoring the idea of an open top (which a fully sealed Drop Pod isn't), the fluff is the doors blow off. The part I quoted is a rule section and not fluff.

 

Nobody is disputing the fact that a Drop-Pod is "open-topped". There are very clear rules for that, and how that affects a given vehicle - any glancing or penetrating hits against an open-topped vehicle add +1 to the damage result (kinda like a regular vehicle being hit by an AP1 weapon). This isn't in dispute, and everyone agrees that rule applies.

 

What you are trying to do is to use the open-topped typing of the vehicle as the basis for creating something that does not exist in the rules - a tie-in between this typing and how you must model the vehicle (or how you must manipulate the vehicle in-game). There is no RAW that says an open-topped vehicle must look like this, or like that, so like everything on this subforum, we have to ignore any RAI.

 

Valerian

[Agrab]

It's doors *cannot* stay shut. You can always shoot thorugh a DP.

 

Fire Points and Access Points: Once deployed the Drop Pod is no longer a sealed environment and is therefore counted as being open topped

 

And while 'open topped' doesn't say anything about TLoS, there's the rule to back up the doors blowing off fluff.

 

Unlike Rhinos or Land Raiders, DP doors *can't* close agian after disembarkment, regardless of whether or not you've glued them shut.

 

Anyone trying to stop LoS through a glued shut DP is being as lame as anyone trying to claim the open topped disembarkment rules of using the ends of the petals to measure disembarkment from.

 

Edit: And for the folks who do count the petals as part of the hull, I hope you also roll for DS mishap when you DS next to a unit and find a petal falls on that unit...

Actually, this was another reason I decided to glue my doors shut to begin with- so I wouldnt have to get into fights with anyone about wether or not I could deploy from any particular part of the DP and so I wouldnt have to fight over wether or not my troops could walk over the petals.

 

TLOS is TLOS though, more than once its kept my LFs from hitting the same target as the Dread I threw down.

 

I dont complain when my opponents giant set of wings obscures his carnifexii, and I dont expect complaints when my DPs obscure things as they do naturally.

the wings can not obscure by the rules, nor can your doors. The rule clearly states that they open. If you are playing with them closed, then you are not following the rules

[Agrab]

The thing is, the rules clearly state that the doors blow open and that the models must disembark immediately. As this is one sentence, either it is fluff or a rule, pick one or the other.

If a rule, then either model them as being operable or assume they are (like, we often leave some closed for balance, but assume that you can shoot through).

If it is fluff, then my dread is hiding in there and shooting you while he is obscured

 

 

Agrab,

 

I would actually tend to agree with you, the Drop Pod "bestiary" entry in my Blood Angels codex has exactly that language you noted above - the hatches blow open and the models must disembark immediately. Furthermore, it does appear to be a part of the rule and not just a part of the fluff/background material as I had remembered from older codices.

 

But here is where it gets interesting.... in the Drop Pod entry in my Space Wolves codex (my primary army), it doesn't say anything about the hatches blowing open! It says, "Once a Drop Pod has landed, all passengers must immediately disembark. Once the passengers have disembarked, no models can embark on the Drop Pod for the rest of the game." Its Type in the stat line is "Open-topped", and under under its special rules it is "Immobile". All of these are simple enough and none of them require anyone to "drop ramps".

 

So, that leaves us with an interesting situation whereby the same vehicle might behave differently, under RAW, for different armies (that isn't the first time, of course, and isn't likely to be the last).

 

Ignoring the idea of an open top (which a fully sealed Drop Pod isn't), the fluff is the doors blow off. The part I quoted is a rule section and not fluff.

 

Nobody is disputing the fact that a Drop-Pod is "open-topped". There are very clear rules for that, and how that affects a given vehicle - any glancing or penetrating hits against an open-topped vehicle add +1 to the damage result (kinda like a regular vehicle being hit by an AP1 weapon). This isn't in dispute, and everyone agrees that rule applies.

 

What you are trying to do is to use the open-topped typing of the vehicle as the basis for creating something that does not exist in the rules - a tie-in between this typing and how you must model the vehicle (or how you must manipulate the vehicle in-game). There is no RAW that says an open-topped vehicle must look like this, or like that, so like everything on this subforum, we have to ignore any RAI.

 

Valerian

 

I will assume that a new WG would bring it up to 5th, which both SM and BA agree is open. However, when playing WG you are more than free to keep them closed and block LOS. With SM or BA, due to the wording of the rule, you must open them or treat them as opened

[Ming]

I thought this was discussed before.

 

In a nutshell, LOS can be traced through a pod but counts as obscured. Both ways. 4+ cover saves shooting through it. Yada Yada, basis may be from GW itself.

[Grey Mage]

TLOS is TLOS though, more than once its kept my LFs from hitting the same target as the Dread I threw down.

 

I dont complain when my opponents giant set of wings obscures his carnifexii, and I dont expect complaints when my DPs obscure things as they do naturally.

 

You should, wings are like banners, antanie, and etc (which for me at least drop pod pannels count as) and are decoritive and ignored completely in LOS, as per the BRB, you cant shoot the wings, and the wings cant stop you from shooting whats behind it. If I made assault terminators who all had giant banners wider than the terminator and flowing down to the ground and then lineing them up to make a solid wall protecting those behind them, well someone would have quiet yet firm words with me. Its not any different, just more blatant.

No Frosty, according to pg. 16 of the BRB you cannot shoot at a target if all you can see are banners, wings, antennae etc, but you do not ignore them for what you could see behind them if they werent there.

 

While you cannot target a hive tyrant by its wings alone, you certainly cannot deny the zoanthrop behind it a cover save if you cant see more than half of it, and if between a bush and the wings you cant see it... then you cant shoot it.

[Agrab]

TLOS is TLOS though, more than once its kept my LFs from hitting the same target as the Dread I threw down.

 

I dont complain when my opponents giant set of wings obscures his carnifexii, and I dont expect complaints when my DPs obscure things as they do naturally.

 

You should, wings are like banners, antanie, and etc (which for me at least drop pod pannels count as) and are decoritive and ignored completely in LOS, as per the BRB, you cant shoot the wings, and the wings cant stop you from shooting whats behind it. If I made assault terminators who all had giant banners wider than the terminator and flowing down to the ground and then lineing them up to make a solid wall protecting those behind them, well someone would have quiet yet firm words with me. Its not any different, just more blatant.

No Frosty, according to pg. 16 of the BRB you cannot shoot at a target if all you can see are banners, wings, antennae etc, but you do not ignore them for what you could see behind them if they werent there.

 

While you cannot target a hive tyrant by its wings alone, you certainly cannot deny the zoanthrop behind it a cover save if you cant see more than half of it, and if between a bush and the wings you cant see it... then you cant shoot it.

 

I would argue that page 21, dealing with decorative items on a base not counting as cover, would state that you can indeed see it, and that these do not block LOS

[Isryion]

Well lets not be so keen to call one another's thoughts on this lame please. There are at least two other topics on this very subject if you care to use searchy to seek them out to se what conclusions were reached before.

 

The fact remains there are no rules that require transport vehicle models' doors (drop pod or whatever) to be physically opened to allow the embarked troops out. Check the diagram and rules on p67 – I see no open doors on that Rhino. As such it's hard to rule on issues such as TLOS etc as presumably the open doors could be 'closed' before the enemy shooting phase to re-block TLOS as again no rules to support this one way or the other :cry: .

 

Rules-wise, what constitutes a blown hatch anyway? [no rules]. Can it be closed? [no rules]. Can we choose to "blow" the hatches furthest from an enemy shooting unit and leave others closed? [no rules]. What happens in restricted terrain where doors can't actually be physically opened? [no rules]. So with no rules how can we successfully rule for TLOS?

 

All we have is a bit of fluff regarding blown hatches and some head scratching regarding [possible] RAI and model(s) that a gamer chooses to have either doors that open or doors that are glued shut – and either model is valid rule-wise.

 

Best option if pods are being used: dicscuss with opponent before the game starts.

 

Cheers

I

 

To be fair, I think my original question has been answered and the rest of this discussion is probably a bit off topic even though it relates to the ramps.

[Gentlemanloser]

What happens in restricted terrain where doors can't actually be physically opened? [no rules].

 

There are actually rules for this.

 

Either, you ignore the petals, as they are purely decorative.

 

Or they are part of the hull, you can disembark form any point of them, and if they open into Impassable Terran/other units due to restricted terrain, you take a DS mishap.

 

That's the two choices here.

 

Edit: And in the second option, if you glue them shut, you're modeling for an advantage, as you're significantly reducing the footprint of your DP to lessen DS mishaps, and to gain TLoS shenanigans, exactly like decorative banners, walls and wings. ;)

[Grey Mage]

TLOS is TLOS though, more than once its kept my LFs from hitting the same target as the Dread I threw down.

 

I dont complain when my opponents giant set of wings obscures his carnifexii, and I dont expect complaints when my DPs obscure things as they do naturally.

 

You should, wings are like banners, antanie, and etc (which for me at least drop pod pannels count as) and are decoritive and ignored completely in LOS, as per the BRB, you cant shoot the wings, and the wings cant stop you from shooting whats behind it. If I made assault terminators who all had giant banners wider than the terminator and flowing down to the ground and then lineing them up to make a solid wall protecting those behind them, well someone would have quiet yet firm words with me. Its not any different, just more blatant.

No Frosty, according to pg. 16 of the BRB you cannot shoot at a target if all you can see are banners, wings, antennae etc, but you do not ignore them for what you could see behind them if they werent there.

 

While you cannot target a hive tyrant by its wings alone, you certainly cannot deny the zoanthrop behind it a cover save if you cant see more than half of it, and if between a bush and the wings you cant see it... then you cant shoot it.

 

I would argue that page 21, dealing with decorative items on a base not counting as cover, would state that you can indeed see it, and that these do not block LOS

Its not something placed on the base though, its part of the model... this isnt a rock, or a space marine helmet.

 

Edit: And in the second option, if you glue them shut, you're modeling for an advantage, as you're significantly reducing the footprint of your DP to lessen DS mishaps, and to gain TLoS shenanigans, exactly like decorative banners, walls and wings. ^_^

Nah, because by the arguments presented here the footprint is exactly the same while the model deep strikes, the doors would only open after you deployed it.

 

And a winged hive tyrant isnt modeling for advantage, its WYSIWYG required.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nah, because by the arguments presented here the footprint is exactly the same while the model deep strikes, the doors would only open after you deployed it.

 

Yeah, the open after you land, if you choose the reasonable option that the doors/petals are decoratie, and have no effect in game.

 

If you choose the option that the doors are part of the hull, provide cover, block LoS, and you can disembark from them, then you need to deploy your DP with them open. As they form part of the DP's hull, and it's footprint.

 

And a winged hive tyrant isnt modeling for advantage, its WYSIWYG required.

 

They don't have to be modeled splayed wide. But you can, for artistic licence. If you do, it doesn't impact the game at all, as the BRB states.

 

You can model the wings any way you want. Folded shut, close to the sides if you so wish. But like antenna, Banners and other decorative stuff (like tall bases), they don't impact gameplay. Becuase if they did, you're modeling for an advantage.