Drop Pod Ramps?

[shatter]

Can I lower the doors on my LR and increase my move, disembark and tankshock ranges?

 

I don't think so. While an integral part of the hull, they're only so when closed and DPs open on landing.

 

In game terms, doors, open or shut are, in effect, decorative.

 

Right or wrong, up or down. I and the people I know play DP doors as non-existent.

[Grey Mage]

Ive played in areas where the front ramp of a landraider was lowered to increase deployment areas.

 

All that proves is there are different interpretations on this issue.

[dswanick]

Interesting things.

Doors are not decorative- they keep people from falling out as you drop from orbit. Theyre not added detail on the model... they dont exist to make it look pretty, or appealing.

 

If they were decorative, and we ignored them for everything, you could shoot through the hatches on a rhino or landraider....

Here's the part where I point out that this is a game with toys. :( Your DP is never going to find itself in space (unless you're an astronaut and get so annoyed you chuck them out the hatch). There are no people, or even models inside your DP, Rhino, of Land Raider model. We just count them as being in there for game purposes, so there is no line of sight to the minis over in your case even when you imagine that the Rhino/LR hatches are "invisible". We imagine that the Drop Pod is falling to a battle field from space with 10 space marines inside, but it is just a hunk of plastic we put on the table to represent a game effect. As such, they are decorative because the model could be assembled perfectly well without the ramp pieces ever being snipped from the sprue. This would make things much cleaner from a rules stand point as then no one would have to argue whether the ramps are hull or decorative. It really doen't matter too much as whether you play them hull or decorative comes with a penalty either way - so long as you are consistant.

As for wether or not I make sure theyre deployed in the proper fashion.... I would if I used them that way. As Ive stated I circumvent all these arguments about the petals by having all mine up.

 

What Im tired of is people trying to tell me they have to be down, or that they can magically shoot through my drop pod even though the doors are up.

I appologize, I wasn't directing this specifically at you - I was meaning the indefinite "you", a person reading what I wrote, ie:everyone. If you, specifically, play it that way then that's a perfectly valid method of ensuring no problems arise other than the LoS issue. It's really no different than someone modeling the ramps so they pivot and then "imagining" that they don't exist for game purposes. Yours will never come away from the hull, so there is no modeling advantage for deployment. I believe this argument only arises when someone wants to deploy his DP in a tight space counting the doors as up for purposes of placement and Inertial Guidance and then wants to change the footprint of the model by dropping the doors and deploying 2" from the ramps - thus modeling for advantage. As for the shooting/line of sight issue : there is no simple answer for that. If the doors are modeled up, as you do, and therefore block line of sight that would otherwise exist if the doors were pivoted down then someone could validly model a mini with a 4' square "cloak" and claim a cover save/LoS block to all models deployed behind him as claoks are not specifically listed. My example is an extreme example of course, but the principle is similar. I, personally, wouldn't stress DPs as LoS blockers because a Chaos Dreadclaw is a similarly sized model which performs the same function, has the same open-topped type deployment rule and doesn't have the ramps. An ork truck is "open-topped" but we don't imagine the bed or engine of the truck model as not existing for LoS purposes. For this - a little pregame discussion goes a long way, me thinks.

[nurglez]

I followed this topic on and off, for while I was interested, I played chaos and didn't play against any space marine armies in my group.

 

Now I have bought 2 to use with my logan wing, and I'm not sure how to play them, I will probably follow grey mage (he's like almost always right anyways :() and just play my drop pod doors up, if people want to shoot through it, fair enough but it will provide a cover save.

[greatcrusade08]

forget all the little arguments.. its either part of the hull or it isnt, it isnt a magical inbetween..

 

as i said if its the hull you can deploy within 2" of the fins....

 

its your choice.. yes or no

[nurglez]

its your choice yes, but it is something that has a big impact depending on if you think its one way or another, hence the rather long thread.

While I would assume the doors/ramps are just there for the look, my opponent might play it the other way round, and this causes issues...

[greatcrusade08]

my point is that you cant have your cake and eat it too.. those who think the fins/ramps are part of the hull would then have to play them differently.

i.e youd have to consider them when landing the pod, as the hull cannot be in difficult terrain.. any disembarking could do so within 2" of the fins, you couldnt move across the fins and the enemy couldnt come within an inch of them.

 

how much of that sounds right to you?

 

the only other option is that you play them as if they arent part of the hull, in which case they dont offer cover saves and whatnot,.

 

there is no inbetween.. and only one logical way to run them

[Gentlemanloser]

That about sums it up.

 

And is what I've been trying to say for the majoirty of the thread. :huh:

 

Much more eloquently and condensed though!

[stinkenheim]

Except no where in the rules does it say 'decorative' elements are ignored for tlos to other models.

The only thing that is mentioned is that a model cannot bring it's own cover with it, so if a banner or dozer blade is blocking Los to the model carrying it then that model wont get a cover save, a different model stood behind the banner would though.

No where does it say to completely ignore banners etc for Los, and with vehicles you likewise are not told to ignore dozer blades etc. Vehicle-wise the only mention of decorative elements is that they are ignored for measuring range to the hull. For example a model shooting a vindicator needs to measure range to the hull, not to the dozer blade.

 

I would appreciate any rules quotes stating otherwise, but as no one has provided them after 8 pages it us unlikely that someone will now.

[greatcrusade08]

you do seem to be right although the drop pods ramps have to obscure a 'body part' for them to give a cover save.. lets assume we are talking about legs.. do they obscure legs?

 

No you can clearly see most of a models legs standing behind the fins.. therefore no cover save.

 

infact the whole flags and wings and whatnot offering cover saves to models behind is silly and open to abuse IMO.. since you need to see a models head, body or arms/legs to see that model then by logic the wings and other appendages dont count for TLOS.

theres no rule to back this up, but the original point stands, the drop pods fins dont block enough of the models legs by TLOS to grant a save.. nor do they grant an area terrain save since a model cant bring cover with it

 

edit: found rule

 

page 21: intervening models:

scenic rocks and other decorative elemnts that players might have placed on the base of thier models are always ignored from the point of view of detemining cover

it makes no mention of which unti gets the cover, simply that no cover is given full stop.

 

if the fins arent part of the hull they come under the heading decorative elements and therefore offer no cover

[dswanick]

you do seem to be right although the drop pods ramps have to obscure a 'body part' for them to give a cover save.. lets assume we are talking about legs.. do they obscure legs?

 

No you can clearly see most of a models legs standing behind the fins.. therefore no cover save.

 

infact the whole flags and wings and whatnot offering cover saves to models behind is silly and open to abuse IMO.. since you need to see a models head, body or arms/legs to see that model then by logic the wings and other appendages dont count for TLOS.

theres no rule to back this up, but the original point stands, the drop pods fins dont block enough of the models legs by TLOS to grant a save.. nor do they grant an area terrain save since a model cant bring cover with it

 

edit: found rule

 

page 21: intervening models:

scenic rocks and other decorative elemnts that players might have placed on the base of thier models are always ignored from the point of view of detemining cover

it makes no mention of which unti gets the cover, simply that no cover is given full stop.

 

if the fins arent part of the hull they come under the heading decorative elements and therefore offer no cover

So, then, by this logic the wings of a Bloodthirster must also be ignored for TLoS purposes. Unless you place significance on the part that says "decorative elements that players might have placed on the base of thier models". Neither wings nor dozer blades and ramps are placed on the base, nor even by the player as they are part of the kit produced by GW. This whole debate makes my head hurt.

P.S. : If any part of a models body is obscured, the model gets a cover save - infantry models don't have the 50% rule ("No you can clearly see most of a models legs standing behind the fins.. therefore no cover save.") Legs are part of the body and if any part of the leg is obscured the model as a whole gets the save.

[greatcrusade08]

So, then, by this logic the wings of a Bloodthirster must also be ignored for TLoS purposes. Unless you place significance on the part that says "decorative elements that players might have placed on the base of thier models". Neither wings nor dozer blades and ramps are placed on the base, nor even by the player as they are part of the kit produced by GW. This whole debate makes my head hurt.

lets ignore wings forn the tme being, but fins are part of the 'base' in that they are on the ground and are beng claimed for cover saves..

decorative elements dont give a cover save

again if not being on the base is a defining point for what offers a save then things like overhanging flags and anyhting original people can make hang off tanks will offer cover saves.. im not buying that.. sorry mate its cheese beyond stilton.. a model cannot bring cover with it and decorative elements are considered for cover.

TLOs only affects whether or not you can shoot, cover saves are a seperate issue

 

P.S. : If any part of a models body is obscured, the model gets a cover save - infantry models don't have the 50% rule ("No you can clearly see most of a models legs standing behind the fins.. therefore no cover save.") Legs are part of the body and if any part of the leg is obscured the model as a whole gets the save.

ok lets start splitting hairs.. the rule doesnt say if a body part is partially obscured, it says a body part IS obscured.. the legs are the body part in qestion (see pg 16) they are not obscured therefore no cover save

[dswanick]

k lets start splitting hairs.. the rule doesnt say if a body part is partially obscured, it says a body part IS obscured.. the legs are the body part in qestion (see pg 16) they are nopt obscured therefore no coevr save

I think this is why this whole issue becomes such a furball. If people can't even agree on if a cover save is granted to a model based on how much of the models leg is obscured then how does the debate move on to the bigger issue of if one model obscuring another is valid? I would be interested to know how many players would argue that a model obscured only from the knees down doesn't get a save vs how many do.

 

The issue with Drop Pods is, in my opinion, that by calling ramps hull you open up the possibility of abuse when players deploy the pod closed (and smaller for Inertial Guidance purposes) and then expand their hull (by dropping the ramps) to gain the advantage of a larger foot print with which to place the transported models. By calling the ramps decorative you avoid those issues, but open up the abuse that players now declare the Drop Pod unusable as there is no way to place 10 models within 2" of the smaller footprint without placing some on the "decorative" ramps which is not allowed by the rules. By saying "ignore" the ramps completly you can ignore them for Inertial Guidance purposes, and for placing the transported models but in the case of Greymage's glued closed pods you are now asking them to not count for TLoS purposes.

[greatcrusade08]

k lets start splitting hairs.. the rule doesnt say if a body part is partially obscured, it says a body part IS obscured.. the legs are the body part in qestion (see pg 16) they are nopt obscured therefore no coevr save

I think this is why this whole issue becomes such a furball. If people can't even agree on if a cover save is granted to a model based on how much of the models leg is obscured then how does the debate move on to the bigger issue of if one model obscuring another is valid? I would be interested to know how many players would argue that a model obscured only from the knees down doesn't get a save vs how many do.

Its a RAW question, unless the body part in question is obscured (means hidden from view) then no cover save is given, partially obscured doesnt cut it im afraid

 

The issue with Drop Pods is, in my opinion, that by calling ramps hull you open up the possibility of abuse when players deploy the pod closed (and smaller for Inertial Guidance purposes) and then expand their hull (by dropping the ramps) to gain the advantage of a larger foot print with which to place the transported models. By calling the ramps decorative you avoid those issues, but open up the abuse that players now declare the Drop Pod unusable as there is no way to place 10 models within 2" of the smaller footprint without placing some on the "decorative" ramps which is not allowed by the rules. By saying "ignore" the ramps completly you can ignore them for Inertial Guidance purposes, and for placing the transported models but in the case of Greymage's glued closed pods you are now asking them to not count for TLoS purposes.

Where does it say you cant place models on the ramps? you couldnt if it were considered the hull, but if its not the hull then its fine

[greatcrusade08]

just to clarify:

page 11 movement

 

a model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is reprisented by its base or hull)

 

If its not the hull then you can move through it or onto it

[dswanick]

just to clarify:

page 11 movement

 

a model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is reprisented by its base or hull)

 

If its not the hull then you can move through it or onto it

Again, I would be interested to know if anyone actually plays (or GW intended) that a low wall that only comes up to a models knees wouldn't provide a cover save to the model - when GW wrote:

When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover. This is intentioinally generous, and it represents the fact that the warrior, unlike the model, will be actively trying to take cover (as well as the smoke, explosions and flying debris that are mercifully absent from the tabletop battlefield).

But the space occupied = base/hull is interesting as it seems to have completely gotten lost in this debate.

[greatcrusade08]

actual cover (and what value it gives) is usally agreed upon before the game begins..

what we are discussing here is intervening models (the drop pod).. going back to your quote it says when any part of the target models body is obscured.. it also says that the definition for this is on page 16.. where it shows that body parts are defined as a head, a body, arms or legs.

 

so in this case the legs would have to be obscured (by RAw) to get a cover save.. if they arent obscured they dont get it

 

edit: i agree this topic can easily get lost.. it basically comes down to the following:

as mentioned before if you consider the fins/ramps to be part of the hull the you have to play the game differently, if you consider them decorative then they offer nothing..

 

TLOS is used to determine if you can see the model to shoot at it, determining cover saves is a different prospect.. the drop pods fins are decorative hencde cannot offer cover (a model cannot bring cover with it either). also the ramps are not tall enough to obscure the legs of a space marine.

 

there is nothing to sugest ramps give cover saves what so ever

[Frosty the Pyro]

Except no where in the rules does it say 'decorative' elements are ignored for tlos to other models.

The only thing that is mentioned is that a model cannot bring it's own cover with it, so if a banner or dozer blade is blocking Los to the model carrying it then that model wont get a cover save, a different model stood behind the banner would though.

No where does it say to completely ignore banners etc for Los, and with vehicles you likewise are not told to ignore dozer blades etc. Vehicle-wise the only mention of decorative elements is that they are ignored for measuring range to the hull. For example a model shooting a vindicator needs to measure range to the hull, not to the dozer blade.

 

I would appreciate any rules quotes stating otherwise, but as no one has provided them after 8 pages it us unlikely that someone will now.

woo time to make giant LOS blocking banners on all my assult terminators for an interlocking wall. I will move them first n the movement phase, turning them sideways so my guys can see between them, then use their run move in the shooting phase after everyone has shot to realighn them so no one can shoot at my squishiers units behind the termies. Add Shrike for fleet so they can still assault when the time comes.

[Mithril hound]

The drop pods 'ramps' are not on the base of my grey hunter squad. They are not modeled onto the base of my grey hunter squad. This is just the same as my vindicators dozer blade is also not modeled onto my grey hunter squads bases. So, greatcrusade08 your claim "fins are part of the 'base' in that they are on the ground and are beng claimed for cover saves.. decorative elements dont give a cover save" is wrong. And your logic means that terrain, and anything else should not give cover. I think your wrong.

[Grey Mage]

Except no where in the rules does it say 'decorative' elements are ignored for tlos to other models.

The only thing that is mentioned is that a model cannot bring it's own cover with it, so if a banner or dozer blade is blocking Los to the model carrying it then that model wont get a cover save, a different model stood behind the banner would though.

No where does it say to completely ignore banners etc for Los, and with vehicles you likewise are not told to ignore dozer blades etc. Vehicle-wise the only mention of decorative elements is that they are ignored for measuring range to the hull. For example a model shooting a vindicator needs to measure range to the hull, not to the dozer blade.

 

I would appreciate any rules quotes stating otherwise, but as no one has provided them after 8 pages it us unlikely that someone will now.

woo time to make giant LOS blocking banners on all my assult terminators for an interlocking wall. I will move them first n the movement phase, turning them sideways so my guys can see between them, then use their run move in the shooting phase after everyone has shot to realighn them so no one can shoot at my squishiers units behind the termies. Add Shrike for fleet so they can still assault when the time comes.

Thats ok- theyll fall over from a light breeze and break a couple of my models- that might get you DQ'd right there, and if nothing else they can just die first.

 

Since were all being ridiculous.

[greatcrusade08]

The drop pods 'ramps' are not on the base of my grey hunter squad. They are not modeled onto the base of my grey hunter squad. This is just the same as my vindicators dozer blade is also not modeled onto my grey hunter squads bases. So, greatcrusade08 your claim "fins are part of the 'base' in that they are on the ground and are beng claimed for cover saves.. decorative elements dont give a cover save" is wrong. And your logic means that terrain, and anything else should not give cover. I think your wrong.

 

actually YOUR wrong... you should check your facts before making claims like this.. the rules are not concerning terrain cover saves but intervening models cover saves.. the two are different..

secondly decorative elements are not considered for cover saves what so ever, regardless of which model they are on.

 

the point about arguing that certain decorative elements are not on the base therefore can give cover saves is asinine.. whats stopping me modelling a wall that floats above the ground/base by 2mm and is pinned to the tank?

 

its all gravy anyways, since any decorative element is not considered for cover saves.. unless the fins are part of the hull they offer nothing

[dswanick]

Since were all being ridiculous.

QFT - And that's another good example of why the rules have to be viewed as a framework on how friends should play the game for the enjoyment of all, not as a list of absolute laws design to adjudicate a competative event between two opposing factions. :P (Thank god for BRB, Pg.2)

[Mithril hound]

Oh yes, the ramps are totally there for decorative purposes. Just like banners. They are optional just like banners. I am an onion.

[greatcrusade08]

Oh yes, the ramps are totally there for decorative purposes. Just like banners. They are optional just like banners. I am an onion.

 

youll have to forgive my sarcasm detector, its taken the day off.. was this meant as a rebuttle or was it a serious statement..

 

also what do you mean by onion (im having a stoopid day too)

[Mithril hound]

I was using ULTRA SARCASM!!! No but seriously, they are not optional decorative pieces. There are no other models, and especially not vehicles that have main 'body parts' that are intangible for game terms. If they were intangible they would not have modeled them. Even in fluff they would give cover...