Tactical squad sergeants

[Koremu]

Don't complain at me about how difficult it is. I was just explaining how it was supposed to work for the poster who asked!

 

I'm all too well aware of how unreliable it is!

 

I may be totally inexperienced with it, but through my whelp's eyes I can see that this is pretty complicated and lots could go wrong. I get the nagging sensation that if I try this on my wolf buddy, he'll run me through and laugh heartily :lol: At least with the pf I can give the Sons of Russ high fives of death.

 

good stuff

I take the Power Fist to ensure I don't lose too heavily on the turn I charge things. It's terrible when you accidentally withdraw in your own turn and just get re-assaulted.

 

The one thing this game should take from LotR is the turn sequence (altho properly that was in turn taken from blast-marker epic IIRC).

[ShinyRhino]

I tend to skip the powerfist on my tactical sergeants, instead giving one to a biker sergeant, and one to an assault squad sergeant.

I only run two tac squads, in most lists. One gets a sergeant with a combimelta and meltabombs, and the other gets a power axe and meltabombs. I find the meltabombs to be far more of a deterrent than a powerfist. The S8+2d6 is scarier to vehicles than a couple S8 hits. But,t hat's my local meta. We don't see very many monsters on the table.

I like the faster-moving powerfists on one of my biker squads, and my assault squad. The 12" moves and 6" assaults really allow me to react and apply the powerfist where it's needed. A 6" move really only allows you to accept a charge with a tac squad, not apply one, unless your opponent messed something up.

[Xeonic]

I by far prefer to have powerfists on my sergeants... if I can do so without compromising my list composition. Forward aggressively kitted squad tac sergeants get them every time, as they're the most likely to get in combat. The fist can allow the squad to deal with walkers/MCs in CC(or at least put wounds on them before you run away), and perhaps most importantly allows you to ID T4 ICs. This one is important, as most players field T4 or less non eternal warrior ICs. The strength of the tac squad sergeant is in CC, and a fist doesn't hurt his ranged capability at all if taken with a bolter or combi. In my opinion, it's an expensive upgrade that doesn't need to be taken every time(though if I was playng a stubborn army then always. :) ) but it is one of the few upgrades that completely change the squad's dynamics.

 

Combat tactics+ATSKNF is good, if a bit of a gamble, but it only applies if you're using a vanilla HQ(I do often, so no problem), and already losing combat. I prefer to think of it as a free bonus for using non chapter tactics special characters rather than a crutch to be relied on.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Lose the Combat (in their turn), elect to fail the Morale test, win the Init roll-off, withdraw (ideally far enough to be more than 6" from the enemy after they consolidate), and then Rapid Fire.

 

I may be totally inexperienced with it, but through my whelp's eyes I can see that this is pretty complicated and lots could go wrong. I get the nagging sensation that if I try this on my wolf buddy, he'll run me through and laugh heartily :) At least with the pf I can give the Sons of Russ high fives of death.

 

good stuff

 

not realy, the bigest risk is the init test, but its not much of a risk, a handfull of no retreat saves are the worse case scenerio. If you have the option you should almost always try and withdraw in their turn to free them up to shooting from your and other units, and then you can charge again if you realy feal like it.

[TyrionTheImp]

I tend to skip the powerfist on my tactical sergeants, instead giving one to a biker sergeant, and one to an assault squad sergeant.

I only run two tac squads, in most lists. One gets a sergeant with a combimelta and meltabombs, and the other gets a power axe and meltabombs. I find the meltabombs to be far more of a deterrent than a powerfist. The S8+2d6 is scarier to vehicles than a couple S8 hits. But,t hat's my local meta. We don't see very many monsters on the table.

\

 

Understandable that you take fists where there are no monsters, but what about Dreadnoughts? Grenades can only hit them on 6's, and you only get one Grenade attack per turn. Melta bombs are best against vehicles that you can auto-hit (Stunned or previously immobilized usually), but against most things with weak rear armor a powerfist will do better.

 

I suppose if the local meta game doesn't use dreads and monsters, meltas are a much cheaper vehicle destroyers, but the powerfist just adds so much.

 

As for adding them to Biker squads, I think they're perhaps a bit too few in number for those to work. It's I1 and if you get into CC with assault specialists, you might not have a sarge left to hit. If it works for you though it works for you.

[Wildfire]

I almost always take at least a power weapon on tac sgts, and that only if I'm trying to squeeze an extra few points out (otherwise it's a fist). I find all too often that late in the game I am charging an opposing squad on an objective with anything I have left, including my tacs. For that reason alone, the power weapon/fist is worth it to me.

 

I will say that it's not entirely necessary, depending on the composition of the rest of your list. If you have a lot of other squads capable of harming high T/AV targets in CC, you may not need a power fist on every tac squad.

 

One thing I would never do is put a storm bolter on a sgt. Not even if it cost a single point. If I move, I'm either in rapid-fire range or I'm running, so it never helps there. If I'm standing still, I don't think a single extra bolter shot is worth paying for. And half the time I'll be using either a powerfist and combi-weapon or a power sword anyways.

[mowglie]

The problem with the logic behind "never" taking a fist is that while you don't want your tacsquads in combat, your opponent usually does want your tacsquads in combat. Assuming you're a much better player than your opponent - so much better that you always get your way when moving around the table - isn't a good approach to list building.

 

Instead, accept that your opponent can basically assault any forward-moving squad at his leisure, and doesn't have to go terribly out of his way to assault your backline.

 

A power sword is not worth it as it only incrementally increases the effectiveness of the tacsquad in an area it is not particularly effective in before or after the upgrade.

 

A power fist on the other hand is transformative. First of all, your opponent can no longer assault you with impunity - particularly with low model-count assault specialists. In addition you gain several proactive abilities, including the ability to solidly answer AV10-rear vehicles, walkers, and to instantly-kill T4 characters.

 

In an all-comers list, a tactical squad is called upon to fulfil many different roles. You cannot always anticipate what your tacsquad will need to do when you build your list. The power fist is about flexibility, giving the squad capabilities that it didn't have before so that it is better equipped to fulfil the role in which it is needed.

 

With that in mind, I generally run two tacsquads, one with (forward objective-taker) and one without (rearguard). I broadly agree with the sentiment that if the tacsquad is supported by another squad with a fist (particularly an agile one like a jp assault marine squad) then the need is lessened. I think, though, that on balance I'd prefer to run e.g. bikes without a fist and support them with the fist in the tacsquad (due to cheaper ablative wounds).

[Jackelope King]

The problem with the logic behind "never" taking a fist is that while you don't want your tacsquads in combat, your opponent usually does want your tacsquads in combat. Assuming you're a much better player than your opponent - so much better that you always get your way when moving around the table - isn't a good approach to list building.

 

Instead, accept that your opponent can basically assault any forward-moving squad at his leisure, and doesn't have to go terribly out of his way to assault your backline.

This is only true when your opponent is capable of delivering a close-combat threat to your Tactical Squad which is as mobile as your Tactical Squad. And Walkers and Monstrous Creatures are all slow (with the exception of Librarian Dreadnoughts with Wings of Sanguinius, Hive Tyrants with wings, Chaos Daemon Princes with wings, and I think a few of the Greater Daemons). If you are mech'd up, you dictate where and when these threats will be able to engage your Tactical Squad.

 

As for other close-combat specialists, these are more likely to be a threat that can catch your Tactical Squad, as these can more than likely be transported somewhat effectively. The question here, of course, is whether or not they can open up your Rhino or Razorback.

 

Either way, a transport provides quite a bit more in terms of protecting against close-combat threats than a power fist does for armies with Combat Tactics. If you haven't mech'd up yet, what are you waiting for?

 

(Note that this doesn't mean you're immune to being assaulted or your enemy's strategy, but it is great risk-mitigation. My Tactical Squads get assaulted. They get hurt bad, and they die. I lose games. But I win games too, and I'm comfortable enough with the math and my experience to say that Power Fists would be a Hail Mary pass, not a reliable increase to a squad's threat.)

 

A power fist on the other hand is transformative. First of all, your opponent can no longer assault you with impunity - particularly with low model-count assault specialists. In addition you gain several proactive abilities, including the ability to solidly answer AV10-rear vehicles, walkers, and to instantly-kill T4 characters.

Fists certainly do allow new options, but run the numbers and you'll see quite clearly that a squad with two melta shots per turn is more capable than a squad with a Power Fist Sergeant at killing off Walkers (a 46% chance of killing it in a single round vs. a 40% chance if you're relying on the power fist). Against MCs, Power Fists are indeed more reliable at wounding, but not by much (91-92% chance of dealing a wound for the fist vs. 88-89% chance for the twin-melta squad). Shooting is superior against most infantry-type close-combat specialists with shooting vs. close-combat (essentially double the number of attacks when they shoots vs. when they swing their fists, and they won't let people with poor armor saves take them at all). Why? A fist only gives you an average of a little less than 1.5 wounds per turn against enemy models of toughness 6 or less. That's it. That's all it's going to add. These wounds are quite reliable against anyone without an invulnerable save, of course, and that must be considered (a huge plus for the Power Fist).

 

As for the reliability of Combat Tactics, against most threats, Marines have a slight edge, so your odds of successfully escaping from Close Combat and getting far enough out of range to regroup freely and rapid fire are roughly 50/50. Not a sure thing, but when you consider that not only will this Tactical Squad be able to shoot, but so too will any other unit within range. Codex: Space Marines is more shooty than assaulty, so this is a good thing, so considering the usual penalty for failing a Combat Tactics attempt are another one or two No Retreat! saves at 3+, it's usually worth the attempt in the larger context of the army.

 

In an all-comers list, a tactical squad is called upon to fulfil many different roles. You cannot always anticipate what your tacsquad will need to do when you build your list. The power fist is about flexibility, giving the squad capabilities that it didn't have before so that it is better equipped to fulfil the role in which it is needed.

In an all-comers list, if you're relying on a Tactical Squad for assault prowess, you're down to the aforementioned Hail Mary pass (wikipedia link included for the international folks out there not familiar with American Football terminology). Paying a not-insignificant amount of points to have this Hail Mary pass is not optimal list-building (I'd rather spend those 25 points on something that will prove a threat starting on turn 1 and continue to be a threat until it's destroyed). There are almost always better options for those points.

 

A solid, non-rock all-comers list must devote itself to providing the maximum number of complimentary threats. A power fist does not significantly increase the threat provided by a Tactical Squad enough to justify its very high cost (see my post on the last page for a list of things you could spend the points on which do provide additional threats or significantly increase the threat provided by an existing unit). You win games by shoving as many threats down your opponent's throat as possible. A power fist does not provide enough punch (pardon the pun) for your buck.

 

(Again, this must all be re-evaluated when you give up Combat Tactics.)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Every single Tac Squad Sgt. in my army now comes with a power fist. Especially in objective games, you have to realize that eventually, your Tac Squads are going to get into combat -- whether they're charging an enemy on an objective or being charged by the enemy because they're on an objective. I know entirely too many people who swear by the idea that the game is won and lost in the assault phase, and a 4+ to hit 2+ to wound with no save makes more sense to me than a 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound with or without saves.

[mowglie]

@Jackelope King: I think broadly we agree, but I'm just going to call out some specific points.

 

This is only true when your opponent is capable of delivering a close-combat threat to your Tactical Squad which is as mobile as your Tactical Squad.

 

Assuming you want to rapidfire, your opponent is capable of delivering a close-combat threat. If your tacsquad has a narrower role e.g. sitting on your baseline providing long-range support then obviously it doesn't want a Power Fist.

 

but run the numbers and you'll see quite clearly that a squad with two melta shots per turn is more capable than a squad with a Power Fist Sergeant

 

If you can draw line of sight to a target in the open - that's two assumptions you cannot necessarily make. That also relies on you using both your special weapon slots on melta. A lot of the posters on this board consider 2x Flamer to be superior in the metagame.

 

A fist only gives you an average of a little less than 1.5 wounds per turn against enemy models of toughness 6 or less. That's it.

 

And as I mentioned, the fist's primary targets in assault vs infantry are T4 ICs (who are ID'd by those 1.5 wounds), or low-model count units - especially multi-wound ones. Against the same T6 (I assume WS4, 3+ save) models, the rest of the squad is causing 0.25 wounds.

 

0.25 wounds vs 1.5 ID-causing wounds? That's quite a large improvement, no?

 

As for the reliability of Combat Tactics, against most threats, Marines have a slight edge, so your odds of successfully escaping from Close Combat and getting far enough out of range to regroup freely and rapid fire are roughly 50/50.

 

Your odds of successfully escaping combat vs I4 are 58%.

 

For the sake of argument, let's say your odds of getting far enough away to regroup are also 58% (more than 6", in reality you need more than this to cover your opponent regrouping, or any irregularities in the shape of combat)

 

That means your chance of successfully escaping from combat and getting far enough out of range to regroup freely are just over one third in the best-case scenario. I don't call that reliable.

 

In an all-comers list, if you're relying on a Tactical Squad for assault prowess....

 

I think you're confusing the specific role of a hidden power fist with all-around assault specialism.

 

I would turn that around and say that if you're ignoring the significant assault prowess of a tactical squad simply on the basis that it isn't an assault unit, you're wasting potential. 10x MEQ beats any sub-MEQ shooty line squad in the game, and keeps your squad safe from return fire. Just because we're more shooty than assaulty doesn't mean we never want to be in assault!

 

All sorts of targets are easier to deal with in assault. Particularly anyone who outshoots you (Tau, Imperial Guard, arguably Necrons), or any IC.

[Wildfire]

What tactical squad has the ability to take two meltaguns?

 

My advice to the OP is the same with any other list-making decision: play around a bit and see which you like best. I make my decisions based on my play style and my experience. My experience leads me to use power fists in my tac squads. Your mileage may vary.

[mowglie]

Meltagun + combi-melta

 

(or Flamer + combi-flamer, which a lot of people use)

[ShinyRhino]

I discovered another reason I hesitate to use powerfists in my tac squads last night...two base attacks at WS4. I was whiffing all night long with these damned things. Hitting on 4s against most things just stinks when you only have two dice to roll.

[Hellios]

I discovered another reason I hesitate to use powerfists in my tac squads last night...two base attacks at WS4. I was whiffing all night long with these damned things. Hitting on 4s against most things just stinks when you only have two dice to roll.

 

Well I might roll 6's all the time so on needing 4's to hit I'm all good... and also a melta-gun needs 3+ to hit... a single melta-gun gets 1 shot per game turn... if I'm in combat I could be getting 4+ attacks per game turn if the combat carries on and if a dread has got within 12 inches of you (or you have gone within 12 of the dread for some reason) I'll admit blowing it up at range means you are likely to receive less damage but 2 power fist attacks (I assume you have been charged) are more likely to make 1 hit than a single melta-gun shot although if you hit and successfully penetrate the walker (which only have an improved chance over a fist if you are within 6) you a more likely to do serious damage due to being AP1.

[Voltaire]

Are we still talking about how to arm a seargent or is this devolving into another pro/con fist arguement?

[Xeonic]

The reason these threads devolve into argument over fists is simple, because the options are limited.

Combis are widely regarded to be nice(I agree with this) but they're a bit expensive for what they do IMO. Meltabombs are great for the cost but more or less redundant if you take a fist anyways. There is only one situation where a PW does better than a fist, and that's loads of single wound, low toughness enemies where the +1 attack makes up for the lack of instant deathing face crunching fistypower. In addition taking a PW and meltabomb instead of just taking a fist puts you only a fistful of points away from actually buying a fist.

 

Tac sarge equip for me thus logically boils down to "do you need a CC upgrade on this squad Y/N?" If the answer is yes, then the squad probably should get a fist.

However in the same respect, fists are no longer as essential as they once were, being both 25% less effective(due to losing offhand attack), and 50% more expensive(since the loss of 1W price breaks from the armory). In addition a squad with combat tactics can flee battle and open fire the turn after autoregrouping, fist or not. Powerfists are still however a very powerful and viable tool, just not one every single tactical squad needs.

 

This is my opinion(pretty much already stated above too), but fists are a point of contention among Space Marine players and I believe this stems strictly from belief in what role(s) the tactical squad should fulfill, or should be set up to be able to fulfill. The argument is still not moving forwards though and it has literally been beaten to death(with a powerfist if that gives a nice mental image). :tu:

[Koremu]

This is my opinion(pretty much already stated above too), but fists are a point of contention among Space Marine players and I believe this stems strictly from belief in what role(s) the tactical squad should fulfill, or should be set up to be able to fulfill. The argument is still not moving forwards though and it has literally been beaten to death(with a powerfist if that gives a nice mental image). :unsure:

I'm of the opinion that Tactical Squads should be equipped like a swiss army knife - they need a tool for every job.

 

Fists are incredible because they are so versatile.

 

For reference, Sergeants I regularly use are;

 

Straight Power Fist

Power Fist + Plasma Pistol (usually on an Assault Squad Sergeant)

Power Fist + Combi-Melta (often with a Meltagun Squad... drive by kills on Land Raiders)

Plasma Pistol (usually with a Plasma Gun Squad)

Plasma Pistol + Power weapon

[DarkGuard]

I used to be a big fan of power fists, then found myself hating them as I rolled only one hit and then promptly rolled a 1. However, since I've been running power swords I've decided it's best to go for either the fist or standard Sergeant. Still not decided yet but I think the fist might be back. The reason why? If it hits, it'd killing something, and it can threaten anything in combat, isn't that enough if you have the points to spend?

[BladeEncarmine]

Generally, I equip my Tactical Sergeants with Powerfists for a few reasons.

 

As a player who like having versatile squads (if sometimes inefficient squads), the powerfist allows me to engage almost any target in assault and have a chance of at least hurting it before all my tacs die howling and shedding copious amounts of blood.

 

As a player who generally uses tactical marines as close fire support units, my tactical marines generally find themselves fighting in assault more often than I'd like, so it's nice to ocassionally smash that one stupid grot really, REALLY hard :D .

 

As a player who's local metagame generally involves large numbers of Nobz, Tyranid Warriors and Raveners, I like being able to cause serious damage to units of multiwound creatures that like to eat marines in combat.

 

And finally, as a Blood Angels player... sometimes the stupid morons won't run when they get thirsty, so I need them to kill those damned walkers when they charge me :D .

 

Power Weapons usually go to my Furious Charging Assault Squads ;) .

[Gothical]

Having experimented a little, I found Fists to be too overcosted for my Tactical Marine units (my Tacticals are ususally supported by a close-combat unit, and I am a rare player that fields Vanguard - who usually drop in on-target often enough to be viable to help out). Yet I found that Power Weapons just didn't get the job done - although I still do like them.

 

Looking at what my Salamanders (non-Vulkan) end up doing on the battlefield, I decided to opt for Combi-Weapons to complement the special weapon in the squad (so Flamer + Combi-Flamer in an anti-infantry squad, with a back-up Multi-Melta to ward off tanks). This worked OK.

 

But the other night I had a new thought: the humble Plasma Pistol.

 

It leaves the Sergeant with a lot of attacks to take on horde-like foes (where a PF is really unecessary) backing up the Flamer; an AP2 shot that can wound any Infantry with ease and even stick it to the Monsters, backing up the Multi-Melta in this role. It's not as good against Vehicles or Walkers (that's where the MM shines once again), but since I still retain Combat Tactics, I can fall back and give the enemy another shot.

 

It just seems like a nice balance between all the options: a high-strength, save-denying attack (albeit at range) yet still with weight of attacks/initiative to be able to handle the numerous not-as-tough-as-Marines troops abound out there.

 

As for the main topic at hand, all Sergeants should be equipped with the Squad's role in mind - either complementing the Special/Heavy weapon, or filling in a gap. So there is no "right" way to equip a Sergeant in my opinion.

[Hellios]

But the other night I had a new thought: the humble Plasma Pistol.

 

It leaves the Sergeant with a lot of attacks to take on horde-like foes (where a PF is really unecessary) backing up the Flamer; an AP2 shot that can wound any Infantry with ease and even stick it to the Monsters, backing up the Multi-Melta in this role. It's not as good against Vehicles or Walkers (that's where the MM shines once again), but since I still retain Combat Tactics, I can fall back and give the enemy another shot.

 

It just seems like a nice balance between all the options: a high-strength, save-denying attack (albeit at range) yet still with weight of attacks/initiative to be able to handle the numerous not-as-tough-as-Marines troops abound out there.

 

In 4th edition when you could rapid fire pistols I used to take 3 plasma pistols in a unit of khorne berzerkers and when say playing nids I would just stand and wait... gun down the gribble wait for the MCs to get within 12 of my berzerkers and I often found that would be enough to kill a Carnifex and even if it didn't die and charged me I would probably kill it with chainsaws before it got to attack and if it survived that my champion with a fist would be bound to kill it. At 15pts (it is 1 right?) and only 1 shot (you may well get charged after that shot) I find that a power weapon will generally be more effective (be it Terminator or ork) over the length of the game with 1 shot only being helpful against walkers and MCs if you are lucky.

[Koremu]

I use Plasma Pistol + Power Sword + Plasma Gun + Multi-Melta a lot. The Squad once solo killed a Carnifex (old codex), with one round of shooting and a lucky Power Sword wound when charged.

[Gothical]

In 4th edition when you could rapid fire pistols I used to take 3 plasma pistols in a unit of khorne berzerkers and when say playing nids I would just stand and wait... gun down the gribble wait for the MCs to get within 12 of my berzerkers and I often found that would be enough to kill a Carnifex and even if it didn't die and charged me I would probably kill it with chainsaws before it got to attack and if it survived that my champion with a fist would be bound to kill it. At 15pts (it is 1 right?) and only 1 shot (you may well get charged after that shot) I find that a power weapon will generally be more effective (be it Terminator or ork) over the length of the game with 1 shot only being helpful against walkers and MCs if you are lucky.

 

Since I play Mech I've usually pushed up a fair way in the first turn - that usually gives me a shot before combat starts, then if I've lost I can fall back - if not there's a chance I've swept the enemy and can get a shot at another unit. Either way, 3 shots-per-game isn't unusual from the pistol.

 

The Power Weapon doesn't help against Monstrous Creatures as it's only Str4 - you have to be really lucky for it to work out (although you get more attacks, it is difficult to hit and wound). The Pistol is a fairly reliable 1 wound, and falling back from combat allows it to combine with the Multi-Melta for another fairly good chance at 2 wounds.

 

Also running 2 squads side-by-side helps take down the bigger stuff - that and those targets tend to be dealt with by supporting elements (Vanguard, Terminators, Dreadnoughts or Command Squad) armed with heavy-duty combat weaponry.

 

If it was a foot-squad then I don't think the pistol is worth it, as then even 1 shot is not guaranteed, and the Fist probably works out as being more effective - however the additional cost takes away the option of getting a powerful long-ranged gun to use on similar targets (either in the squad or elsewhere in the army).

 

Ideally I'd add a Power Weapon as well, but that jacks up the points-cost in terms of the overall army, and is really bad if you Overheat.

[spartan249]

In 4th edition when you could rapid fire pistols

 

4th edition never allowed you to double tap pistols. Pistols were never rapid fire weapons... that's why they are designated pistol, not rapid fire. Whatever you were doing then with pistols was wrong.

 

Back when I was using Tactical Squads, I outfitted them with a melta-gun and a missile launcher with an attached rhino. I never really found myself in need of a power fist as, in assault, I was either completely outmatched and a power-fist would have been a waste of 25 points, or I was so much better than my target that a power fist would have been overkill.

 

Nowadays, I use scout squads as I find them a much better deal and more versatile than a tactical squad.

[Meatman]

I think the Powerfist and a combi-flamer are the best upgrades you can give a sarge.

 

 

This.

 

 

I've recently started using tactical marines again after realizing that just because they are not particularly effective against MEQs doesn't mean they are useless. I played a game a few weeks ago against Eldar, my drop podded tact squad with powerfist, combi-flamer, flamer and missile launcher dropped down, dual flamered and killed a large guardian squad. They then got bladestormed, and assaulted by a dire avenger squad before winning the combat by 2 wounds (both caused by the fist) and catching them in a sweeping advance.

 

This whole time only taking 4 casualties. That 3+ save is invaluable against the Xenos, and AP5 weapons are more then sufficient for them too. As such, I've been capitalizing on the tactical marine's strengths: close range fire support. They are, like sternguard, most effective in the rapid fire range. And as I like aggressive lists where I have Shrike, and take pods to get in the enemy deployment zone quickly, my tactical squads want to do one of 2 things: be there to weaken or kill targets before the scouts or assault marines finish them, or defend objectives.

 

And as they are going to be in rapid fire range most of the time, or coming down in pods, it is inevitable they will get charged. By taking Shrike I've lost combat tactics, so I have the fist to make sure the squad leaves a mark before they go down.

 

Most of my lists now include 2 tactical squads, both have powerfist, combi-flamers, flamers and a missile launcher, but one has a pod, one has a rhino. Pod comes down first turn to weaken or kill targets, while Shrike and his infiltrating friends go to town. The rhino either sits back on an objective and hits stuff with krak or frag missiles, or rolls forward to support my units.

 

Each squad costs 240 points including pod or rhino and they are very much worth it.