Tactical squad sergeants

[Captain Denaro]

It seems that most posters on this site give tac sgts power fists or power swords. I tend to use my tac squads as close shooty support to my assault squads, and therefore out of the 5 tactical squads I can field 1 sgt is armed with a storm bolter, 1 with a combi-plasma and 1 with a combi-melta. The other 2 have no upgrade.

 

I realise that combi/storm bolters are expensive upgrades for tactical squads, so was wondering what people think is the best option.

[Iron Father Rik]

I personally like to have a little something in my squads for eventualities that they could not otherwise deal with, such as getting charged by a dreadnought. I too mostly use my tactical squads for shooting support, but also for moving forward and capturing objectives. Whilst you can load them up with ranged wargear for taking out armour and tougher opponents, it can really ruin a tactical squad's day when they get charged by something that they can't deal with, such as a dreadnought. For that reason I like to add in a powerfist, or thunder hammer, into my tactical or assault squads.

[greatcrusade08]

a fist gets the nod as much as possible, with ten bodies an IC or dread can be taken out by a hidden fist.. something the odd storm bolter cant manage

[The Wunup Kid]

In addition to the above posts, it's worth pointing out that a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer in a Tac squad can also act as a deterrant to big nasties that intend on charging in and ruining your shooty unit's day. When they know they're very vulnerable to that combat's outcome, they might think twice about that assault.

[Jackelope King]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: power fists are usually not worth it in Tactical Squads in Codex: Space Marine armies that don't use special characters. Their improvement in performance against Dreads and Vehicles is marginal at best and only significant against MCs with many wounds left, and always comes at the expense of serious casualties to a squad that you rely on to win two out of three games. Toting melta-weaponry essentially closes the gap between power fists and going without power fists for 2/5ths of the price. And Combat Tactics really is just that good: you get charged? Against most foes, it's best to use Combat Tactics to retreat then rapid-fire on your turn, at least statistically.

 

They're really only worth considering when you're already trading off your Combat Tactics for another Chapter Tactics. In armies with Combat Tactics, though, they offer very marginal benefits and are at best a Hail Mary pass (yeah, we can all tell stories about how we insta-jibbed someone's HQ, but there are much better ways to do the job than throwing a non-close-combat squad into close combat against a close-combat monster; Hail Mary passes can win games, but if you're relying on a Hail Mary pass to win the game, you've made massive mistakes).

 

I keep my sergeants largely bone-standard. In my Biker army at 1750 points, my Sergeants will often pack combi-meltas. And I do stick power fists on my Sternguard Sergeants at 2500 points in a Pedro Kantor ambush army, but that plays completely differently from my normal Combat Tactics armies.

[Hellios]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: power fists are usually not worth it in Tactical Squads in Codex: Space Marine armies that don't use special characters. Their improvement in performance against Dreads and Vehicles is marginal at best and only significant against MCs with many wounds left, and always comes at the expense of serious casualties to a squad that you rely on to win two out of three games. Toting melta-weaponry essentially closes the gap between power fists and going without power fists for 2/5ths of the price. And Combat Tactics really is just that good: you get charged? Against most foes, it's best to use Combat Tactics to retreat then rapid-fire on your turn, at least statistically.

 

They're really only worth considering when you're already trading off your Combat Tactics for another Chapter Tactics. In armies with Combat Tactics, though, they offer very marginal benefits and are at best a Hail Mary pass (yeah, we can all tell stories about how we insta-jibbed someone's HQ, but there are much better ways to do the job than throwing a non-close-combat squad into close combat against a close-combat monster

 

While I disagree with Jackelope King... I do not see Tacticals as not being a combat squad, I don't see them as a shooty squad... I see them as doing what needs to be done squad... and what needs to be done depends a lot on how your army works. However I do agree that power fists are not mandatory although I must confess they appear very often in my space wolves and black templars army (not getting the extra attack makes my templars power fists less effective than a sgts), however the sgts in my Dark Angels army are nearly all armed with bolters and nothing else as the job of the tactical squads in my Dark Angels army is to sit on my board edge and shoot stuff. Other marine armies I have vary but it often depends how aggressively I play my tactical squads and when I know I'm going to get stuck in I often find they make their points back.

[greatcrusade08]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: power fists are usually not worth it in Tactical Squads in Codex: Space Marine armies that don't use special characters. Their improvement in performance against Dreads and Vehicles is marginal at best and only significant against MCs with many wounds left, and always comes at the expense of serious casualties to a squad that you rely on to win two out of three games. Toting melta-weaponry essentially closes the gap between power fists and going without power fists for 2/5ths of the price. And Combat Tactics really is just that good: you get charged? Against most foes, it's best to use Combat Tactics to retreat then rapid-fire on your turn, at least statistically.

 

first off, combat tactics only work once youve taken casualties, your hoping that they will shoot 3 marines dead or that they will chomp ya in cc, at which point theres no gaurantee to being able to run away. Whilst combat tactics is good you should never rely on it.

As for tacs being shooty. i.e melta being better than fists, then i would agree to a point and that point looks straight at players like myself, meatman etc, whos lists can chow down on a tac squad (or three) turn one, of course if those tac squads had PWs or fists then our HQs and elites are at great risk.. No?

 

My point is that no matter how good your tactics, you have to consider the what ifs, whats 25 points when youve spent almost 200 on a unit already?

Why buy a one use combi-melta for ten points if your bothered with cost?

[Jackelope King]

My point is that no matter how good your tactics, you have to consider the what ifs, whats 25 points when youve spent almost 200 on a unit already?

Why buy a one use combi-melta for ten points if your bothered with cost?

Why spend 25 more points on a Tactical Squad to make one model out of 10 contribute moderately to close combat resolution when those 25 points can upgrade a speeder to a HF/MM Speeder?

 

... buy a whole 'nother Biker Marine in my Bike Squads?

 

... upgrade two Attack Bikes to Multi-Melta Attack Bikes?

 

... almost buy me a Rhino for the Tactical Squad?

 

... upgrade a Predator to a Dakka Predator?

 

... buy that squad and four other squads meltaguns?

 

... buy pintel-mounted Multimeltas for two Land Raiders?

 

... give two more sergeants combi-weapons?

 

... buy my Master of the Forge a Conversion Beamer?

 

... upgrade my Dreadnought to a Rifleman Dread?

 

The strength of a Space Marine Tactical Squad is that is can provide a mean threat from inside a vehicle bunker and deny mid-field to the enemy, and it can also provide fair to moderate clean-up potential with rapid-firing bolters. Close combat is not their strength. And by the numbers, a power fist's advantage in fighting Walkers and against Vehicles is almost inconsequential (with the melta weaponry holding a pretty significant advantage in the latter and being almost dead even in the former). The only place where Fists really shine is against multiple-wound monstrous creatures... but do you really want your scoring Tactical Squad wrapped up in combat with a hive tyrant? Against most infantry-sized close-combat specialists, it's better to fall back and rapid-fire, even correcting for casualties.

 

Tactical Squads are not built for close combat. They can stomp the hell out of weaker units like Tau infantry and Imperial Guard and the like, but one power fist doesn't make that big of a difference. 25 points is too big a price tag for "what if I get caught in close combat" insurance, especially considering what other options I have to spend those points on.

 

*Again, all of this needs to be completely reevaluated when you play in an army without Combat Tactics. Stubborn armies in particular really benefit from fists much more than Ultramarine Successors.

[ImperialReaper]

I also did face that question a few times.

 

The thing is that I usualy dont want my tactical squads got get into clos combat. But in games under 1000pts lets be honest - this is hard to realise. If you arm your sergeant with a powerfist he will at least have a good chance to take one attacker out in close combat every turn it lasts. At least if you are playing against units with good armor or T5 and more this is a fairly good investment. In other cases as well as normal games around 1500pts I want my tacticals squads all shooty and I will most of the time able to save them from getting drawn into close combat. In this case the sergeant gets a stormbolter ( just love them - high range, 2 shots, stomweapon and all this for just 5 pts).

[TyrionTheImp]

I think the Powerfist and a combi-flamer are the best upgrades you can give a sarge.

 

The powerfist lets the tactical squad crush rear armor 10 tanks in assault, give the possibility of instant deathing an IC (which is a great assault deterrent), give something to smash walkers, and overall just give the tactical squad more umph. You can argue the multitude of other options you can do with 25 points, but the tactical squad is the cornerstone of C:SM, by giving them powerfists you can call them "good at everything, great at nothing" where before they were "good at most things, but can't do crap in CC", at least with the powerfist they can cause casualties to assault specialists in CC before using combat tactics to drop out, and give an extra kick against non CC specialists when you do charge. You don't HAVE to take them in every squad, but I highly recommend doing it in your "frontline" squads that are most likely to get stuck into assault. There is only so much you can do to keep your tacticals out of assault, and giving the powerfist can both add to keeping them out, or help if they do get stuck in.

 

Combi-flamers I use if I have the extra points, mostly because I only feel I ever get the "ideal" chance to use a flamer once per game, and since it doesn't rely on BS to hit, so you never have to worry about going "d'oh my combi-melta missed!". Also, this doesn't detract for ranged shooting either.

 

These two upgrades are 35 points together, you can get a Rhino for that much, but shouldn't they have a rhino anyways? I don't put this combo on every squad, but I do put it on my 'frontline' squads that are taking objectives, most likely to be in assault range.

 

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[pingo]

I think this thread just goes to show that you can pretty much use tactical squads in whatever way you want (within reason!) to help your army.

 

In other word: they are tactical squads.

[Master of the Shields]

Before I started playing i didn't think powerfists were necessary, especially for the cost. But then i played my first battles and i totally made an about face. Nearly every Tac squad in my Army has a fist, and when i look at it, it's like a guarantee. I ended up getting into a situation where my opponents Khorne Berzerkers got to charge me (Hey, it happens). And every assault turn, I regretted not having that fist, as by the time, my Marines lost combat enough to retreat, there was 2 berzerkers left chasing my Sarge and Plasmagunner. If he had a powerfist, those berzerkers would be looooong dead, and the tables would have turned, seeing as this mistake cost me the game.

[Koremu]

I give them a Power Fist if I intend them to operate without the support of another unit that has a Power Fist.

[Velkairiwyth]

In a competition list I would agree it is often worthwhile to take them fists, the deterrent value, armour penetration value, ability to hurt MCs and independant characters means that it can turn the squad from a unit unable to do something against them in CC to a reasonable threat...

 

For tailored lists I rarely take them though.

 

Against marines ignoring the armour is great - but there is very few units that your troops cannot avoid getting into CC with, but as mentioned - its kind of a guarantee. ICs, Dreadnoughts, terminators - will make a beeline for a unit as squish as a tactical squad... 11 CC attacks, 50% hitting 50% wounding - unable to penetrate armour and not ignoring armour saves = 1 or 2 dead troops when you attack them in exchange for a nice chunk of the opponent army...

 

Against armies like Orks or Nids where I know Im likely to be assaulted by boyz or gaunts who have very poor armour saves, but are likely to massacre on an assault - I dont cough up the points - although I like the combi-flamers against these armies!

 

I like the recommendation of putting them on frontline tac squads - but I tend to use my tac squads thrown in the back of razorbacks who only come out when I want to unleash a volley of fire into a unit, or to torch a unit off an objective and try to hold it, and spend the points on buffing everything else in my army. The Razorback will carry my heavy weapon - the sgt will carry a combi-special weapon, but the unit will only drop out the transport if necessary.

 

I used to run with full tactical squads but found that no matter how I kitted them they would get tied up with CC specialists and get massacred if they entered CC at all, often before being able to strike back - and if the unit is not capable of performing this massacre, a 5 man unit holds up well enough...

 

Just my 2p ;D

[TyrionTheImp]

Against armies like Orks or Nids where I know Im likely to be assaulted by boyz or gaunts who have very poor armour saves, but are likely to massacre on an assault - I dont cough up the points - although I like the combi-flamers against these armies!

 

That's the reason I take both fists and combi-flamers.

 

I don't take tailored lists, if I did, my friend would NEVER win, mostly because I know how everything ticks more than he does, but I always build lists as take-all-comers sorts (not of tournament quality though) with usually a general theme in place to follow.

 

A lot of people like the bare bones Sarges, some people like giving them all the nice and shiny things, it's really a matter of how you use your tactical squads. Personally, I see tacticals as the strength of the Space Marine army. Our basic troops are usually better than anyone else's in at least one way whether its better shooting, our ridiculous special rules, or even just the 3+ armour save. I like to tool mine up so they become even better and more versatile, while others might think they're good as is and go for a more minimalist approach, spending the points in other more specialized areas. I'm also a follower of the philosophy of "plan for the worst, hope for the best". You can't guarantee your tacticals won't get into assault, so having that fist there can make the difference, and many opponents will think twice before engaging the lowly tactical when the sarge has an overgrown hand.

 

Now, to the original post (seems this topic grew into a powerfist discussion again), if you're using your tacticals as range support for your assault squads, you might not need a powerfist, or power weapon, however I hardly see the point in using a storm bolter. So at 24" without moving, you get 1 extra shot, at 12" rapid fire, you get...no extra shots, and if you're attempting to assault by firing pistols(which doesn't seem right with your tactics) you get 1 extra shot and if you move, you get 2 extra shots...I don't see the benefit.

 

Combi-meltas and combi-plasmas I would only use as a back up to augment your special weapon (a melta or plasma gun) because, if you REALLY need something dead, 2 of the same gun firing is better than one. I dislike using combi's like that though as it's only a one shot deal, thus why I prefer flamers that don't rely on BS and since you can choose when to use it, it's never wasted, unless you don't use it, which isn't that big of a deal anyways as it was only 10 points. I would just stick with a bolter if you're going for cheap fire support squads though. It's free, and your sarge matches up to the rest of your squad.

[Giga]

I usually equip my forward element tac sergeants with a powerfist and a combiflamer. Allows them to add some real nice rapid-fire punch to the unit, while also drastically improving the close-combat ability of the squad. I find the powerfist is invaluable, since it goes a long way toward discouraging the enemy from using their independent characters on my tac squads (real nice if you play a lot against MEQ). This is especially great if you've got nullzone running.

 

Power swords on the other hand aren't worth it on tac squads. They're only really worth it against things like eldar, sisters, and tau. Against GEQ you don't really need power weapons as their armor save sucks anyway, and against MEQ it isn't worth it because it usually hits and wounds on 4+, meaning only every 4th swing is actually going to score a wound.

[Captain Denaro]

I think I'll have to do a bit of reorganising/remodelling. My new line up will be;

 

Tac squad 3 - PF, Plasma cannon, flamer

Tac squad 4 - combi-plasma, ML, melta gun

Tac squad 5 - storm bolter, Las cannon, plasma gun

Tac squad 6 - PF, Heavy bolter, flamer

Tac squad 7 - PW, combi-melta, ML, flamer

 

I agree that a storm bolter is over priced for what it offers a tactical squad, but for me it's the epitome of a sgt's equipment so it stays. I don't have any bitz left or I'd change the combi-plasma to a combi-flamer. Thanks for all your help chaps.

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

I give my Tacs MM+Plasma, making it extremely deadly at the 24" range, so that no shooting power is lost when zipping about in that Rhino. Since there's so much close range firepower, if I really get charged by a Dreadnought and/or an MC then that's really my own problem (or I haven't made my daily sacrifices to the Dice Gods)

 

Anyway, I don't model my Sarges with fists, my Assault and Sternguard Squads get them, their purpose is to bust tanks.

[DerekLee688]

I don't field many tac squads, so I make them as nasty as possible. In 1500pts. and below I only run two troop choices, one is tooled for rapid fire in a rhino for objective grabbing and to assist the other unit of ten in the godhammer land raider that assults with fist and librarian. The rapid fire squad gets 25pts worth of plasma (PG/combi-P) and the assault squad gets 25pts worth of face smashing fist.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I remember a 9 page thread about power fists a while ago...

 

Anyway, I'm no tournament player, but I am sure anybody playing against space marines would expect to see tactical squads with powerfists and would plan accordingly. Keep in mind your opponent already knows he's going to have to make difficult choices whether to charge your tacs or not so the intimidation factor is already pretty much gone in the eyes of a seasoned veteran. Regardless, I think pingo is correct. Tactical squads can perform well any way you use them so long as the rest of your army is designed to support or be supported by them.

 

I personally like the powerfist because it has performed well for me so far. I usually play against my friend's wolves and he chuckles when I charge him with my tactical squad... only to see them hold their own in cc. With the greatest respect to the wolves, I bash their faces in. Not the smartest idea, maybe, but it has always worked for me. I would like to try the combat tactics then rapid fire method. Can someone explain to me how exactly it works in more detail?

[Koremu]

I would like to try the combat tactics then rapid fire method. Can someone explain to me how exactly it works in more detail?

Lose the Combat (in their turn), elect to fail the Morale test, win the Init roll-off, withdraw (ideally far enough to be more than 6" from the enemy after they consolidate), and then Rapid Fire.

[Grey Mage]

If your opponent wants to get into CC with your tactical squads its going to happen. Maybe not this turn or the next, but it will.

 

The Seargent is the only one who has a clue about what to do when the orks finally hit your lines- so it makes sense to give him an advantage in doing it when it happens.

[Velkairiwyth]

This whole thread has me wanting to try a marine horde army... Hehe.

 

I have enough troops to field 5 tactical squads, but I rarely take more than 2 5-man squads to make place for lots and LOTS of armour. (typically a 1500 point lists nowadays has 2 predators, 2 dreads, 2 speeders, 3 razorbacks (hq/vets) and maybe a 3rd pred or vindicator... I usually outarmour all the guard players I see fighting.)

 

This thread has at least helped me think about how to gear for use ^.^

[Zynk Kaladin]

Lose the Combat (in their turn), elect to fail the Morale test, win the Init roll-off, withdraw (ideally far enough to be more than 6" from the enemy after they consolidate), and then Rapid Fire.

 

I may be totally inexperienced with it, but through my whelp's eyes I can see that this is pretty complicated and lots could go wrong. I get the nagging sensation that if I try this on my wolf buddy, he'll run me through and laugh heartily ;) At least with the pf I can give the Sons of Russ high fives of death.

 

good stuff

[TyrionTheImp]

Lose the Combat (in their turn), elect to fail the Morale test, win the Init roll-off, withdraw (ideally far enough to be more than 6" from the enemy after they consolidate), and then Rapid Fire.

 

What if you fail the init roll-off? What if you don't get far enough away? You're counting on two things which won't happen all the time. First, you have to hope you win the init roll-off, chances are they'll have I3-5, meaning it really does come down to the roll. Then you have to hope you get far enough away, if you don't you're S-O-L. Both of these are dependent on rolls that are not necessarily in your favor.

 

Who is to say you'll win combat with a powerfist anyways? You might lose regardless, but you'll kill more than without, and you can fail your morale check regardless of its modifier (assuming you maintain combat tactics), so you really lose nothing in that tactic by taking a powerfist anyways.