Drop Pod Ramps?

[Agrab]

As the doors are only decoration they would not cause mishaps. If there are units nearby, we close em (but count as open) until they can lay out well. A building, just leave it up an assume it is open

 

 

 

As to Pyro saying "I would think giant banners/wings etc would count as part of the core model"

the problem is that they are listed specifically as not being part of the core model, but decoration (see LOS for shooting)

[Gentlemanloser]

in several novels i have read, there have been instances where drop pods have landed in buildings and the doors have been jammed or unable to open fully.

 

I'm sure I remember a few novels where they slam into buildings, mostly destroying said buildings. And possibly some where they land on people.

[Acebaur]

I meaned winged model for demon prince model or hive tyrant (i don't care forge world flyrant since is not a GW product even if it is allowed... and also beacause it costs 70£).

 

Actually GW owns Forge World, so it is in fact a GW product.

 

But i can take the old metalic not-winged demon prince

greenstuff him some big wings, but not spread open, i can make them big enought to be totally folded around hm, like a sleeping bat.

 

Than will put him in the middle of the field and tell that you will not be able to shoot him... you can see only the wings and nothing else since the wings block line of sight, and wings cannot be targeted :):D:D

 

of course i will never do something like that but it's clearly RAW

 

You are clearly very wrong here. Read page 21 in the BRB and you will find that "you can't take your cover with you" Things like wings can't provide cover for the model they are attached to.

[Agrab]

I meaned winged model for demon prince model or hive tyrant (i don't care forge world flyrant since is not a GW product even if it is allowed... and also beacause it costs 70£).

 

Actually GW owns Forge World, so it is in fact a GW product.

 

But i can take the old metalic not-winged demon prince

greenstuff him some big wings, but not spread open, i can make them big enought to be totally folded around hm, like a sleeping bat.

 

Than will put him in the middle of the field and tell that you will not be able to shoot him... you can see only the wings and nothing else since the wings block line of sight, and wings cannot be targeted :):D:D

 

of course i will never do something like that but it's clearly RAW

 

You are clearly very wrong here. Read page 21 in the BRB and you will find that "you can't take your cover with you" Things like wings can't provide cover for the model they are attached to.

 

didn't you point out that it is talking abouit scenery on the base?

[Acebaur]

It doesn't matter, you still can't bring your cover with you whether or not it's attached to the base. The point of the rule is to prevent exactly what he is talking about doing(not that he would, but I'm sure there is some asshat out there who would try). It'd be the same as if you said your MC was carrying a large tree around with it to provide cover. Can't be done.

[Agrab]

It doesn't matter, you still can't bring your cover with you whether or not it's attached to the base. The point of the rule is to prevent exactly what he is talking about doing(not that he would, but I'm sure there is some asshat out there who would try). It'd be the same as if you said your MC was carrying a large tree around with it to provide cover. Can't be done.

 

If you are allowed to model something counter to how it is described to block LOS I can certainly do the same with a banner, no different

[Grey Mage]

*scratches head* Of course, all of this hypothetical questioning is interesting in all... but its also irrelevant for the most part.

 

Your talking about unusual conversions, and on a banner as large as your talking about - wich also would probly be unstable- Im interested in where you think your going to find a GW banner that big?

[Agrab]

*scratches head* Of course, all of this hypothetical questioning is interesting in all... but its also irrelevant for the most part.

 

Your talking about unusual conversions, and on a banner as large as your talking about - wich also would probly be unstable- Im interested in where you think your going to find a GW banner that big?

combine several

also, no rule stipulating i must use their equipement and can not make my own (or, for that matter, drape an american flag across it)

[Grey Mage]

*scratches head* Of course, all of this hypothetical questioning is interesting in all... but its also irrelevant for the most part.

 

Your talking about unusual conversions, and on a banner as large as your talking about - wich also would probly be unstable- Im interested in where you think your going to find a GW banner that big?

combine several

also, no rule stipulating i must use their equipement and can not make my own (or, for that matter, drape an american flag across it)

Yeah.... unless you want legal minis in your tournament- in wich case its 50%+ GW stuff....

 

Still, its also signficantly different to have a problematic conversion, as opposed to using a GW stock model.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Not a rant on anyone personally, but seriously guys is it really hard to play a game logically? I mean, a huge banner might block LOS and give you an advantage, but why? Are you really that desperate to win that you have to resort to such outlandish ideas? Would a space marine seriously do that? No. Glitches and exploits are for video games, not table top games.

 

Personally, a drop pod's doors were meant to open. It's these minute details when playing a game that always makes the game seem right and proper. If it gets in the way of a game where it's more work to open the wee little doors and plop it on the ground then fine. Seriously, it may seem very childish to you, but taking away my right to shoot through a drop pod just seems to make the game a little more bland. Anyway I do agree this should be noted upon prior to the game. As long as you told me about your pods then I'd agree because the inside of those things are a hassle to paint! But I'd have to thrash you because you're making the game bland :whoops:

[Paladus]

I to have read some novels that indicate both points and was wondering if anyone had considered the idea that type of building would affect the result. For example an imperial or chaos bastion would block the doors but a ruin or an ork fortification etc. would be broken through. This seems to make the results a little more lifelike which is nice. As to large banners blocking LOS i would say they should be discounted as they are likely to blow in the wind and you could therefore trace LOS when they move. Even on a world with little wind the impact of huge balls of metal, carrying 10 tonnes of Astartes, falling from the sky would throw up some air currents. Also wings would flap but only sometimes so this is more difficult and they are actually an upgrade and they are a biological feature so they could be shot. On the whole i would say that if u can shoot them then it should have some bearing on drawing TLOS.

[Grey Mage]

Not a rant on anyone personally, but seriously guys is it really hard to play a game logically? I mean, a huge banner might block LOS and give you an advantage, but why? Are you really that desperate to win that you have to resort to such outlandish ideas? Would a space marine seriously do that? No. Glitches and exploits are for video games, not table top games.

 

Personally, a drop pod's doors were meant to open. It's these minute details when playing a game that always makes the game seem right and proper. If it gets in the way of a game where it's more work to open the wee little doors and plop it on the ground then fine. Seriously, it may seem very childish to you, but taking away my right to shoot through a drop pod just seems to make the game a little more bland. Anyway I do agree this should be noted upon prior to the game. As long as you told me about your pods then I'd agree because the inside of those things are a hassle to paint! But I'd have to thrash you because you're making the game bland :P

See, and I think you have no more right to shoot through my DP than I have a right to shoot through your rhino.

 

But yes, Im a full disclosure kind of person, and Ill spend as much time covering rules with new players, or as a new player, as I will playing my first game with them.

[Acebaur]

See, and I think you have no more right to shoot through my DP than I have a right to shoot through your rhino.

 

 

Except a rhino doesn't have 5 enormous doors that blow open when it drives onto the battlefield. :P

[Grey Mage]

See, and I think you have no more right to shoot through my DP than I have a right to shoot through your rhino.

 

 

Except a rhino doesn't have 5 enormous doors that blow open when it drives onto the battlefield. :lol:

Neither does my DP. It cant drive anywhere :P.

 

On a more serious note, is anyone still trying to use the rule that if you shoot from the top hatch of a rhino its open topped?

[Reglor]

On a more serious note, is anyone still trying to use the rule that if you shoot from the top hatch of a rhino its open topped?

 

If you are using Inquisitor forces with a save worse than 3+ you better be.

[Zynk Kaladin]

On a more serious note, is anyone still trying to use the rule that if you shoot from the top hatch of a rhino its open topped?

 

Is a space marine without a helmet considered open-topped?

 

See, and I think you have no more right to shoot through my DP than I have a right to shoot through your rhino.

 

Drop Pods:

 

"Fire Points and Access Points: Once deployed the Drop Pod is no longer a sealed environment[...]"

 

The rest of this rule basically says its open topped. However, I would argue the "no longer a sealed environment" is self explanatory and which means I can shoot through it. The Rhinos, however, are still considered a sealed environment because the rhino rules are different than a drop pod's.

 

Yes, I do have a right to shoot through your drop pod :lol:

[Paladus]

On a more serious note, is anyone still trying to use the rule that if you shoot from the top hatch of a rhino its open topped?

 

Actually truthfully i had forgotten that rule entirely but it seems to make sense so in future I will make an effort to utilize that rule in game. Oh and I would say that you can draw LOS through the five hollow openings on the DPs sides. I will stick to that because it's empty. :lol:

[Gentlemanloser]

On a more serious note, is anyone still trying to use the rule that if you shoot from the top hatch of a rhino its open topped?

 

Yes.

 

DH player, as mentioned above.

 

But, no one wants to let me fire the whole squad out of the top of an open topped Rhino...

[Grey Mage]

On a more serious note, is anyone still trying to use the rule that if you shoot from the top hatch of a rhino its open topped?

 

Is a space marine without a helmet considered open-topped?

 

See, and I think you have no more right to shoot through my DP than I have a right to shoot through your rhino.

 

Drop Pods:

 

"Fire Points and Access Points: Once deployed the Drop Pod is no longer a sealed environment[...]"

 

The rest of this rule basically says its open topped. However, I would argue the "no longer a sealed environment" is self explanatory and which means I can shoot through it. The Rhinos, however, are still considered a sealed environment because the rhino rules are different than a drop pod's.

 

Yes, I do have a right to shoot through your drop pod :D

No, you dont.

 

Frankly, a Leman Russ Battle Tank is not a sealed enviroment, nor is any rhino with a marine sticking out the top with a stormbolter- sealed is an enviromental effect, and has nothing at all to do with the rules.

 

In fact, I dare you to find me a definition of "sealed enviroment" thats actually stated in the rules anywhere. You want it to mean that, but that doesnt mean it does.

[Zynk Kaladin]

If you are arguing a rhino with a marine sticking out of it with a half cm gap is equivalent to a 5 open sided drop pod with 3.2 cm gaps then I have no counter argument.

 

Yea the rules don't have a definition of "sealed environment" anywhere. They also don't include an English dictionary if I recall. It's not that I want it to mean that, but logically the original intent of a drop pod is to open after landing. A rhino doesn't have to keep its doors open after it deploys the marines, unlike the DP. I mean nothing is preventing me from hanging my land raider off the ceiling over the battlefield. It sure wasn't meant to do that.

 

For a Space Wolf, you're very "by the book".

[rat of vengence]

Not a rant on anyone personally, but seriously guys is it really hard to play a game logically? I mean, a huge banner might block LOS and give you an advantage, but why? Are you really that desperate to win that you have to resort to such outlandish ideas? Would a space marine seriously do that? No. Glitches and exploits are for video games, not table top games.

 

Personally, a drop pod's doors were meant to open. It's these minute details when playing a game that always makes the game seem right and proper. If it gets in the way of a game where it's more work to open the wee little doors and plop it on the ground then fine. Seriously, it may seem very childish to you, but taking away my right to shoot through a drop pod just seems to make the game a little more bland. Anyway I do agree this should be noted upon prior to the game. As long as you told me about your pods then I'd agree because the inside of those things are a hassle to paint! But I'd have to thrash you because you're making the game bland :P

This ^

 

I know this is the RAW official rules. But look at how debatable the OR are! Surely we could go with whatever makes for a reasonable decsion that makes the game a more realistic escape from reality (I know that doesn't make sense at first glance, but think about it...)

Warhammerz is about the cinematic moments, imagining the pod blazing through the sky leaving an impact crater, hatches being blown open and marines pouring out rapid fire as they disembark.

 

I pity people who play it as if it is chess, where is the imagination!!!

 

 

I have two pods. One is GW, and the doors open. When it lands, I open all the doors that can (terrain allowing) and more or less ignore them from that point.

The other pod is a balsa and cardboard one I made at the beginning of 4th ed. It doesn't have opening doors. I used to love hiding a squad from view behind it, but the rules have moved on. I now count it as giving a 4+ to units behind it. It seems the most fair way to do it.

 

Alternatively, I could go all lawyer and find a way to get as much advantage as I can... :)

 

RoV

[Grey Mage]

If you are arguing a rhino with a marine sticking out of it with a half cm gap is equivalent to a 5 open sided drop pod with 3.2 cm gaps then I have no counter argument.

 

Yea the rules don't have a definition of "sealed environment" anywhere. They also don't include an English dictionary if I recall. It's not that I want it to mean that, but logically the original intent of a drop pod is to open after landing. A rhino doesn't have to keep its doors open after it deploys the marines, unlike the DP. I mean nothing is preventing me from hanging my land raider off the ceiling over the battlefield. It sure wasn't meant to do that.

 

For a Space Wolf, you're very "by the book".

No, but Im wary of people telling me how it should be because of a preconceived notion with no actual rules to back it up. You want "no longer a sealed enviroment" to mean you can shoot through my drop pod, when its just as easily an explanation for "open topped" or simply a peice of fluff.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I know this is the RAW official rules. But look at how debatable the OR are! Surely we could go with whatever makes for a reasonable decsion that makes the game a more realistic escape from reality (I know that doesn't make sense at first glance, but think about it...)

Warhammerz is about the cinematic moments, imagining the pod blazing through the sky leaving an impact crater, hatches being blown open and marines pouring out rapid fire as they disembark.

 

It's funny because that was Games Workshop's original intent for Warhammer. BRB page 16 "We have chosen True Line of sight because it makes the game feel much more cinematic and 'real'". They don't always make up the rules to make it some sort of high-tech chess game, to expand upon what you said.

 

My friend and I often get confused about the myriad rules in WH40K, so we make decisions based on what would logically happen in the "true" Warhammer universe.

 

No, but Im wary of people telling me how it should be because of a preconceived notion with no actual rules to back it up. You want "no longer a sealed enviroment" to mean you can shoot through my drop pod, when its just as easily an explanation for "open topped" or simply a peice of fluff.

 

Ok, ok. I can understand your position on the matter because you are right. The rules don't explicitly say a drop pod needs to open its doors. So why do it? Well, Games Workshop assumes a player would use the drop pod the way they designed it: to open. Honestly, though, in a game I wouldn't demand you to open your pod if you really didn't want to. It seems like it would be a petty demand on my part and would ruin the game. I'm sure I would have plenty of other targets to take off the table anyway :unsure: I just wanted you to note my side of the argument.

[Grey Mage]

No, but Im wary of people telling me how it should be because of a preconceived notion with no actual rules to back it up. You want "no longer a sealed enviroment" to mean you can shoot through my drop pod, when its just as easily an explanation for "open topped" or simply a peice of fluff.

 

Ok, ok. I can understand your position on the matter because you are right. The rules don't explicitly say a drop pod needs to open its doors. So why do it? Well, Games Workshop assumes a player would use the drop pod the way they designed it: to open. Honestly, though, in a game I wouldn't demand you to open your pod if you really didn't want to. It seems like it would be a petty demand on my part and would ruin the game. I'm sure I would have plenty of other targets to take off the table anyway :P I just wanted you to note my side of the argument.

And you know, Ive got no problem with people playing it that way if they want to. Heck, if its a pick up game in a strange town Ill give it five minutes of discussion and then say "ok, whatever... lets game" or switch to a rhino list if Im feeling particularly rawr.

 

But Ive had more than my fill of a couple of guys trying to say my army is illegal every tournament I bring DPs because they cant beat me on the open field, and even more with told Im being unfluffy because I dont think you can shoot through them. I dont see it happening in the RAW, and in-universe I just dont either. The thing just made an orbital drop, traveling at several hundred miles an hour right up until the moment before impact, theres going to be smoke, and dust, and probly a small crater all around the thing even with an anti-grav plate to help slow it down.... If your throwing down an imperial assassin, or a phoenix lord with BS 7, hey a 4+ cover save I could live with- its an incredibly epic character on an incredibly epic shot. But a 4+? With all the debris, battle haze, and internal peices- as the model is built- you have to shoot through? If people gave a 2+ each way Id be more comfortable with it.

[Paladus]

I must say that you do make a good point but maybe, and I may simply be over-complicating things, the turn after the DP arrives it could give 2+ then next turn 3+ as the smoke clears and then 4+ from then on for impact crater. This seems a nice cinematic concept, I personally love the idea of a DP falling to earth in a cloud of fire and smoke and then 10 tonnes of armoured Astartes streaming from a smoke ridden crater with bolters blazing or brandishing chainswords.