Grey Knight Terminators

[Godhead]

I am building a small fun IG list, but I want to run Grey Knights.

Atm I am waffling on which to use. GKT or PAGK.

 

Intially I was leaning toward PAGT so I could load them up in a Vendetta and send them off. After a very small trial game against the stepson, I was left a bit unimpressed with stormbolters and nfw. They weren't the offensive punch I had hoped they would be for the weak IG.

 

So now I am considering using GKT's Str 6 powerweapons is MUCH better than reg str 6 weapons. and I am curious to see how they play by having the ability to teleport on the field and/or hop a ride in a chimera.

 

ATM though I dont have GKT's (only the PAGK) and work (and my space wolf army) has kept me away from trying them out via proxys. I was wondering how they play for those with more experience with them. I'd also love any tips/tricks/wargear must haves as the codex is old and things like a SS/TH isn't a no brainer or maybe even a viable option. So please help out a GK newb.

 

Thanks

[Grand Master Caloth]

it also depends on if you are planning to spend a little more and take the Grand Master or settle for a Brother Captain. I ALWAYS run my Grand Master with my Grey Knights army, because the "I still kill EW" Force Weapons are wicked. But otherwise... I think you will find the Terminators totally brutal in the assault, and i dont think you will be disappointed

[Grandal]

A friend of mine runs an IG army and he absolutely loves the 5 man PAGK he has stolen from me. He throws them in a Valkyrie, scouts them 12" away from whatever non landraider his opponent has and disembarks toward it in round 1. Moving 6" and assaulting 6" means he gets to auto hit the tank in round 1 with his strength 6 NFW 11 times. This is, of course, only if he gets to go first. He also steals my Inq. Lord w/ mystics and hood with the Emperor's Tarot to help get that first round. Makes them a nasty surprise if you use them like this. Even if he doesn't get to go first they are a perfectly viable counter assault unit for you.

 

The GKT on the other hand may be a different story. Although they among the strongest assault units in the game they are going to have transportation issues with the IG parent list. You are going to wind up foot slogging them (I recommend psycannons if you do this) or teleporting them in... with all the risks involved in that. At nearly twice the price of the PAGK I hesitate to recommend them. The normal GK are nearly guaranteed to make their points up but the GKT, not having the new 3++ storm shields, might struggle to do so.

[Gaz1858]

So now I am considering using GKT's Str 6 powerweapons is MUCH better than reg str 6 weapons. and I am curious to see how they play by having the ability to teleport on the field and/or hop a ride in a chimera.

 

You want these guys on the field from the get go. Their Shining rule can neutralise a unit or two's shooting if your lucky and it also gives your Storm Bolter shots from the start to. As for riding in a Chimera i dont think they can!

 

ATM though I dont have GKT's (only the PAGK) and work (and my space wolf army) has kept me away from trying them out via proxys. I was wondering how they play for those with more experience with them. I'd also love any tips/tricks/wargear must haves as the codex is old and things like a SS/TH isn't a no brainer or maybe even a viable option. So please help out a GK newb.

 

How many are ypu planning on including? Minimum is three. Keep the NFW and then take either a Psycannon or an Incinerator. You may also be able to give the Brother Captain a Psycannon or Incinerator aswell. In terms of Wargear options Holocaust can be a bit of fun but not hugely neccessary. The only thing you need to give your GKT's is either more models or aforementioned weapons.

 

Are you planning on taking a Grand Master with GKT retinue or just the GKT Elites choice?

[Chengar Qordath]

The GKT on the other hand may be a different story. Although they among the strongest assault units in the game they are going to have transportation issues with the IG parent list. You are going to wind up foot slogging them (I recommend psycannons if you do this) or teleporting them in... with all the risks involved in that. At nearly twice the price of the PAGK I hesitate to recommend them. The normal GK are nearly guaranteed to make their points up but the GKT, not having the new 3++ storm shields, might struggle to do so.

I'm pretty sure that there's nothing in the rules that disallows putting GKTs in a Chimera. They would have to steal a Chimera that's a dedicated transport for another unit, but that should not be a huge problem for most Guard lists.

 

Against the right opponents, GKTs have plenty of cc punch. Strength six power weapons all around can do about as much damage as lightning claws (depends on target toughness) and GKTs still have shooting before they charge. As always, target selection is key; throwing GKTs at Howling Banshees or Genestealers is a waste of points, but they are great at taking down really tough shooty infantry like Plague Marines or standard tactical Terminators.

[Gentlemanloser]

It all depends on delivery.

 

Deepstriking some GKT with the aim of CC isn't usually a great idea. And to be honest, even with the GK amazing stat-line (you can come close to replicating it, but not easily), they don't seem to have the required 'punch' in CC any more. I blame True Grit, and the inability for PAGK to ever get a charge attack. Which is *very* noticable in 5th's "Everyone has Ultra-Grit or better" wargear.

 

Why pay 25 points for a Marine with 2 S6 attacks, when you can pay a fraction of that for Marines with 3-4 S4 attacks (on the charge)?

 

GKT are great, but WGT are better. Plus they're scoring. The problem with GKT is they die to everything normal Terminators do (weight of fire, or Plasma), cost more and can't have access to the near manditory 3++ SS save.

 

You might get the best bang for your bucks (so to speak) with a small PAGK Squad in a Valk, with 2 Incinerators. Only disembark to Flame Scouts/Pathfinders/other annoying Cover save/Invulnerable Save units to death. And having some solid CC for any counter attacks.

 

Unless you're facing Daemons, in which case abuse 'Rites' as much as possible, while avoiding 'crushers, 'letters, Flamers and the Skulltaker.

 

Really, the best thing PAGK S6 NFWs are for curently, is melting Tanks by hiting rear armour in CC. There, they are pure win. :sweat:

[Godhead]

I had intended to run the Grandmaster and either 4 or 5 GKT as a retinue. Yes they cannot get the 3++ save from a stormshield, but they also follow the old retinue rules so that gives a bit of survivability in another form for the GM. I'll have to dig up where I read it, but I was pretty sure I read that terminators can indeed ride in chimeras.

 

What is WGT? Wolfguard terminators? If so they may be better, but they are not an option so the comparison is irrelevant.

 

If the GKT teleport in, then the plan ideally is to have a chimera near for pick up. Most likely though, I'd just start with them on the table and just hitch a ride to where they need to go.

 

The other thing that im considering trying to make work with a combined DH/IG list is Straken, who gives counter attack, and furious charge. Counter attack is basically a wash with the way true grit is handled with Grey Knights, but FC would definately be money.

[Justicar Valius]

They are awseome in assault.

 

GM, hammerhand, psychic hood, 175

retinue: 4GKT, incinerator (all NFW and stomr bolter), 199

 

This unit kills easily any 4+ unit with the incinerator and etas hive tyrants for breckfast.

[Gentlemanloser]

I had intended to run the Grandmaster and either 4 or 5 GKT as a retinue. Yes they cannot get the 3++ save from a stormshield, but they also follow the old retinue rules so that gives a bit of survivability in another form for the GM. I'll have to dig up where I read it, but I was pretty sure I read that terminators can indeed ride in chimeras.

 

It's just a hang over from old-Codex-itus. Terminators should be classed as Ogrin for what they can ride in, but there are no Terminators available in the IG 'dex, so it's not needed (IIRC Ogrin can't ride in Chimeras, can they?).

 

Then we get an old Codex, that allows allying Terminators, and it screws with new Dex balance.

 

By RAW Termies can ride in Chimera. They could also ride in Valks, until that was quickly FAQed.

 

What is WGT? Wolfguard terminators? If so they may be better, but they are not an option so the comparison is irrelevant.

 

It's a comparison to show how out of date GKT are, regardless of thir stat line. That they're not an option, and conversley that GKT are, is only becuase of outdated rules.

 

If the GKT teleport in, then the plan ideally is to have a chimera near for pick up. Most likely though, I'd just start with them on the table and just hitch a ride to where they need to go.

 

DSing them down means they eat Plasma for a turn (or Rapid Fire weapons if they DSed close). It's still a really bad move, and most likely death. Hitching a ride in a Chimera (and hiding behind one at deployment) is the better way to go.

 

It's all about delivery. :cuss

 

They are awseome in assault.

 

It's all about getting them there. :D

[Chengar Qordath]

It's just a hang over from old-Codex-itus. Terminators should be classed as Ogrin for what they can ride in, but there are no Terminators available in the IG 'dex, so it's not needed (IIRC Ogrin can't ride in Chimeras, can they?).

Ogryn can ride in Chimeras, but they take up two slots.

 

Interestingly, the entry for the Chimera in the DH Codex does not say Terminators are barred from using Chimeras (in contrast to the Rhino entry right below it). Furthermore, the armory entry for Terminator Armor says nothing about Terminators taking up two slots in transports (this is instead reflected in the entries for GK Land Raiders) so by RAW each GKT would only take up one slot in a Chimera

[Valerian]

It all depends on delivery.

 

True

 

GKT are great, but WGT are better. Plus they're scoring.

 

Wolf Guard Terminators aren't scoring. Unless you've attached them to other units, separately, as Leaders. Or if you take a specific special character (Logan Grimnar) to make them scoring. But, as Godhead said, he can't ally in Logan Grimnar or his Wolf Guard Terminators, so it isn't all that relevant.

 

Really, the best thing PAGK S6 NFWs are for curently, is melting Tanks by hiting rear armour in CC. There, they are pure win. :D

 

True, but IG with all of their tanks and high-strength tank armament already have pretty good anti-tank capability. What IG do not have, and what Godhead is trying to get, is some formidable assault force, which the PAGK are decent at, but a GKT unit is excellent at. Sure, there are better assault units out there in the game, but you can't disregard 3 each Relic Blade equivilant attacks each on the charge (more for the Brother Captain or Grand Master) preceded by a Storm Bolter + Incinerator and/or Psycannon volley. Also, the Brother Captain or Grand Master can take advantage of the old Retinue "hidden character" rule, which makes them a huge threat to anything on the table (especially with the *special* auto-kill GM Force Weapon. Oh, and they're all Weapon Skill 5, which means they hit most opponents 2/3 of the time instead of 1/2 the time in close combat.

 

They don't get the good Storm Shields, but can always use those IG vehicles to walk behind, getting 4+ Cover Saves as they move. It doesn't help them in close combat, but there aren't many opponents that can live through their assault to retaliate against them.

 

The important point to remember is that there are other units that will be a threat to your GKT. For those units, just avoid them and use your other IG resources (pie plates) to deal with.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Gentlemanloser]

Ogryn can ride in Chimeras, but they take up two slots.

 

Ah! My lack of knowledge of the IG 'dex showing through. ;)

 

What IG do not have, and what Godhead is trying to get, is some formidable assault force, which the PAGK are decent at, but a GKT unit is excellent at. Sure, there are better assault units out there in the game, but you can't disregard 3 each Relic Blade equivilant attacks each on the charge (more for the Brother Captain or Grand Master) preceded by a Storm Bolter + Incinerator and/or Psycannon volley. Also, the Brother Captain or Grand Master can take advantage of the old Retinue "hidden character" rule, which makes them a huge threat to anything on the table (especially with the *special* auto-kill GM Force Weapon. Oh, and they're all Weapon Skill 5, which means they hit most opponents 2/3 of the time instead of 1/2 the time in close combat.

 

While they're probably the best option for an IG army to take, I disagree that GKT remain one of the premier assault units. With with old Force Weapons and NFWs (Not counting other out of date codexes of course!).

 

A GM with a minimum retinue and an Incinerator with nothing else sets you back just shy of 300 points. Which is more than enough for a full squad of another armies Assault Units (well bar Hammernators, but even then you'll get 7 'nilla Hammernators who will wipe the floor with this squad), all of which will probably beat this unit, as it's really too small for CC in 5th.

 

I just feel it's too many points, for a unit that is far to vulnerable. And that even lacking CC presence, an IG army would be better off spending those 300 points on the far more, efficent, options from thier own codex. ;)

 

Edit: Thought I'd add that there are a few cases where the Retinue rule doesn't really help (Telion/Vindicare aside, there's Arjac and I'm sure at least one other 'call out the IC' charcater around), and that our WS5 is really a wash with other dedicated Assault units getting rerool. Either form Chaplins, or the wealth of 'prefered enemy' out there, which we have no access to.

[Justicar Valius]

Indeed they can ride in Chimeras, your opponent will think it's just another unassuming chimera with guardsmen in. Hey, why is it getting so close? Ahhhh GKT!

[Gentlemanloser]

Indeed they can ride in Chimeras, your opponent will think it's just another unassuming chimera with guardsmen in. Hey, why is it getting so close? Ahhhh GKT!

 

LoL! If only we didn't have to reveal who starts in what transport sin 5th. ;)

[Justicar Valius]

oh yeh, darn. I live in the older editions, you know, my codex is 3rd edition after all.

[number6]

In the context of an IG list, GKs of any stripe qualify as "good in assault". :D

 

In reality, PAGKs are still a pretty decent assault unit. They are about the equivalent of most codex elite assault units. You don't want to throw them at enemy dedicated assault units (e.g., BA DC with a chappy in tow), but honestly, GKs have never been "the best" assault army anyway. They were really all about balance: shooting and assault. It's up to you to know what the best tactic is at any given time.

 

GKTs are still one of the best assault units in the game. As already stated, they have the same weaknesses as any terminator, but any unit that can actually get stuck in with dedicated assault units like SM TH/SS termies and win is not to be dismissed. An enemy that is not frightened of GKTs is not a wise opponent. ;)

 

All that said, GKs/GKTs are only useful if you know when, where, and how to apply them. You can't just throw them out unsupported and expect miracles. GKs and/or GKTs wonderfully complement the IG, so you can't go wrong with either choice.

 

But I would strongly recommend not focusing exclusively on their assault potential and actually make solid use of their shooting. Combine this with the absolute need for safe delivery on target and I think the deployment choice in an IG army becomes obvious.

 

Answer: Chimeras!

 

For every GK/GKT unit you take, be sure you have a spare Chimera they can borrow. Always include psycannons in the unit, too. What you're aiming for is a deadly torrent-of-fire mobile, armoured firebase. Since 5 models can shoot out the top hatch, be sure you can do that! A basic Chimera with turret multilaser and hull heavy flamer with 5 GKTs or 5 PAGKs inside -- along with 2 psycanons, ideally -- is an incredible offensive weapon. It will be pumping out 9 S6 shots per turn plus 6 S5 shots per turn. Nobody will want to tangle with the angry GKs that spill out when the ride is destroyed, either.

[Gentlemanloser]

But if you're only taking them for a mobile firebase, why not take some more Leman Russes? :D

 

5 PAGK with 2 Psycannons is 200 points.

 

You can get another Leman Russ (possibly with Sponsons!) for that! ;)

[Valerian]

But if you're only taking them for a mobile firebase, why not take some more Leman Russes? ;)

 

Number6 didn't say to only take them for a mobile firebase, he said to be sure to make use of their solid shooting. In other words, make the most out of the GKT and do not focus on their close combat ability only.

 

Yes, to be sure, if were all about their shooting, then no doubt another Leman Russ added to the force would be sufficient. But it is about leveraging their not insignificant shooting ability with their very formidable close combat ability - using them to their full effectiveness to fill gaps in an IG force that they don't otherwise have the ability to fill.

 

V

[Justicar Valius]

GKTs are only useful if you know when, where, and how to apply them. You can't just throw them out unsupported and expect miracles.

I disagree, GKT with a GM addmitedly will perfrom better than any unit I've come across for the points. Take my last game for example.

 

19 horogaunts (one got killed via rhino stormbolter), Hive tyrant that was on full wounds, 2 zoanthropes, and 2 termegaunts (stormbolter shot at the end).

 

Was great sucsess!

[Gentlemanloser]

I disagree

 

As do I. ;)

 

Last game I used them in, their LR got imobilized, then they got Plasma-d to death without killing anything significant. :)

 

using them to their full effectiveness to fill gaps in an IG force that they don't otherwise have the ability to fill.

 

And my point remians that a bare bones GKT or PAGK squad doesn't fill any sort of CC deficeincy that the IG list has. They re just too small, too expensive and too fragile in the current game.

[number6]

And my point remians that a bare bones GKT or PAGK squad doesn't fill any sort of CC deficeincy that the IG list has. They re just too small, too expensive and too fragile in the current game.

Nobody's arguing that an IG army -- any IG army -- needs GKs/GKTs.

 

My point is that you can do so to great effect. And if you do decide to include them, be sure to leverage all of their capabilities, not just their NFWs.

 

Beyond that, this topic must cease to exist if we're not talking about the GKs. :rolleyes:

[Inquisitor Fox]

I think one of the keys is remembering we're not mindless genestealers. A GKT squad does fantastically... if you remember to whittle things down with firepower, use terrain and maneuvering to your advantage, and remember you're not a dedicated assault troop. Even units in Crusaders don't slam into unweakened assault troops and expect to win, the trick is weakening things and playing smart and opportunistic. I've used a GKT squad as a firepower base and counter-assault troop and been pretty happy with it. It's about supplementing the rest of your army, not replacing it. At least in my own experiences.

[Justicar Valius]

I use them like genestealers... in a LRC.

 

Point and click destruction. Doesn't everyone do this? Sure you get all the GKT shooting and the LRC shooting at the unit but still point and click destruction.

[number6]

I use them like genestealers... in a LRC.

 

Point and click destruction. Doesn't everyone do this? Sure you get all the GKT shooting and the LRC shooting at the unit but still point and click destruction.

Can't be done in an IG army. ;)

 

But to answer your question: I for one do not do this ... unless I build a list with two LRCs in it. And fully supported by melta ISTs, etc. Just the one LRC is so obvious a target that it is otherwise destroyed shortly after I point. I never get to the click. :lol:

[Daedalus Templarius]

They work really well when they have a sanguinary priest attached as well. S7 I5 hits pretty hard against most units.

 

I'd never footslog them(terminators), but I also own 4 landraiders, which kind of helps to cart them around the battlefield.

 

I find PAGK to be far too expensive for what you get, 25 points for a regular marine and 50 for the sergeant... crazy. For the price of one 5 man PAGK squad, I could have almost an entire assault squad(10 man), with special weapons and possibly a powerfist. GKTs are only about 6 points more than regular terminators, and can drop pie plates in assault.

 

Thankfully, my chapter's close ties to the inquisition mean they work with GKs on a regular basis :D