Drop Pod Ramps?

[Koremu]

they provide cover only through the inside, not when shooting around the hull itself

Firstly, did you really have to make three separate posts, all with a ream of quoted text, for three one line answers?

 

Secondly, yes they do count as cover for Infantry, because for Infantry cover is created if even the smallest part of the models torso or limbs are obscured - Cover for Infantry being expressly noted as being intentionally generous in the BRB.

[Agrab]

they provide cover only through the inside, not when shooting around the hull itself

Firstly, did you really have to make three separate posts, all with a ream of quoted text, for three one line answers?

 

Secondly, yes they do count as cover for Infantry, because for Infantry cover is created if even the smallest part of the models torso or limbs are obscured - Cover for Infantry being expressly noted as being intentionally generous in the BRB.

Yes I did, i hate searching for things that are not quoting me at the start, and so I don't do it to others, sorry that you had to see three whole posts.

 

Then the doors closed block LOS

to be consistent, the doors either block LOS and provide cover OR they neither block LOS nor provide cover

[Koremu]

they provide cover only through the inside, not when shooting around the hull itself

Firstly, did you really have to make three separate posts, all with a ream of quoted text, for three one line answers?

 

Secondly, yes they do count as cover for Infantry, because for Infantry cover is created if even the smallest part of the models torso or limbs are obscured - Cover for Infantry being expressly noted as being intentionally generous in the BRB.

Yes I did, i hate searching for things that are not quoting me at the start, and so I don't do it to others, sorry that you had to see three whole posts.

 

Then the doors closed block LOS

to be consistent, the doors either block LOS and provide cover OR they neither block LOS nor provide cover

Well don't, it's rude and spammy.

 

The doors exist as a battlefield feature. If even part of the target models torso or limbs are obscured, the model is in cover for the purposes of determining Cover Saves for units. The fact that the model can see over the top of the door in return is just one of the benefits of Infantry.

[Agrab]

they provide cover only through the inside, not when shooting around the hull itself

Firstly, did you really have to make three separate posts, all with a ream of quoted text, for three one line answers?

 

Secondly, yes they do count as cover for Infantry, because for Infantry cover is created if even the smallest part of the models torso or limbs are obscured - Cover for Infantry being expressly noted as being intentionally generous in the BRB.

Yes I did, i hate searching for things that are not quoting me at the start, and so I don't do it to others, sorry that you had to see three whole posts.

 

Then the doors closed block LOS

to be consistent, the doors either block LOS and provide cover OR they neither block LOS nor provide cover

Well don't, it's rude and spammy.

 

The doors exist as a battlefield feature. If even part of the target models torso or limbs are obscured, the model is in cover for the purposes of determining Cover Saves for units. The fact that the model can see over the top of the door in return is just one of the benefits of Infantry.

 

I strongly disagree, I think that it makes it easier to read and looks better. Furthermore, clearly addressing one person, not several at a time, is far more polite then just trying to talk to everybody at once.

 

So, are you of the position that closed doors do indded block LOS and don't allow you to shoot through the DP? If so, you are constant, though I disagree with your position. Otherwise, you seem to be playing both ways as you want to.

[Gentlemanloser]

The doors exist as a battlefield feature

 

So why can't you deploy form thier tips? And why can't enemies measure range of thier meltas to their tips? If they provide a physical presence on the battlefield, why can't they be shot at?

[stinkenheim]

Edit: as an addition to the whole DP doors count as thier hulls, if that's the case, then you can measure range to target the DP from the tip of the petals. Including Melta range. As such, denying your opponent this range by glueing them shut is also gaiming for an advantage.

 

please show me in the rules where it says you ignore decorative items for LOS.

it mentions things added to bases confer no cover save as you cannot carry cover around and that to draw LOS to someone you ignore that models weapons/banners.

no where that i can see does it state that banners and other such items are ignored completely when determining LOS different models.

 

The doors exist as a battlefield feature

So why can't you deploy form thier tips? And why can't enemies measure range of thier meltas to their tips? If they provide a physical presence on the battlefield, why can't they be shot at?

 

because range is drawn to the hull of the vehicle. the doors are not its hull and so are not counted for deployment/shooting at. they are there however and should offer a cover save if they interfere with LOS.

 

 

+EDIT+ sorry, my keyboard hates 'a' so it often misses it out. think theres a few bits of GS under some of the keys that stop them registering properly.

[Koremu]

The doors exist as a battlefield feature

 

So why can't you deploy form thier tips? And why can't enemies measure range of thier meltas to their tips? If they provide a physical presence on the battlefield, why can't they be shot at?

You can't deploy from their tips because the tip of the Pod isn't the access point. Same reason you can't deploy from or shoot at Land Raider or Rhino access ramps.

[Gentlemanloser]

You can't deploy from their tips because the tip of the Pod isn't the access point

 

Drop Pod is open topped. You can deploy from any part of the hull.

 

And for the record, even if it wasn't open topped, wouldn't the door form an obvious part of any access point?

 

the doors are not its hull and so are not counted for deployment/shooting at.

 

So if they're not part of the Hull, and they aren't decorative, what are they?

 

They aren't weapons.

 

no where that i can see does it state that banners and other such items are ignored completely when determining LOS different models.

 

And that's why I'd like to see someone model a marine army with 42" wide banners, attached to back packs and not bases, and set up in such a fashion you block LoS to your whole army with them. :tu:

[Prosedragon]

The rules for deploying from an open-topped vehicle state you deploy from any point on the vehicle, it doesn't mention the hull.

[stinkenheim]

th doors are just like dozer blades, part of the vehicle without being the hull or weapons. Dozer blades are not ignored fo LOS so why should the doors?

and if someone made an army like that, and all scenery pieces were large enough to prevent me from drawing LOS to the bodies of the marines then i wouldn't be able to shoot them while they were hidden in such a way. The rulebook doesn't prevent them from doing it, but most players are not complete eejits and apprecite being able to have more than one game in thei LGS before being asked to leave for bad sportsmanship.

the point is though, no where does it say decorative items are ignored apart from when determining if the model possesing them is visible, so if we are dealing with RW you cannot start to put such conditions in there.

Having a drop pods doors count as cover, or blocking LOS if they cannot open is not even in the same ball park as the 42" banner army.

 

+EDIT+ @ endragon, the open topped rules state that you don't have to deploy within 2" of the access ahtches as there aren't any instead you deploy 2" from the vehicle. P 56, Vehicles nd Measuring Distances states that measurements are done to the hull ignoring things like barrels guns etc. the open topped stuff just adds more to the basic rules, it doesnt overwrite them entirely :rolleyes:

[Koremu]

the doors are not its hull and so are not counted for deployment/shooting at.

 

So if they're not part of the Hull, and they aren't decorative, what are they?

 

They aren't weapons.

 

They're... ramps. Openable features of a vehicle. Just like Rhinos and Land Raiders. Can you deploy from any of them? No! Can you shoot at any of them? No! Do they exist for the purposes of TLOS? Yes!

[Gentlemanloser]

They're... ramps. Openable features of a vehicle. Just like Rhinos and Land Raiders. Can you deploy from any of them? No! Can you shoot at any of them? No! Do they exist for the purposes of TLOS? Yes!

 

You've never had anyone measure disembarkment from a lowered LR front ramp? Isn't it part of the access point?

 

th doors are just like dozer blades, part of the vehicle without being the hull or weapons. Dozer blades are not ignored fo LOS so why should the doors?

 

Dozer blades are a great example!

 

But, seeing as you can measure shooting and assault range to them, shouldn't they actually count as part of the hull?

 

Or are you unable to assault the front of a Vindi/LR with a Dozer balde as you can't get into base contact with the 'hull' becuase of one?

 

Having a drop pods doors count as cover, or blocking LOS if they cannot open is not even in the same ball park as the 42" banner army.

 

Exagerated on purpose. ;)

 

Just in case anyone mistakes me, it's not something I'd condone.

 

Going back to DP doors that are down. Why can't you measure shooting range to them, or disembark form tham. What makes an attached door not part of a DPs hull?

 

Edit: Another exageration.

 

If Dozerblades aren't Hull, and you therefore can't get into assault 'through' them, why not model one that curves round slightly to the sides. Or even stick a dozer blade on the rear as well. Or each side.

 

Seems quite, useful, to make a Tank of yours immune to CC. ;)

[stinkenheim]

the doors are the same as the ramps on a land raider or dozer blades, not a part of the hull.

 

p 56 BRB.

Vehicles and Measuring Distances.

 

'As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blaades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements).'

 

so you see, dozer baldes are ingored for determining if the vehicle is within assault range, or within range of a weapon.

so if the hull of the vindicator is 6.5"s from my marine, even if i can reach the dozer blade i cannot assault the vinidicator as the dozer blade is not part of the hull.

Likewise, if the Drop Pods hull is 8" away from a marine, even if the door is within charge range they cannot charge it as it is not part of the vehicles hull.

 

+EDIT+ you seem obsessed with taking things to the extreme, well fine. P 85 talks about assaults in ruins and mentions that if there is not enough room to fit all of your models in b2b or if the levels are unstable it is perfectly acceptale to place them on a different level and as close as possible to the enemy. then you simply declare which are in b2b contact and proceed as normal. Whilst i realise this is talking about terrain it seems a perfectly acceptable method for dealing with assaults on vehicles. So long as the hull is within 6" you can charge, simple moving the models as close s possible to the target and declaring whicha re in b2b contact, in this case those in b2b with the dozer blade.

[Gentlemanloser]

'As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blaades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements).'

 

Thanks for typing that up! :D

 

The main bone of contention remains though.

 

Are Doors/Ramps part of the Hull, or considered 'Decorative Elements' akin to Dozer Blades?

 

the doors are the same as the ramps on a land raider or dozer blades, not a part of the hull.

 

So where's the RAW for that?

 

So next;

 

it mentions things added to bases confer no cover save as you cannot carry cover around and that to draw LOS to someone you ignore that models weapons/banners.

 

First, we see by the Vehicles rules, not all vehicles have a base. And it's cover attached to a base you can't 'carry round'. That would imply either that most Tanks could easily carry aorund thier own cover, or that you ignore anything 'decorative'.

 

Next the end of it mentioned ignoring that units Banners when determining LOS.

 

*if* above, Doors/Ramps are in the same category as Dozer Blades (not Hull), then they're in the same category as Banners.

 

Which you ignore when determining LoS to that mini.

 

Which would imply you ignore any and all Doors/Ramps when drawing LoS to a Tank (as you would with it's guns, antenna, Banners and Dozer Blades.

 

So;

 

Either Doors/Ramps are part of the Hull.

 

Or

 

They are Decorative like Dozer Blades and you ignore them for LoS.

[stinkenheim]

show me the rules as written that they are hull?

 

you can't. the rulebook doesn't define every part of what is considered the hull of a vehicle, they do include some that are not. if you want to play that you drop pod has such a large hull and that your land raiders gain an additional 2" for disembarking then fine but dont expect to get many games.

maybe at some point in this discussion you could back up yur views... you know, just a thought there...

 

+EDIT+ the rules don't say that you ignore doors/ramps when determinign LOS to a vehicle, simply that you ignore them for determining range, don't get the two mixed up.

[Gentlemanloser]

My view?

 

I have. Numerous times.

 

The DP Doors are decorative, designed to be open from deployment, have absolutley no impact on the game at all.

[stinkenheim]

The following is quoted for irony... please excuse the sarcasm which i understand is hard to detect in writing

So where's the RAW for that?

 

I have seen the line about the doors blowing open, and i have seen (and indeed quoted) the sections with regards to ignoring decoation when determining if you can see a models body. I have also read and quoted the section about intervening models which makes no mention about ignoring decoration so could you please quote the section that forms the basis of your arguement, the one mentioning ignoring anything decorative for LOS purposes. Its just that that one seems to have passed me by.

[Gentlemanloser]

please show me in the rules where it says you ignore decorative items for LOS.

it mentions things added to bases confer no cover save as you cannot carry cover around and that to draw LOS to someone you ignore that models weapons/banners.

 

For vehicles, Dozer Baldes and Anetenna fall into the same non hull category as Weapons and Banners.#

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that DP Ramps fall into the same category.

 

Therefore you ignore them, like Banners (And Dozer Baldes) for LoS.

 

Or they form part of the hull, with all the problems that entails. (Which I personally don't share the view of)

[stinkenheim]

again, please can you quote where it says you ignore anything decorative for drawing LOS to something.

 

We are in agreement that banners and the like do not count as part of a models body, the rules show this.

We agree that Dozer Blades (for example) are not part of the hull, the rules show this

 

i just cannot see where it says to ignore for instance a dozer blade that is blocking LOS to a command squad (for example). Or where the rules say that the same command squads banner cannot obscure LOS to the dread behind them.

the rules mke no mention of ignoring things like that in those situations, they mention specific times when they are ignored but its not all the time. Unles you can show me otherwise there is little point in continuing this.

 

Just because something isn't a or b doesn't mean it has to be c.

 

for instance i have a pet, its not a cat or a fish but that doesnt mean its a dog. Just because the doors are not hull, or weapons does not mean they have to be completely discounted during the game. If the obscure LOS to a model then itwould gain a cover save. If they cannot be lowered for whatever reason then LOS cannot be drawn through them. Its simpe, and not ground breaking.

[Gentlemanloser]

In the same way as there isn't RAW for everything, there isn't exact RAW for this.

 

I'm of the mind that if you ignore something for LoS in one instance, you ignore it for all.

 

If you can't block LoS to the model itself becuase of it's Banner/Dozer/Weapon/Etc, then you can't use the same item to block LoS to anything else.

 

Perversely, if you asked me about Rhino/LR doors, I'd most likely say these were actually part of the Hull. And that the idea they were considered 'Hull' was stronger than that of them being 'Decorative'. :(

 

But there's no RAW about what to consider Doors. They're either Hull, or they're not.

 

And in the DP case, it just brings up far too many problems, RAW and Fluff, for them to be considered as part of that specific vehicles Hull. For me, the answer is to clase them i this case, as purely decorative, that have no impact on gameplay at all.

 

But, my real issue here is that it's either one or the other. They're either fully Hull, or fully Decorative. And you can't cherry pick how to consider them, just to suit your wants. :P

[Grey Mage]

But, my real issue here is that it's either one or the other. They're either fully Hull, or fully Decorative. And you can't cherry pick how to consider them, just to suit your wants. :huh:

Except thats not true at all- a Deathrolla is not part of the hull of an ork battlewagon, but it most certainly isnt ignored for TLOS purposes either.

[Valerian]

please show me in the rules where it says you ignore decorative items for LOS.

it mentions things added to bases confer no cover save as you cannot carry cover around and that to draw LOS to someone you ignore that models weapons/banners.

 

For vehicles, Dozer Baldes and Anetenna fall into the same non hull category as Weapons and Banners.#

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that DP Ramps fall into the same category.

 

Okay, I'll buy that: Drop Pod ramps are treated pretty much the same as weapons, dozer blades, antennae, and banners on vehicles. This means that they are not part of the hull, do not affect deployment ranges, and you do not measure to/from them for shooting purposes. I think we agree completely on this aspect.

 

Therefore you ignore them, like Banners (And Dozer Baldes) for LoS.

 

Here is where we have a problem; you don't ignore any of those non-hull items (weapons, antannae, dozer blades, and drop pod ramps), when it comes to True Line of Sight. For TLOS, everything counts. If it is in the way, it is in the way. If you put your ramps down, then by TLoS, you get an 8 or 9 inch diameter of 4+ Cover Save granting terrain for any Infantry on the far side. If I leave mine up, then I get a 4 inch or so diameter piece of TLoS Blocking terrain.

 

Your problem, Gentlemanloser, is that you are trying to establish a linkage that if a part of a vehicle isn't considered the hull (also known commonly as a chassis), then it must be ignored for LOS purposes; this however is not anywhere in the rules. There is no such guidance to ignore non-hull vehicle parts when determining LOS. There is only guidance to ignore those parts when measuring ranges, such as for disembarkation and receiving incoming shooting attacks.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

then it must be ignored for LOS purposes; this however is not anywhere in the rules.

 

If all you can see of a model is it's Weapon, Banner or other decorative parts, you can't shoot it. You cannot draw LoS to any of these things (including Def Rollers, unless they are consider part of the Hull).

 

In all intents and purposes, you ignore all these items when checking for LoS.

 

But I'm done here. ;) I'm off to the Download Festival!

[stinkenheim]

you seem to be confusing ignoring them when determining if you can see a models body, and ignoring them when shooting at something else.

the rules only cover the first part, they make no mention of the second anywhere, beit under LOS or under 'intervening models'. it is better therefore to asume that they are not simply ignored, but rather do have an impact during the game as opposed to ruling the other way.

 

again, the rules don't say you ignore dozer blades etc for LOS. They say you igore them when checking range to the hull. Its two completely seperate aspects of the game and you are confusing one with the other.

[Agrab]

so, again, can I just build a giant banner that protects the rest of my army, or put huge dozers on all sides of my tank to avoid LOS to it?