Drop Pod Ramps?

[Isiah]

What happens in restricted terrain where doors can't actually be physically opened? [no rules].

 

There are actually rules for this.

 

Either, you ignore the petals, as they are purely decorative.

 

Or they are part of the hull, you can disembark form any point of them, and if they open into Impassable Terran/other units due to restricted terrain, you take a DS mishap.

 

That's the two choices here.

 

 

There are no rules covering this per se. You need to sort out with an opponent beforehand. As you have pointed out the two choices: a proper rule wouldn't allow for this kind of 'choice' on such an issue.

 

Edit: And in the second option, if you glue them shut, you're modeling for an advantage, as you're significantly reducing the footprint of your DP to lessen DS mishaps, and to gain TLoS shenanigans, exactly like decorative banners, walls and wings. ;)

 

Again no rules to support that glueing doors shut is modelling to advantage. There are no rules for the doors of DPs or any other transport for that matter. You are free to gule them or not how you like :P.

[Agrab]

TLOS is TLOS though, more than once its kept my LFs from hitting the same target as the Dread I threw down.

 

I dont complain when my opponents giant set of wings obscures his carnifexii, and I dont expect complaints when my DPs obscure things as they do naturally.

 

You should, wings are like banners, antanie, and etc (which for me at least drop pod pannels count as) and are decoritive and ignored completely in LOS, as per the BRB, you cant shoot the wings, and the wings cant stop you from shooting whats behind it. If I made assault terminators who all had giant banners wider than the terminator and flowing down to the ground and then lineing them up to make a solid wall protecting those behind them, well someone would have quiet yet firm words with me. Its not any different, just more blatant.

No Frosty, according to pg. 16 of the BRB you cannot shoot at a target if all you can see are banners, wings, antennae etc, but you do not ignore them for what you could see behind them if they werent there.

 

While you cannot target a hive tyrant by its wings alone, you certainly cannot deny the zoanthrop behind it a cover save if you cant see more than half of it, and if between a bush and the wings you cant see it... then you cant shoot it.

 

I would argue that page 21, dealing with decorative items on a base not counting as cover, would state that you can indeed see it, and that these do not block LOS

Its not something placed on the base though, its part of the model... this isnt a rock, or a space marine helmet.

 

Edit: And in the second option, if you glue them shut, you're modeling for an advantage, as you're significantly reducing the footprint of your DP to lessen DS mishaps, and to gain TLoS shenanigans, exactly like decorative banners, walls and wings. :P

Nah, because by the arguments presented here the footprint is exactly the same while the model deep strikes, the doors would only open after you deployed it.

 

And a winged hive tyrant isnt modeling for advantage, its WYSIWYG required.

 

"not allowed to bring cover with them"

that is cover, and they are carrying it around. Ergo, it is not allowed

either it is purely for fun, and doesn't block or it breaks the rules, and sportsmanship

[Gentlemanloser]

Isiah, I feel that "no longer a sealed enviroment" (part of the rules of a SM DP, and not fluff), while not explicitly a 'named' rule, does point to DPs doors being open, and remaining open.

 

Again no rules to support that glueing doors shut is modelling to advantage. There are no rules for the doors of DPs or any other transport for that matter. You are free to gule them or not how you like.

 

This is just the same as being free to model on 7" tall bases, or massive wings, or any other such modelling for an advantage. Doors or not. It's the same as gluing an extendable ramp to the fornt of your LR to increase disembarkation range. Where's the 'rule' to stop you?

 

If you really want to get, er, technicall, I'm sure my assembly instructions for my DPs listed the "Don't Glue Here!" sign for the doors. So gluing them shut would be against DW design for assembly of the Pods, and then using a glued pod to block LoS would be modeling for an advantge. Which is against the rules. :P

 

But all this is moot (including the massive deployment range from using the end of a petal/door), if you choose the much more reasonable, supported by fluff and non explicit rules, option that DPs open, and *remain* open from the moment of thier deployment.

[Agrab]

Guys, there are one of three rules (pick one) which require them to COUNT as being open:

1) The hatched blow open - this is a rule, indicating that the hatches (doors) are, well, open

2) No longer sealed - this is again a rule, indicating that there must be some sort of opening (arguable that it means only one door, can continue that later)

3) Items on base as decorative (if not a weapon or hull, it is decorative) can not count as cover OR block LOS

 

if you simply want to model them closed for fun, fine, but you can do LOS through it

[Acebaur]

The petals of the DP are clear terrain in just the same way that the rear door of a Rhino is also clear terrain.

 

 

I believe that DP's should give cover but not block line of sight as if the doors were open(if they are glued shut) as that is the way it is meant to be played in my opinion. However, if someone really wants to play that their DP blocks LOS then I'll let them but that ability comes at a price. Namely, the weapon inside cannot shoot. Modeling it on the outside of the DP is illegal and modeling for an advantage. The DP has a specific place for it's weapon and putting it somewhere else is no more legal than gluing your LRC's hurricane bolters to the front of the frag assault launchers.

 

I can't seem to find it but I remember reading somewhere about DP's doors being glued shut and suggestions on how to play it from GW. They basically said what I've just said above regarding LOS and shooting. Anyone else remember reading it?

[Grey Mage]

Guys, there are one of three rules (pick one) which require them to COUNT as being open:

1) The hatched blow open - this is a rule, indicating that the hatches (doors) are, well, open

2) No longer sealed - this is again a rule, indicating that there must be some sort of opening (arguable that it means only one door, can continue that later)

3) Items on base as decorative (if not a weapon or hull, it is decorative) can not count as cover OR block LOS

 

if you simply want to model them closed for fun, fine, but you can do LOS through it

Not so- if its part of the standard model, and put on normally, your not modeling for advantage- your following the rules. The rules provide for decorative things on the bases not effecting LOS, not for functional things on the model itself.

 

You cannot cherry-pick when you can shoot through a vehicle and when you cannot. TLOS is really just that. Items on a base are not parts of the model- they are items... on the base. Your going outside RAW if you choose to deny someone because of part of their model. Wings, as an example, are simply not part of the base, and they dont provide cover to the model they are a part of- but that doesnt stop them in any way from blocking LOS to the things behind them as normal.

 

There are simply to many holes here- you want my doors to be blown, to be an "unsealed enviroment"? Ok, 1/8th" of an inch is how far theyll open, and air can freely flow through them- you still cant see through my drop pod.

 

@Acebur- yes, I read that at one point... but I cant find the article, so whos to care?

[Agrab]

Guys, there are one of three rules (pick one) which require them to COUNT as being open:

1) The hatched blow open - this is a rule, indicating that the hatches (doors) are, well, open

2) No longer sealed - this is again a rule, indicating that there must be some sort of opening (arguable that it means only one door, can continue that later)

3) Items on base as decorative (if not a weapon or hull, it is decorative) can not count as cover OR block LOS

 

if you simply want to model them closed for fun, fine, but you can do LOS through it

Not so- if its part of the standard model, and put on normally, your not modeling for advantage- your following the rules. The rules provide for decorative things on the bases not effecting LOS, not for functional things on the model itself.

 

You cannot cherry-pick when you can shoot through a vehicle and when you cannot. TLOS is really just that. Items on a base are not parts of the model- they are items... on the base. Your going outside RAW if you choose to deny someone because of part of their model. Wings, as an example, are simply not part of the base, and they dont provide cover to the model they are a part of- but that doesnt stop them in any way from blocking LOS to the things behind them as normal.

 

There are simply to many holes here- you want my doors to be blown, to be an "unsealed enviroment"? Ok, 1/8th" of an inch is how far theyll open, and air can freely flow through them- you still cant see through my drop pod.

 

@Acebur- yes, I read that at one point... but I cant find the article, so whos to care?

 

If you build a Predator with a fixed-in-place turret, does that not mean it can't shoot behind? No, of course not. It is assumed to be able to rotate 360 degrees. It's the same with pods. The doors are assumed to have been blown, whether they've been modelled open or shut.

 

Doors are decorative, period. The rules state that wings, which are functional, are decoration and do not count for anything whatsoever. Doors are the same way - otherwise we could deploy 2 inches from them

 

You can't cherry pick rules. The rules say that it is open, that it is unsealed, and that doors to not matter one bit. Here you are ignoring them because you want to model something a certain way, arguably an illegal way

[Agrab]

The petals of the DP are clear terrain in just the same way that the rear door of a Rhino is also clear terrain.

 

 

I believe that DP's should give cover but not block line of sight as if the doors were open(if they are glued shut) as that is the way it is meant to be played in my opinion. However, if someone really wants to play that their DP blocks LOS then I'll let them but that ability comes at a price. Namely, the weapon inside cannot shoot. Modeling it on the outside of the DP is illegal and modeling for an advantage. The DP has a specific place for it's weapon and putting it somewhere else is no more legal than gluing your LRC's hurricane bolters to the front of the frag assault launchers.

 

I can't seem to find it but I remember reading somewhere about DP's doors being glued shut and suggestions on how to play it from GW. They basically said what I've just said above regarding LOS and shooting. Anyone else remember reading it?

 

it was unofficial and thus useless

[stinkenheim]

ok this is getting a bit off topic now with the discussion about wings and stuff, but ive read the LOS rules and it says, 'LOS must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body... Sometimes, all that may be visible of a model is a weapon, an antenna, a banner or some other such ornament he is wearing or carrying (including its wings and tail, even though they are part of its body). in these cases, the model is not visible. These rules are intended to ensure that models don't get penalised for having impressive standards, blades, guns, majestic wings etc.'

 

then in the Cover save section, under intervening models it states 'If a target is partially hidden from the firers view by other models , it receives a 4+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain. This does not mean the interveneing models literally stop the shots, but rather they obscure the sight of the firers or otherwise spoil their aim... Scenic rocks and other decorative elements that players might have placed on the base of their models are ignored from the point of view of determining cover (you cannot take your cover with you!).'

 

nothing in their stipulates that wings are ingored for LOS or tht they do not grant a cover save, emrely that they are not classed as part of the body when determining if you can shoot someone. the only mention of part of a model not granting a save is decoraion on the base.

its the same as if devastators were trying to shoot through a command squad at something on the other side. if the banner on the command squad blocked LOS then the enemy would receive a cover save as the banner is not a 'decorative element placed on the base'.

 

your comment about turrets that are glued in place is specifically mentioned in the rule book on p 59 and says '..In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on thier mountings...'

 

there are many things that could obscure LOS to a target, whilst at the same time not be defined as part of a models body, weapons for example. I could model someone with a large shield held out to his side. if that then blocked LOS to say a librarian behind him the lib would get a cover save as per the rules for intervening models.

i also challenge you to find any wings made by GW that would fit a hive tyrant that are not spread apart. You may wish to sculpt your own so that they are folded by the models side but you cannot claim that someone else is 'modelling for advantage' because the only wings they could get were spread apart. Would you argue with someone that true-scaled an army? they made the models bigger which means that they obscure more of what is behind them than something else, does that also equate to modelling for advantage?

What about land raiders, we all know where the pictures suggest that the wepons go, but wht about those that mount the lascannons on the front hatch rather than the rear, is that modelling for an advantage? they certainly gained an inch or so in terms of range, not much but it can make all the difference.

 

there are very few things that i would say fall under that category and most people do not put any thought into what they are making other than whether it looks cool, i know i fall under that category. I put my space wolves on scenic bases and convert them heavily, not for an advantage but because they look cooler, if it means they get seen more easily then so be it, if it means they can see over more terrain then added bonus but its certainly not something which i planned for.

[Gaz1858]

To be honest i feel it just really comes down to "spirit of the game". Both parties must agree beforehand on how they are going to play their drop pod and if they disagree then dice for it.

 

Id take the personal view that they should fold down and the drop pos dhould be seen through and the doors would provide cover for infantry shielded by it. If someone has glued their doors shut then thats that.

[Gentlemanloser]

nothing in their stipulates that wings are ingored for LOS or tht they do not grant a cover save, emrely that they are not classed as part of the body when determining if you can shoot someone. the only mention of part of a model not granting a save is decoraion on the base

 

Becuase that's talking about the target, not the intervening model.

 

The target can't be modled to be (for exmaple only) standing behind a stone wall, which is glued to thier base.

 

If people really want to let *anything* on one mini block LoS to anything behind them, so long as it's not glued to the base, I'd like to see someone run a marine army with them all carrying 48" wide Banners glued to thier backpacks to the next official tournament and see how that's ruled for stopping TLoS.

 

(Just have them on a squad/IC character or two at the front of your army, and shield the rest of it utterly from emeny fire. Just swivel them in your turn so you can shot, and swivel them back after you're done)

 

there are very few things that i would say fall under that category and most people do not put any thought into what they are making other than whether it looks cool, i know i fall under that category. I put my space wolves on scenic bases and convert them heavily, not for an advantage but because they look cooler, if it means they get seen more easily then so be it, if it means they can see over more terrain then added bonus but its certainly not something which i planned for.

 

I was under the impression that most who do that, when itcomes down to gaming, ignore the extra hieght / other stuff from scenic modeling, so as to no claim any advantage. In essence, they 'count as' a normal mini.

 

And no you won't find unsplayed wings by GW. But again, most I know won't claim the wigns (as they aren't viable targets to be shot at) block LoS either... They count as not being there, so as they don't interfere in any advantageous way.

[Acebaur]

The petals of the DP are clear terrain in just the same way that the rear door of a Rhino is also clear terrain.

 

 

I believe that DP's should give cover but not block line of sight as if the doors were open(if they are glued shut) as that is the way it is meant to be played in my opinion. However, if someone really wants to play that their DP blocks LOS then I'll let them but that ability comes at a price. Namely, the weapon inside cannot shoot. Modeling it on the outside of the DP is illegal and modeling for an advantage. The DP has a specific place for it's weapon and putting it somewhere else is no more legal than gluing your LRC's hurricane bolters to the front of the frag assault launchers.

 

I can't seem to find it but I remember reading somewhere about DP's doors being glued shut and suggestions on how to play it from GW. They basically said what I've just said above regarding LOS and shooting. Anyone else remember reading it?

 

it was unofficial and thus useless

 

 

So is every FAQ released by GW. Remember that only the Errata is RAW. All other parts of the FAQ are merely their suggestion on a particular rule. However, we are all so starved for clarification on stuff that we all take them as RAW.

[Valerian]

The petals of the DP are clear terrain in just the same way that the rear door of a Rhino is also clear terrain.

 

 

I believe that DP's should give cover but not block line of sight as if the doors were open(if they are glued shut) as that is the way it is meant to be played in my opinion. However, if someone really wants to play that their DP blocks LOS then I'll let them but that ability comes at a price. Namely, the weapon inside cannot shoot. Modeling it on the outside of the DP is illegal and modeling for an advantage. The DP has a specific place for it's weapon and putting it somewhere else is no more legal than gluing your LRC's hurricane bolters to the front of the frag assault launchers.

 

I can't seem to find it but I remember reading somewhere about DP's doors being glued shut and suggestions on how to play it from GW. They basically said what I've just said above regarding LOS and shooting. Anyone else remember reading it?

 

it was unofficial and thus useless

 

 

So is every FAQ released by GW. Remember that only the Errata is RAW. All other parts of the FAQ are merely their suggestion on a particular rule. However, we are all so starved for clarification on stuff that we all take them as RAW.

 

Exactly true.

[Agrab]

The petals of the DP are clear terrain in just the same way that the rear door of a Rhino is also clear terrain.

 

 

I believe that DP's should give cover but not block line of sight as if the doors were open(if they are glued shut) as that is the way it is meant to be played in my opinion. However, if someone really wants to play that their DP blocks LOS then I'll let them but that ability comes at a price. Namely, the weapon inside cannot shoot. Modeling it on the outside of the DP is illegal and modeling for an advantage. The DP has a specific place for it's weapon and putting it somewhere else is no more legal than gluing your LRC's hurricane bolters to the front of the frag assault launchers.

 

I can't seem to find it but I remember reading somewhere about DP's doors being glued shut and suggestions on how to play it from GW. They basically said what I've just said above regarding LOS and shooting. Anyone else remember reading it?

 

it was unofficial and thus useless

 

 

So is every FAQ released by GW. Remember that only the Errata is RAW. All other parts of the FAQ are merely their suggestion on a particular rule. However, we are all so starved for clarification on stuff that we all take them as RAW.

 

in the case, DakkaDakka released their 'faq' which was the optional one

[Albion de Heaven]

BTW if modelling a drop pod with doors closed and do not allow opponent firing throught them is not a modelling advantage, next time i will model on tyhe back of my demon prince/hive tyrant a couple of wings so big to fully cover a land raider, since you can't target them but them will block your LOS, and moreover the GW does not sell winged models so i don't have any reference

[Agrab]

BTW if modelling a drop pod with doors closed and do not allow opponent firing throught them is not a modelling advantage, next time i will model on tyhe back of my demon prince/hive tyrant a couple of wings so big to fully cover a land raider, since you can't target them but them will block your LOS, and moreover the GW does not sell winged models so i don't have any reference

 

While I agree with this reasoning, a quick look trhough the BRB last night indicated no location where it is illegal to model for advantage. I would not play with a person who ever plays this way though (regarding the DP, and I run them often in my lists), as it is clearly against the written rules, as well as the RAI

[Frosty the Pyro]

While I agree with this reasoning, a quick look trhough the BRB last night indicated no location where it is illegal to model for advantage. I would not play with a person who ever plays this way though (regarding the DP, and I run them often in my lists), as it is clearly against the written rules, as well as the RAI

 

I recall there being something in there about modeling for advantage, not an explicit disalowing but more of a "try to avoid it." And a sugestion that if a custom peice would effect gameplay, then have a standard peice you can swap for it to make measurements and then put back the awesome peice. I may do an end to end read of the BRB again sometime, if I do I will quote pages, untill then, enjoy whatever authority my vauge memories have.

[Agrab]

While I agree with this reasoning, a quick look trhough the BRB last night indicated no location where it is illegal to model for advantage. I would not play with a person who ever plays this way though (regarding the DP, and I run them often in my lists), as it is clearly against the written rules, as well as the RAI

 

I recall there being something in there about modeling for advantage, not an explicit disalowing but more of a "try to avoid it." And a sugestion that if a custom peice would effect gameplay, then have a standard peice you can swap for it to make measurements and then put back the awesome peice. I may do an end to end read of the BRB again sometime, if I do I will quote pages, untill then, enjoy whatever authority my vauge memories have.

 

any drastic change to the height, base, or core model is required to be checked. No rules about not being able to carry huge-ass decorations around without chekcing (in fact, it clearly says you can, but that they can not protect the thing carrying them (only on a base, if held in hand you could hide yourself))

[Grey Mage]

BTW if modelling a drop pod with doors closed and do not allow opponent firing throught them is not a modelling advantage, next time i will model on tyhe back of my demon prince/hive tyrant a couple of wings so big to fully cover a land raider, since you can't target them but them will block your LOS, and moreover the GW does not sell winged models so i don't have any reference

GW doesnt sell winged models? Your missing alot.

 

Bloodthirsters, Lords of Change, Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Balrogs, Pegasus Knights, Harpies, Gargoyles, sanquinairy gaurd.... just off the top of my head.

 

Then theres FW wings for Tyrants.... etc etc etc.

[Frosty the Pyro]

any drastic change to the height, base, or core model is required to be checked. No rules about not being able to carry huge-ass decorations around without chekcing (in fact, it clearly says you can, but that they can not protect the thing carrying them (only on a base, if held in hand you could hide yourself))

 

I would think giant banners/wings etc would count as part of the core model

[Grey Mage]

Problem being that theyre specificly listed as not counting.

[Albion de Heaven]

BTW if modelling a drop pod with doors closed and do not allow opponent firing throught them is not a modelling advantage, next time i will model on tyhe back of my demon prince/hive tyrant a couple of wings so big to fully cover a land raider, since you can't target them but them will block your LOS, and moreover the GW does not sell winged models so i don't have any reference

GW doesnt sell winged models? Your missing alot.

 

Bloodthirsters, Lords of Change, Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Balrogs, Pegasus Knights, Harpies, Gargoyles, sanquinairy gaurd.... just off the top of my head.

 

Then theres FW wings for Tyrants.... etc etc etc.

 

 

I meaned winged model for demon prince model or hive tyrant (i don't care forge world flyrant since is not a GW product even if it is allowed... and also beacause it costs 70£).

 

But i can take the old metalic not-winged demon prince

greenstuff him some big wings, but not spread open, i can make them big enought to be totally folded around hm, like a sleeping bat.

 

Than will put him in the middle of the field and tell that you will not be able to shoot him... you can see only the wings and nothing else since the wings block line of sight, and wings cannot be targeted <_<:D:D

 

of course i will never do something like that but it's clearly RAW

 

 

p.s.

While I agree with this reasoning, a quick look trhough the BRB last night indicated no location where it is illegal to model for advantage. I would not play with a person who ever plays this way though (regarding the DP, and I run them often in my lists), as it is clearly against the written rules, as well as the RAI

 

I checked again and it's sadly true, they only talk about baes. BTW I don't think that there will be and tournament that will alow you to go with your close combact MC modified to be layed on their bases to avoid to be shooted ;)

[Paladus]

I say if you are both agreed on it it doesn't really matter. I would never glue my drop pod doors shut as it goes against the fluff and my armies are fluff based however it is only fluff. Quick question though, If a drop pod lands so close to a building that a door is up against a wall do we think all doors still open? Would the force of the explosion be enough to break through the walls? And would the type of building, fortification, ruin, imperial, agri, have any bearing on this?

[Grey Mage]

I say if you are both agreed on it it doesn't really matter. I would never glue my drop pod doors shut as it goes against the fluff and my armies are fluff based however it is only fluff. Quick question though, If a drop pod lands so close to a building that a door is up against a wall do we think all doors still open? Would the force of the explosion be enough to break through the walls? And would the type of building, fortification, ruin, imperial, agri, have any bearing on this?

Yet another reason my doors dont open- we play alot of city fight. They dont cause misshap, since youd open them afterwords... and they dont stop your guys from deploying, since its an open-topped vehicle. All in all they just get in the way of the game.

[stinkenheim]

QUOTE (Paladus @ Jun 4 2010, 08:33 AM)

I say if you are both agreed on it it doesn't really matter. I would never glue my drop pod doors shut as it goes against the fluff and my armies are fluff based however it is only fluff. Quick question though, If a drop pod lands so close to a building that a door is up against a wall do we think all doors still open? Would the force of the explosion be enough to break through the walls? And would the type of building, fortification, ruin, imperial, agri, have any bearing on this?

 

in several novels i have read, there have been instances where drop pods have landed in buildings and the doors have been jammed or unable to open fully. not a rule, but certainly a fluff indication that you dont need to open all the doors if terrain is preventing them from opening fully.