Drop Pod Ramps?

[Grey Mage]

Oh yes, the ramps are totally there for decorative purposes. Just like banners. They are optional just like banners. I am an onion.

 

youll have to forgive my sarcasm detector, its taken the day off.. was this meant as a rebuttle or was it a serious statement..

 

also what do you mean by onion (im having a stoopid day too)

Hes saying the same thing I have, several times- the doors, petals, ramps, whatever on a drop pod arent optional. Theyre part of the standard model- as integral as the doors on a rhino, or the tracks on a vindicator- and theyre not decorative.

 

Also, Id like an honest to god quote from the BRB that says you ignore decorative elements that block line of sight to other models.

[greatcrusade08]

page 21 intervening models

 

scenic rocks and other decorative elements that players might have placed on the base of thier models are always ignored from the point of view of detemining cover

 

any decorative elements are ignored from the pont of view of determining cover.

its already establishd that anything not considered hull is considered a decorative element.. its all in this thread..

 

if your aguing the fins are part of the hull, then i would argue you would have to take them into account when landing the pod.. you would also be able to deploy your squad within 2" of them, couldnt cross them with movement and the enemy couldnt come within an inch of them..

Is that what your saying?

 

also mithril hound.. fluff says the doors are blown away on landing, therefore no longer part of the vehicle..

 

it sounds as though you guys want your cake and eat it too.. you dont want to classify the fins as part of the hull, but want cover saves from it... sorry guys, it doesnt work like that..

if its not hull its deocrative... simples..

 

edit:

Also, Id like an honest to god quote from the BRB that says you ignore decorative elements that block line of sight to other models.

If it blocks LOS you cant shoot, if it partially blocks LOS then you can shoot but it doesnt offer cover.. as ive repeatedly said LOS has little to do with cover saves.. if you have LOs you cn shoot, if not you cant.. as for what constitutes cover saves then you have to refer to the rules.

drop pods ramps dont block LOS.. and dont count for cover saves

[Mithril hound]

Wow........ you are wrong. "that players might have placed on the base of thier models" Ok lets do this. I will explain to you about bases. They are the circular piece of black plastic that the model is placed on. Are the drop pods ramps on the squads base? No. Are the wings on the base? No. Are you wrong? Yes.

 

And anywho, in all the art i have seen drop pod fins seem to stay on. If one launched a cluster of pods, or launched a pod or two down by allied forces.... well lets just say i wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of one of those ramps.

[greatcrusade08]

Wow........ you are wrong. "that players might have placed on the base of thier models" Ok lets do this. I will explain to you about bases. They are the circular piece of black plastic that the model is place on. Are the drop pods ramps on the squads base? No. Are the wings on the base? No. Are you wrong? Yes.

 

how about this... if the drop pod had a base would the fins be on it?

answer yes..

 

but as i said whats to stop me modelling some decorative elements aslong as i dont attach them to the base? ooh suddenly by your logic i can get me cover saves..

 

we can talk anout wings and banners til the cows come hime, but its of topic, this is about drop pods.. this particular quote works with drop pods becuase they are on the ground, hence where the base would be if it had one...

 

you seem to have this idea that if the cover isnt on the squads ase recieveing the cover save then it doesnt count, your severly mistaken.. a model cant get cover save from items on its own base under the heading a model cannot bring cover with it.. a model can get cover save from another model, but not decorative elements on ITS base

[Mithril hound]

Ok then, tell me whats so special about these ramps which puts them into a new category? Since when did they become the equivalent of a helmet, or a rock that has been glued to a base.....

[greatcrusade08]

Ok then, tell me whats so special about these ramps which puts them into a new category? Since when did they become the equivalent of a helmet, or a rock that has been glued to a base.....

 

anything thats not part of the hull is considered a decorative element...

have you got a quote that beats that?

 

its the same as the assault ramps on a land raider, if they were part of the hull, you couldnt by RAW cross them or place models on them... how would you then get out of the vehicle?

 

what we are talking about here is intervening models giving cover saves... so lets take this slowly if scenery and other decorative elements stop you getting a save on the model they are on, then they dont count for models they intervene either.. its really that simple

 

to be able to shoot a vehicle you must first be able to see its hull (pg 60), if you cant see the fins to shoot at them how can they hamper shooting at units behind to grant a cover save (pg 21)

 

edit: show me the rule that says you MUST deploy the fins on a drop pod?... it will be next to the quote that says you must open the assault ramps and doors of a raider/rhino when a unit gets out..

Oh you cant find it.. thats becuase it doesnt exist.. becuase the opening of a drop pod is optional, the fins cannot count as anything other than decoration, becuase they dont HAVE to be there

[Mithril hound]

well, why are they not part of the hull? I'm not bothered if a player chooses not to open them and claims that you lose LOS due to it, or if a player wants to open them(as long as they do not go in to difficult/dangerous terrain. They look more like the hull than anything else on the pod.

[greatcrusade08]

oh dear weve come down to arguing what a word means in order to try and win an argument

 

definition of hull:

a.Nautical. The frame or body of a ship, exclusive of masts, engines, or superstructure.

b.The main body of various other large vehicles, such as a tank, airship, or flying boat.

 

i would class doors/fins as superstructure, as they arent part of the main body.. if they were they wouldnt be able to open/come loose.

if you look at naval ships as an example the doorways/ramps etc arent considered part of the 'hull' they are the superstructure

[Mithril hound]

They make up most of the mass of the drop pod, like a tardis that has doors on all four sides. I would go with them as the 'hull'.

[greatcrusade08]

the tardis only had one set of doors.. but again we are off topic..

 

the fins cannot be part of the main body as they can be raised and lowered (just like arms on a human).. name another vehcile that can open its 'hull' (doors arent part of the hull)

 

if you did want ti claim it as part of the hull then you change the dynamics of the game, you could technically create a line of drop pods to stop the enemy from reching your troops (they cant come within an inch of the fins unless they assault them..

also means you could disembark several inches from the main body which is silly.. also means the enemy could charge and assault the fins..

 

i could go on forever, making the fins part of the hull is just plain stupid in gameplay terms

[greatcrusade08]

what no rebuttles?

 

heres something else to mull over

the doors, petals, ramps, whatever on a drop pod arent optional. Theyre part of the standard model- as integral as the doors on a rhino, or the tracks on a vindicator- and theyre not decorative.

So are the barrells on the weapons yet they are specifically mentioned under decorative items..

also note that whilst the doors arent optional, opening them is optional.. and as such dont count for cover saves

 

you cant model a rhinos door to open and then claim a cover save from it, closed its part of the vehicle, open its decorative

[Gentlemanloser]

There are no other models, and especially not vehicles that have main 'body parts' that are intangible for game terms. If they were intangible they would not have modeled them. Even in fluff they would give cover...

 

Valkyrie wings?

[greatcrusade08]

this topic is pretty much cut and dry tbh.. as ive said all along it comes down to whether o not you consider the fin s to be part of the hull..

if they are ive not seen an ounce of proof other than personal opinion.. even the meaning of the word hull precludes them from being so..

 

as they arent hull they have no effect on the game.

[Grey Mage]

page 21 intervening models

 

scenic rocks and other decorative elements that players might have placed on the base of thier models are always ignored from the point of view of detemining cover

 

any decorative elements are ignored from the pont of view of determining cover.

its already establishd that anything not considered hull is considered a decorative element.. its all in this thread..

 

if your aguing the fins are part of the hull, then i would argue you would have to take them into account when landing the pod.. you would also be able to deploy your squad within 2" of them, couldnt cross them with movement and the enemy couldnt come within an inch of them..

Is that what your saying?

Drop Pod ramps are most certainly not 'scenic rocks or other decorative elements that players have placed on the base', would be what Im saying.

 

Because thats like saying that the lascannon in your marines arms is a scenic rock, or the forgeworld doors on that landraider are decorative elements. It doesnt have to be part of the hull to block line of sight is what Im saying.

 

And you have still failed to give a quote that says otherwise. All youve shown is what I already knew- if I put a wall on my marines base and have him ducking behind it he doesnt count as in cover- no duh.

 

As for the fins/ramps et all being taken into account- yeah, that would be fine. I dont play them that way- mine are glued in the upright position- but that would be perfectly amicable.

 

There are no other models, and especially not vehicles that have main 'body parts' that are intangible for game terms. If they were intangible they would not have modeled them. Even in fluff they would give cover...

 

Valkyrie wings?

Yes, in the event that a model is obscured by the wings of a valkyrie then it would get a cover save.

 

you cant model a rhinos door to open and then claim a cover save from it, closed its part of the vehicle, open its decorative

 

Prove it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes, in the event that a model is obscured by the wings of a valkyrie then it would get a cover save.

 

IIRC skimmers don't ever block LoS. Also the wings aren't used to measure to or from. You can't assault a wing, deploy from it, or measure shooting range to it.

[Meatman]

*Facepalm* How many of these drop pod ramp threads are there? How many has ever got things resolved?

 

Page 2 of the BRB, all who read this, do everyone a favor and the read "THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE"

 

Trying to win at all costs will not make any friends, and as we all know, the rules do not cover every possible outcome. You cannot argue that RAW one thing makes sense, then in your next breath claim that a different RAW shouldn't happen. Some times you have to come to a fair compromise. RAW, you cannot target space marines at all, as you cannot see their torso, arms or legs (or head if they wear a helmet), as the armour is in the way. You could go to all sorts of quite frankly silly measures. I could pile 30 dead marines on a rhino, and as they aren't part of a scenic base I could claim they block TLOS too...

 

 

In addition

 

Page 16 BRB "there are border-line cases when it is quite hard to decide if a model can see a target or not, but sporting players will always be generous and give their opponent the benefit of the doubt."

 

 

This is clearly a roll off or gray area situation, more so then the horrific "land raider and smoke" thread I had the misfortune of starting.

[Valerian]

anything thats not part of the hull is considered a decorative element...

 

Greatcrusade, that statement is a fairly significant assumption, and your entire argument rests upon it. However, where in the rules is this stated? The rules in no way as definitive as to say "everything but hull is decorative". Instead, some examples of decorative elements are given, and the onus is on us players to figure it out from there.

 

A banner is decorative, as is the body of a dead opponent on the base. Whereas weapons, ramps, and doors are inherent parts of the vehicle; they are part of the whole, and in no way decorative.

 

V

[Grey Mage]

Yes, in the event that a model is obscured by the wings of a valkyrie then it would get a cover save.

 

IIRC skimmers don't ever block LoS. Also the wings aren't used to measure to or from. You can't assault a wing, deploy from it, or measure shooting range to it.

Well, theres nothing about that in the skimmer rules..... so I think your confused.

 

And just because you dont measure to or from the wings doesnt mean that a unit in a building behind the valkyrie cant be obscured by them.

[greatcrusade08]

A banner is decorative, as is the body of a dead opponent on the base. Whereas weapons, ramps, and doors are inherent parts of the vehicle; they are part of the whole, and in no way decorative.

 

oops weapon barrells are covered ill think youll find...

 

It doesnt have to be part of the hull to block line of sight is what Im saying.

For the fiftieth time cover saves are diufferent to LOS.. LOS only determines if you can actually shoot.. cover saves is run by a different set of rules (in some cases you can bget a cover save even if the enemy has complete LOS to your whole body (between 2 trees etc)

 

OK ill agree that what defines a decorative item needs some clarification that the rule book doesnt give.. But seeing as how opening the drop pods fins are optional (theres no rule to say you must) then any extension of its 'basic' footprint must be deemed decorative.. like putting bigger doors on your land raider and whatnot.

Since they are not the hull what else can they be?

the onus isnt just on me to disprove your statement, you have to disprove mine too.

 

pg 60 says you have to see a vehciles hull in order to shoot at it.. if you cant see the body of the drop pod but can see its fins then technically according to RAW you cant see the drop pod..

so how can

the mechanic described on pg 21 about the 'intervening' model causing you to miss or whatnot, thus granting them a cover save.

 

like ive said all along you want everything good and nothing bad... well im sorry to burst bubbles but the world doesnt work that way.

 

there is a list of what constitutes decorative elements, and when you imagine the average LR or rhino everything listed is everything bar the hull.. any gun barrells, antenna or flags, anything that goes against the quote early on in the rulebook that suggest a vehicle only occupies the area of its hull (rulebook not with me, will get this out asap).

Note the list is not exclusive, it quite clearly says etc... it leaves this open for interpretation, which with some people is always a bad thing to do.. but as meatman suggest above, trying to claim cover saves from the fins of a drop pod is a completely beardy move IMO.

 

and as ive said before the fins must completely obscure the legs of a marine on order to grant a cover save.. which they dont.... so NO my argument doesnt solely revlove around one point... ive yet had no rebuttle to these other arguments

[Grey Mage]

It doesnt have to be part of the hull to block line of sight is what Im saying.

For the fiftieth time cover saves are diufferent to LOS.. LOS only determines if you can actually shoot.. cover saves is run by a different set of rules (in some cases you can bget a cover save even if the enemy has complete LOS to your whole body (between 2 trees etc)

 

OK ill agree that what defines a decorative item needs some clarification that the rule book doesnt give.. But seeing as how opening the drop pods fins are optional (theres no rule to say you must) then any extension of its 'basic' footprint must be deemed decorative.. like putting bigger doors on your land raider and whatnot.

Since they are not the hull what else can they be?

the onus isnt just on me to disprove your statement, you have to disprove mine too.

Ive never said theyre not part of the hull. What Ive said is that they affect LOS, and grant cover saves like everything else that is not in fact part of the model(s) your shooting at. The only exception to this that I know of is the new BRB FAQ, wich states if multiple units are interlocking for cover saves the one closest to you does not receive one.

 

Also- if you look farther back in this thread- youll note that on C:SM DPs it is not optional to lower the doors.

 

pg 60 says you have to see a vehciles hull in order to shoot at it.. if you cant see the body of the drop pod but can see its fins then technically according to RAW you cant see the drop pod..

so how can

the mechanic described on pg 21 about the 'intervening' model causing you to miss or whatnot, thus granting them a cover save.

 

like ive said all along you want everything good and nothing bad... well im sorry to burst bubbles but the world doesnt work that way.

Actually, again your wrong- this is handily covered by the clause that a model cant bring its cover with it- wether or not its decorative, its stated in plain english that a model cant grant itself a cover save. Same thing goes for the siege shield on a vindicator- wich has been repeatedly noted as a 'decorative element' by a number of posters in this thread.

 

there is a list of what constitutes decorative elements, and when you imagine the average LR or rhino everything listed is everything bar the hull.. any gun barrells, antenna or flags, anything that goes against the quote early on in the rulebook that suggest a vehicle only occupies the area of its hull (rulebook not with me, will get this out asap).

Note the list is not exclusive, it quite clearly says etc... it leaves this open for interpretation, which with some people is always a bad thing to do.. but as meatman suggest above, trying to claim cover saves from the fins of a drop pod is a completely beardy move IMO.

 

and as ive said before the fins must completely obscure the legs of a marine on order to grant a cover save.. which they dont.... so NO my argument doesnt solely revlove around one point... ive yet had no rebuttle to these other arguments

Do you count the doors on a rhino as decorative elements? That is to say, if you can draw a straight line through the rhinos door to a target will you allow your opponent to shoot the squad on the other side with a 4+ cover save? I doubt it, but perhaps your just crazy enough to think so.

 

As for the DP Doors- yes, they can contribute to a model being obscured. Example- DP ramp falls on a hill, raising the hill by about 1/4 inch, wich is enough to block 50% of the daemon prince on the other side of the hill when before it would not have been. Comparing the thickness of the DP to a standard marine the base will take up most of the ramp, but the entirety of his feet will be covered. While that would not be enough for me to call a cover save, it would add to any other things that were in the way- the edge of a building hiding one arm, and a thick stand of trees covering the shoulders and helment.... none of those by itself would do it for me, but the combined sum of it certainly would.

 

Of course, RAW, the feet are part of the Legs, and thus when they are obscured so is the entire model. If atleast half the models in the squad had the ramp between themselves and the firer they could technically call for a cover save, and as an intervening unit it would come standard at 4+.

[greatcrusade08]

pg 60 says you have to see a vehciles hull in order to shoot at it.. if you cant see the body of the drop pod but can see its fins then technically according to RAW you cant see the drop pod..

so how can

the mechanic described on pg 21 about the 'intervening' model causing you to miss or whatnot, thus granting them a cover save.

 

like ive said all along you want everything good and nothing bad... well im sorry to burst bubbles but the world doesnt work that way.

 

Actually, again your wrong- this is handily covered by the clause that a model cant bring its cover with it- wether or not its decorative, its stated in plain english that a model cant grant itself a cover save. Same thing goes for the siege shield on a vindicator- wich has been repeatedly noted as a 'decorative element' by a number of posters in this thread.

 

How can i be wrong, im quoting actual quotes and passages here.. i think perhaps your reading something different..

its already established that a model cant bring its own cover with it.. but by that same token that same 'cover' couldnt then be used as an intervening cover save for another model

my point is if you cant technically see the drop pods fins (you have to see the hull in order to see the vehicle) then it cannot offer a cover save.

 

Do you count the doors on a rhino as decorative elements? That is to say, if you can draw a straight line through the rhinos door to a target will you allow your opponent to shoot the squad on the other side with a 4+ cover save? I doubt it, but perhaps your just crazy enough to think so.

And apparently a mod on this very forum thinks its ok to suggestively insult someone :P

 

as for the rules if it blocks LOS thats a different rule and a different argument, but once the doors are 'opened' or are modelled as such then they are decorative.. i.e they dont need to be opened but becuase they are they offer a bonus in terms of cover.. its optional therfore decorative

 

As for the DP Doors- yes, they can contribute to a model being obscured. Example- DP ramp falls on a hill, raising the hill by about 1/4 inch, wich is enough to block 50% of the daemon prince on the other side of the hill when before it would not have been. Comparing the thickness of the DP to a standard marine the base will take up most of the ramp, but the entirety of his feet will be covered. While that would not be enough for me to call a cover save, it would add to any other things that were in the way- the edge of a building hiding one arm, and a thick stand of trees covering the shoulders and helment.... none of those by itself would do it for me, but the combined sum of it certainly would.

 

Of course, RAW, the feet are part of the Legs, and thus when they are obscured so is the entire model. If atleast half the models in the squad had the ramp between themselves and the firer they could technically call for a cover save, and as an intervening unit it would come standard at 4+.

 

the rulebook quite clearly defines body parts.. being the head, torso arms and legs.. now im pretty sure i dont need to tell you that thew word obscured means hidden from view..

so for a model to get a cover save it must have a body part obscured by cover... feet may be part of the legs but if the whole of the legs isnt covered you dont get it, becuase the rulebook describes legs as a body part not feet

in terms of making lots of partially obscured body parts = a cover save, that would be a discussion for you and your opponent.. i would personally allow it, but its not what we are discussing here.

 

since the ramps dont have to be lowered.. they would too be defined as decorative.. its optional to have them down and by doing so you gain a bonus which you wouldnt normally have...

 

Ive never said theyre not part of the hull.

then your saying they ARE part of the hull...

good luck with that.. it seems i wont find a rational opponent in this argument.. good luck playing with yourself...

[Mithril hound]

Ok. If your space marine is obscured by land raider sponsons, or the arm of a defiler or a dread..... you believe it should not get a cover save. I think most gamers will disagree with that point.

[greatcrusade08]

Ok. If your space marine is obscured by land raider sponsons, or the arm of a defiler or a dread..... you believe it should not get a cover save. I think most gamers will disagree with that point.

 

ive never said either of those things, so please check your facts..

a defiler/dread is a walker so arms and whatnot will grant cover saves.. but gun barrels and other decorative elements wont.. the arms are not optional therefore not decorative but essential..

having your vehciles doors open is optional and decorative.

 

and just to clarify if a space marine is obscured he wont get a cover save, because you couldnt shoot at him to begin with

 

edit: i like the way everyone focusses on the ONE element that requires some interpretation.. never mind the actual RAW arguments, those dont matter aslong as they make it appear that im wrong in this case

[thade]

It doesnt have to be part of the hull to block line of sight is what Im saying.

^This.

 

True Line of Sight is pretty straight forward. Either you see it or you don't. This is one of those things where searching for consistency is folly; not all Drop Pods are created equal. This is true of a great many models GW puts out, not the least of which being older Rhinos vs newer Rhinos...the latter ones being larger and offering greater cover for it. I for one have a hard time imagining how much I might see of a given unit if the sponson wasn't on a LR, for instance, nor do I have the mind to ask my opponent to remove it as it's "not part of the hull". If I can't see the models, I can't see them. Period. Give them the 4+; it's not a big deal. :D

[greatcrusade08]

TLOS and cover saves for interveening models are two seperate issues though.. if you cant see a model then you cant shoot him so cover saves are irrelavent.. im purposely not getting involved in that argument.

cover saves are a different matter becasue as stated earlier you can in some conditions get a cover save even with clear LOS to the enemy.

 

The decorative elements dont dissapear for TLOS but they dont give a cover save as specified on page 21 of the BRB under intervening models

 

in this instance a drop pods ramps are not high enough to obscure a marines legs anyway so whether we agree if they count for cover or not is immaterial.. they dont give it anyway

 

@thade: would a sponson counts as the hull though??? the barrels of the guns are decorative but how much more would be?