Drop Pod Ramps?

[stinkenheim]

read my posts. the banners could do that, although good luck finding yourself an opponen after that.

dozer blades on the other handle DO NOT effect LOS to the tank, merely the range measurements. The are ignored for checkin range to the hull NOT for LOS. If you can see the dozer blade and any part of the hull you can shoot the vehicle you simply measure to the hull. Even if its further than the dozer blade.

 

For someone who insists on RAW you seem to be overlooking the difference between 'Dozer Blades are not part of the hull- you emasure all ranges to the hull' and 'Dozer Blades are ignored entirely for LOS'. One is in the rule book the other isn't.

[Grey Mage]

so, again, can I just build a giant banner that protects the rest of my army, or put huge dozers on all sides of my tank to avoid LOS to it?

You couldnt avoid LOS to your vehicle like that- those dozer blades arent a scenic part of your base, so we wouldnt ignore them.

 

And you could do a banner... youd never get a game again, and hed probly die nice and quick, but have fun with that.

[Agrab]

read my posts. the banners could do that, although good luck finding yourself an opponen after that.

dozer blades on the other handle DO NOT effect LOS to the tank, merely the range measurements. The are ignored for checkin range to the hull NOT for LOS. If you can see the dozer blade and any part of the hull you can shoot the vehicle you simply measure to the hull. Even if its further than the dozer blade.

 

For someone who insists on RAW you seem to be overlooking the difference between 'Dozer Blades are not part of the hull- you emasure all ranges to the hull' and 'Dozer Blades are ignored entirely for LOS'. One is in the rule book the other isn't.

 

Dozer blades are not part of the hull, and you can not shoot them as such. You must be able to see the hull, so you are arguing that i could build up protective barriers

I see no difference between this and keeping the DP doors open

[Valerian]

then it must be ignored for LOS purposes; this however is not anywhere in the rules.

 

If all you can see of a model is it's Weapon, Banner or other decorative parts, you can't shoot it. You cannot draw LoS to any of these things (including Def Rollers, unless they are consider part of the Hull).

 

In all intents and purposes, you ignore all these items when checking for LoS.

 

All of these items still count when it comes to checking LOS. If they block or obscure your True LOS to something behind them, then that hidden model either gets a Cover Save, or might not be able to be shot at all.

 

You have to put the rule for no shooting at weapons, banners, and "decorative items" in to context. The whole purpose of that is to not penalize you for realistic models, or to allow a model to be targetted when a Space Marine is standing behind a building and all that can be seen is his Boltgun sticking out from behind the wall. Likewise, you cannot target my Rhino that is on the far side of a hill, just because you can see some of it's antannae sticking up above the horizon. The book doesn't say it in this way, but it is clear from what they do say, that they want you to be able to see a significant part of a model in order to actually target it. There is no mention of the hull of a vehicle anywhere in this, other than to say that you measure shooting attacks to the hull.

 

To answer Agrab's question about Dozer Blades, it goes like this: if I was looking Toward a Vindicator, which was hiding behind a building and all that I could see was the Dozer Blade sticking out a little to the left of the building, then I would have to say I couldn't target the vehicle, as there just isn't enough of it exposed to get a shot at it. If there are some infantry further along down the game board and that dozer blade obscures my LOS to more than half of them, they get a cover save (the blade is still in the way, and still counts for TLoS). If, however the Vindicator is right in front of me, and pointed at me, I'm still looking primarily at the dozer blade, since it covers almost the entire front of the tank, however, I now get to shoot at the vehicle, as it is certainly no longer the case of a mostly hidden model with some insignificant portion in view.

[Arnil]

Okay. I have read all 7 pages. (I have no life...NAH warhammer IS my life!) Seriously it took me three days with m busy schedual and general spascisity...but there comes a time after page 3 that your commited for the duration. OKAY!!! Down to business!

 

The doors up provide complete cover for TLOS.

 

Anything shooting out of the pod cannot shoot.

 

The doors down provide +4 cover save.

 

You can't target the doors down for range or LOS cause that makes NO sense at all. "Oh no! You shot my drop pod's door we just exploded into the ground!! NOOO!!!!"

 

And yes banners and other decorative items are ignored for LOS on a model. And vehicles. I'd also say dozer blades stop assaults, this makes them alot more viable IMO(but this isn't the topic of this discussion haha). But they don't provide cover for that model. If you have a banner in front of a guy and i shoot at the banner you get a armor save for that not a cover save also the extra saveing power does not matter for much as your save doesn't change. Its all part of the model just i can't shoot the banner if all i see is the banner and i say i hit you.(again off topic)

 

I'd like to point out that in most cases the cover save on a marine will not be taken haha +3 armor FTW! (This whole debate it off topic atm so i figured why not)

 

These thing are definent to me.

 

 

The thing i am wondering is if the doors are up how do the models get out? They can by the RAW get out from anywhere on the hull yes but i feel this breaks the feel of a Drop Pod to have them get out of a closed pod...im not saying i won't let you do that im just saying count it as being open. The pod comes down and EXTREAMLY shielded and armored doors have to be exploded open due to their weight. The marines are not going to sit there and close the doors. Sure the "The door is a jar" will get annoying and the marines will likely shoot the thing later but they are makeing a SPACE DROPPED ASSAULT! Not a SPACE DROPPED SIT BEHIND THE POD AND HIDE FROM FIRE CAUSE WE ARE IMPERIAL GUARD!!

 

We are space marines! And we shall know no fear!

[Zynk Kaladin]

The thing i am wondering is if the doors are up how do the models get out? They can by the RAW get out from anywhere on the hull yes but i feel this breaks the feel of a Drop Pod to have them get out of a closed pod...im not saying i won't let you do that im just saying count it as being open. The pod comes down and EXTREAMLY shielded and armored doors have to be exploded open due to their weight. The marines are not going to sit there and close the doors. Sure the "The door is a jar" will get annoying and the marines will likely shoot the thing later but they are makeing a SPACE DROPPED ASSAULT! Not a SPACE DROPPED SIT BEHIND THE POD AND HIDE FROM FIRE CAUSE WE ARE IMPERIAL GUARD!!

 

We are space marines! And we shall know no fear!

 

I tried to argue this, but apparently it doesn't fly with what the rules say :P

[Agrab]

Okay. I have read all 7 pages. (I have no life...NAH warhammer IS my life!) Seriously it took me three days with m busy schedual and general spascisity...but there comes a time after page 3 that your commited for the duration. OKAY!!! Down to business!

 

The doors up provide complete cover for TLOS.

 

Anything shooting out of the pod cannot shoot.

 

The doors down provide +4 cover save.

 

You can't target the doors down for range or LOS cause that makes NO sense at all. "Oh no! You shot my drop pod's door we just exploded into the ground!! NOOO!!!!"

 

And yes banners and other decorative items are ignored for LOS on a model. And vehicles. I'd also say dozer blades stop assaults, this makes them alot more viable IMO(but this isn't the topic of this discussion haha). But they don't provide cover for that model. If you have a banner in front of a guy and i shoot at the banner you get a armor save for that not a cover save also the extra saveing power does not matter for much as your save doesn't change. Its all part of the model just i can't shoot the banner if all i see is the banner and i say i hit you.(again off topic)

 

I'd like to point out that in most cases the cover save on a marine will not be taken haha +3 armor FTW! (This whole debate it off topic atm so i figured why not)

 

These thing are definent to me.

 

 

The thing i am wondering is if the doors are up how do the models get out? They can by the RAW get out from anywhere on the hull yes but i feel this breaks the feel of a Drop Pod to have them get out of a closed pod...im not saying i won't let you do that im just saying count it as being open. The pod comes down and EXTREAMLY shielded and armored doors have to be exploded open due to their weight. The marines are not going to sit there and close the doors. Sure the "The door is a jar" will get annoying and the marines will likely shoot the thing later but they are makeing a SPACE DROPPED ASSAULT! Not a SPACE DROPPED SIT BEHIND THE POD AND HIDE FROM FIRE CAUSE WE ARE IMPERIAL GUARD!!

 

We are space marines! And we shall know no fear!

 

if we assume that your interpretation is correct (which I don't), how are you allowed to keep the doors closed then

[Arnil]

Well by my interpretation you cant but if it is glued that way i won't be a jerk and say you cant play it. Id just say it counts as being open

[Agrab]

Well by my interpretation you cant but if it is glued that way i won't be a jerk and say you cant play it. Id just say it counts as being open

 

that has been my argument from the start. I am fine with using a tin can to model it (i made one of mine), but not cool with the idea of saying it blocks because you chose to model it that way. Just count it as open

[Arnil]

In my opinion it is just chessey to play it but the doors closed=blocked TLOS is accurate by the RAW.

 

I however do not think that matches the feel, purpose, and usage of a drop pod. It makes it a different vehicle...i would not play with someone who did that. I would let them measure their weapon from the hull if they modeled it closed and let me shoot through it though. That just seems fair to me. Of course one could just say, "From the hull -1 inch is the distance." Its not like the weapon is far from the hull afterall.

 

So you CAN use it and block LOS but i won't play with you. Sorry, it just isnt a drop pod to me if you do that is all...

[Paladus]

In the Space Wolf DP entry it says:

 

Transport

The drop pod has a transport capacity of ten models. It can transport up to ten infantry or a single dreadnought. Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolves may not use drop pods. Once the drop pod has landed, all passengers must immediately disembark.

 

From this I would say that it means a DP doors open immediately it hits the ground and seeing as the technology is uniform that would mean normal Space Marine DP do as well. Either that or it's simply Space Wolves wanting to rush into battle.

[Grey Mage]

Open topped=you can walk through walls.

[guinness drinking dwarf]

Sorry to drag this up again but in the last game with my wolves the whole drop pod door petal thing stalled the game for far to long.

As I see it, granted from a logical point of view, (I know 40k rule don't work that way) once the pod is deployed doors open, cargo gets out and deploys 2" from the pods hull not the petals. This allows TLS to be used, enter your 4+ cover.

 

"Open topped=you can walk through walls." GM

 

This is fine for the examples used (ork truck etc as they start the game open topped) but the pod only becomes open topped once its deploys. (Pg 47 SWC) meaning that somthing has changed to the pods configuaration on landing. "I'd like to thank you from traveling with us the doors are now open, please exit through your nearest one"

Feel free to glue your doors up but bear in mind there suspose to open and before any one says "show me in the rule where it says this", please show me where it states that SM have fingers to fire there weapons, they just do. Sorry if this comes across funny, no intention.

 

With regars to be doors I deploy 2" from the hull as that is where my wolves are strapped in. Moreover if a door is unable open once the pod has landed due to a building, models etc then I deploy around the other side so long as long as I can Keep coherency and fit them all in. If I can't fit all the modles around the pod due to enemies or IPT they I would have to preform an 'emergency disembarkation' pg 67 RB.

 

Another problem about the doors is that once deployed do they themselves provide cover. If you refer to pg21 RB then yes as long as they obscure the targets legs, but the level of save would need to be agreed on I think. With this cover in mind making the doors an in game feature would models moving over the doors, to say, assault your blokes need to roll for difficult terrain? I don't think so but I don't know?? Seems odd.

 

Reading all 7 pages has been intersting but all in all there does'nt seem to be a set ruleing on DPs. As said previous it would be worth addressing the DP issue pre-game. I just hope GW decide to look into this more and make a set rule for pods covering our issues.

 

Thanks

Gdd

[greatcrusade08]

as a vehicle only occupies the area taken up by its hull, sponsons and petal on Drop pods have no effect on terms of offering a cover save.. also not a model cannot bring cover with it.

 

It is only the hull of a vehicle that can offer a cover save..

[Phosis]

Open topped=you can walk through walls.

 

 

This.

[Grey Mage]

as a vehicle only occupies the area taken up by its hull, sponsons and petal on Drop pods have no effect on terms of offering a cover save.. also not a model cannot bring cover with it.

 

It is only the hull of a vehicle that can offer a cover save..

Wich, as we all should know, isnt true. This statement is wrong on all threee counts, being only correct in that a model cannot bring Its Own cover with it.

 

All measurements are taken to and from the hull- but sponsons still block LOS, you still cant co-exist with a model, etc. Just like if a unit of tactical marines is in front of a unit of scouts, they provide cover- theyre not bringing cover with them, they are the cover.

 

This is yet another reason I leave my DPs up- because RAW you can deploy 2" from the petals, you can block huge areas of the field with them, and people do nothing but complain because of that. All of that usually goes away when the doors are up.

 

But sure, if you really want my 7 DPs can blanket a deployment zone on a 6x4 and keep you from using most reserves. My Grey Hunters can gauarantee themselves to be within melta range of their target when they drop. People really want to complain they can be given something to complain about.

 

Or you can deal with the RAW that I dont have to drop my pod doors and that my marines can walk out of the pod anyways, wich will it be?

This is fine for the examples used (ork truck etc as they start the game open topped) but the pod only becomes open topped once its deploys. (Pg 47 SWC) meaning that somthing has changed to the pods configuaration on landing. "I'd like to thank you from traveling with us the doors are now open, please exit through your nearest one"

Feel free to glue your doors up but bear in mind there suspose to open and before any one says "show me in the rule where it says this", please show me where it states that SM have fingers to fire there weapons, they just do. Sorry if this comes across funny, no intention.

 

No, the rules for a DP state its open topped. They dont state anything changes- you know why? Because its unit type is "Vehicle (open-topped)" check your codex. Nothing actually changes when it lands, illustrative flavor text or not.

 

And how is it fine for orks to walk through an engine block to assault me but not for a pack to walk through a drop pods ramp to shoot someones tank? Im sorry, but I cannot stand for something that smacks of favoritism like that- these rules apply to all open-topped vehicles, not just the ones people are comfortable with.

[Gentlemanloser]

This is yet another reason I leave my DPs up- because RAW you can deploy 2" from the petals, you can block huge areas of the field with them

 

I'd be 100% happy with that ruling, if you DSed the pods with the petals down, and the petals also accounted for Perils.

 

Not so easy to deploy a DP that way.

[Grey Mage]

Thats true, they take up alot of space.... but I wouldnt have issue with deploying them out in that situation.

 

Of course, then we get into C:SM players saying 'well, it says to drop the hatches afterwords'.... *sighs*.

[BearersOfSalvation]

I'd be 100% happy with that ruling, if you DSed the pods with the petals down, and the petals also accounted for Perils.

 

Not so easy to deploy a DP that way.

 

I'm sure that's the way he'd do it, and it actually makes it way easier to get the pods where you want them. You seem to be forgetting that drop pods don't have to worry about deep strike mishaps from scattering, if they scatter onto an object they can reduce the scatter distance until they don't overlap an object.

[dswanick]

Question : On what RAW basis is the conclusion "door ramps" = "hull" and not "door ramps" = "decorative element" reached?

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm sure that's the way he'd do it, and it actually makes it way easier to get the pods where you want them. You seem to be forgetting that drop pods don't have to worry about deep strike mishaps from scattering, if they scatter onto an object they can reduce the scatter distance until they don't overlap an object.

 

Only for Impassable Terrain / Units. It would make it much harder to find a suitable space to DS in the first place, and make it much more likely to land some part in Difficult Terrain, and then take a Dangerous Terain test on landing.

 

Of course, the real danger becomes DSing anywhere near a board edge. As any part of the Petal touching an edge would count the whole thing off board, and you don't reduce the scatter for the board edge...

[Grey Mage]

Question : On what RAW basis is the conclusion "door ramps" = "hull" and not "door ramps" = "decorative element" reached?

Because ramps arent on the list of decorative elements. Its not a gunbarrel, antenna, dozerblade, banner etc. Nor is it an optional add on to the model. So I suppose the real question is- what reason do we have to think that they are decorative?

[dswanick]

Question : On what RAW basis is the conclusion "door ramps" = "hull" and not "door ramps" = "decorative element" reached?

Because ramps arent on the list of decorative elements. Its not a gunbarrel, antenna, dozerblade, banner etc. Nor is it an optional add on to the model. So I suppose the real question is- what reason do we have to think that they are decorative?

As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements).

Gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, and banners are specific examples, while 'other decorative elements' is the catch-all because the list is not exhaustive.

hull - noun

Definition of HULL

1a : the outer covering of a fruit or seed

b : the persistent calyx or involucre that subtends some fruits (as a strawberry)

2a : the frame or body of a ship or boat exclusive of masts, yards, sails, and rigging b : the main body of a usually large or heavy craft or vehicle (as an airship or tank)

Since we're not talking about fruits and seeds here - the hull is the frame or body of the vehicle. The doors don't support anything except themselves. Just as the wings of a winged model are attached at just one junction and then extend free-form away from the body (even though the wings aren't usually modeled to flap as the ramps are able to pivot). So the ramps are not part of the frame.

The drop pod model could easily be built without even attaching the doors so they clearly serve no functional purpose other than visual (ie. decorative element). So, yes, they are optional.

So we are left with the transported models must deploy within 2" of the hull. Not within 2" of the ramps. Of course, we are also left with the rule stating that models can not occupy the same space, or be "stacked". Which renders the droppod model useless, unless you ignore the ramps as decorative and "non-existent". I don't much like it, but there it is.

One quick question. If you insist on playing that the ramps are "hull" and not "decorative", then you also us the ramps to position your droppod away from terrain, correct? Not allowing the ramps to enter impassible terrain and or within 1" of enemy models per the Inertial Guidance rule? So, if you do this then you are also consistant in that you never try to deploy a droppod anywhere where there is insufficient room for a droppod with deployed doors? Because if you do all these things then you are "modeling for effect".

[greatcrusade08]

ramps/petals are either hull or they arent.. if you want them to be part of the hull then passengers can disembark within 2" of them, no-one can move within an inch of them and it would hamper your initial movement..

you couldnt then move a model ontop of them nor could you charge across them (youd have to go around)...

 

it just seems to be game breaking to insist they are part of the hull..

[Grey Mage]

Interesting things.

Doors are not decorative- they keep people from falling out as you drop from orbit. Theyre not added detail on the model... they dont exist to make it look pretty, or appealing.

 

If they were decorative, and we ignored them for everything, you could shoot through the hatches on a rhino or landraider....

 

As for wether or not I make sure theyre deployed in the proper fashion.... I would if I used them that way. As Ive stated I circumvent all these arguments about the petals by having all mine up.

 

What Im tired of is people trying to tell me they have to be down, or that they can magically shoot through my drop pod even though the doors are up.