The Grim

[Bloodworthy]

I figured I would share something I noticed the other day. Astorath is too tall. You cannot hide him/his squad behind a rhino wall because his head sticks up. The model is terrifyingly gorgeous but the added height from his dynamic jumping pose makes his head pop up over rhino chasis. If you play with "true line of sight" rules fanatics then expect Astorath and his squad to eat every multi-laser, shuriken cannon, plasma gun (does anyone use these anymore), or heavey bolter shot that your opponent can throw that way.

 

I'm thinking I will make an "Astorath stand-in" out of sanguinary guard. I just don't know what head to use.

[Deimos]

Remember that 40k is model driven, not rules driven, i.e rules follow the models, not the otherway around. If it really bothers you, go ahead and make a stand-in, clearly identifyable as Astorath, ie big axe and a nice angry head :lol:

[Droofus]

I rarely say this, but I think in this case form trumps function. He just looks too cool for me to be worried about him sticking out over rhinos and whatnot.

 

What's the point of slicing and dicing the enemy if you can't look damn good in the process? B)

[Pcm979]

The only thing keeping him that tall are the scrolls. Chop 'em down to size and mount him on a regular flying base.

[wookielips]

i bought astorath and lemartes before i knew any better. both are cool, and both are too much of a liability on the table.

 

same with sanginor. new models will be constructed for all 3, which sucks, but is necessary.

 

edit: probably with SG + DC bitz.

[JamesI]

i bought astorath and lemartes before i knew any better. both are cool, and both are too much of a liability on the table.

 

same with sanginor. new models will be constructed for all 3, which sucks, but is necessary.

 

edit: probably with SG + DC bitz.

I built my own Sanguinor and Astorath, but I love the Lemartes figure. Sure, he's taller, but the normal Jump Chaplain I had been using for years was taller too so Lemartes is just the same.

[Gridlocked]

I'd build my own Dante (if Sang Guard get the sweet JP's whys he got a dodgy looking standard one and a tiny axe?!) but Astro and Sangy are awesome enough to have their own used. Placing them next to each other makes for great contrast in an army.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

honestly if some one wanted to be a dick, i'd lay the model down and say 'he landed as crouched behind the rhino for cover.' since the models can't change pose. same goes for if a model has his arm and pistol sticking out around a corner, i'd say full cover, since after all the soldier wouldn't really be standing there with his arm out the whole time.

[Priest33]

hrm was pretty sure that the model had to be showing at least 50% of its self to even be seen as per the BRB but maybe that's just a local thing here.

 

(aka one model 50% shown then you can target the squad, cover saves apply. One model with only an arm or a foot sticking out then you cant see them, sportsmanship counts around here as realistically who never moves and is a statue for their entire lives? Makes no sense.)

[Requiem of the Wolf]

hrm was pretty sure that the model had to be showing at least 50% of its self to even be seen as per the BRB but maybe that's just a local thing here.

 

(aka one model 50% shown then you can target the squad, cover saves apply. One model with only an arm or a foot sticking out then you cant see them, sportsmanship counts around here as realistically who never moves and is a statue for their entire lives? Makes no sense.)

Well RAW has it as if you can see any part of the actual body you can take a pot shot at them. But of course,if any part is obscured they get a 4+ cover save too. the 50% rule is based on whether a vehicle has cover. As far as personally goes,If a person has just a bit showing,as long as he has played in a reasonable manner this game and prior i would probably even upgrade the cover save to a 3+.

[ashen]

I love astorath, awesome model, does it really matter that he is a little higher than normal.

[Menos]

Requiem: I think he was referring to the fact that the unit was in cover behind the Rhino. Astorath should have gotten a cover save for that even if his head was standing shoulders over the Rhino as long as the unit he was attached to was more that 50% obscured to the fireer. Now if he's on his own (for whatever reason IC hunting maybe?) thats a whole other Chicken Enchilada.

[Puddle]

Requiem: I think he was referring to the fact that the unit was in cover behind the Rhino. Astorath should have gotten a cover save

 

No, he was saying because Astorath could be SEEN (and hence the unithe's joined to), it can be shot.. Obviously cover saves are given..

 

If Astorath WASNT that tall, he COULD NOT be seen, therefore the entire squad couldnt even be targeted in the first place.

[Sanguinarian]

This is bad sportsmanship at its worst. All Infantry sized models, irregardless of their ornamentations should be deemed capable of full cover behind a Rhino, height-wise at least. Obviously a 30-man DC would ooze out wider than a Rhino, thus would require a wall of vehicles. Spikes and bits and weapons and hair don't count as "I see you."

 

I'd say roll for it, if he wins the roll then Deep Strike Astorath & Death Companies and munch, munch, munch. :rolleyes:

[the jeske]

irregardless of their ornamentations should be deemed capable of full cover behind a Rhino

why ? and behind which rhino the old 2ed/ET one too ? so orks and nids have to play true los , but sm should get special rules[that break the general rule of true los , that was so ground breaking in 5th ed] ? I dont think so.

 

+ even if you covnert the model , your opponent can always ask you to put a GW legal unconverted model when checking LoS . so cheers to buying 2 astaroths.

[Menos]

+ even if you covnert the model , your opponent can always ask you to put a GW legal unconverted model when checking LoS . so cheers to buying 2 astaroths.

 

 

Is this a legal action during a Tournament (I ask cuz thats all "we" seem to give advise and care about right?...)? I am aware of the "modeling for advantage"rule , but what then happens with all those [now] famous Storm Raven conversion? Or how about a count-as bike army using all Chaos Horsemen models? Are you going to require me to buy both my Horse army AND bike models, assemble and paint both just so I can have fun or play at your venue?! Sorry if this is sounding a tad aggressive, I just find this a bit on the extreme end of the "modeling for advantage" scenario. I can see if he modeled Astorath to be kneeling in a praying pose (then again I still find no fault with this either).

[SamaNagol]

Remove the detritus around the base then.

[the jeske]

but what then happens with all those [now] famous Storm Raven conversion?

nothing . there is no GW legal model for it so you can try more or less anything . Of course if someone tries to use valks from epic as counts as for those, it wont fly in friendly games and as orgs can kick you out or DQ if they want from any tournament it wouldnt work . If it was different we would be back to 3ed to crawling wright lords and DPs .

 

Are you going to require me to buy both my Horse army AND bike models, assemble and paint both just so I can have fun or play at your venue?!

well chaos bikers are smaller then mounted models . so no I dont think I would ask for checking the LoS with an actual biker model , you on the other hand could.

 

I can see if he modeled Astorath to be kneeling in a praying pose (then again I still find no fault with this either).

each year we have a small tournament her where we play by THE RULES . But by real actual rules no national FAQs only the stuff that GW calls official [so only errata , because even FAQ are unofficial ] . So I can imagine many things crawling DP or back in the 4th ed when there was the "base not smaller then" my nids were runing around with long slim bases [nothing special only 18" long] so I could pivot them out of my deployment turn one to shot and then do a first turn charge.

I know this example is extrem , but we do it mostly to remember why FAQs and clear ruleings are important .

Want to model a kneeling grim . Go for it , I love to convert models too , but in the game there is something like a standard base size and official model size

[Tokunator]

You could just park him behind a Razorback's turret.... Or a Dreadnought.

[Midnightmare]

He is tall, but if you look at him sans streamers, hes actually quite small. Go figure!

[coteaz40001]

irregardless of their ornamentations should be deemed capable of full cover behind a Rhino

why ? and behind which rhino the old 2ed/ET one too ? so orks and nids have to play true los , but sm should get special rules[that break the general rule of true los , that was so ground breaking in 5th ed] ? I dont think so.

 

+ even if you covnert the model , your opponent can always ask you to put a GW legal unconverted model when checking LoS . so cheers to buying 2 astaroths.

 

It's opponents like this that make me happy that Rogue Trader tournaments have sportsmanship scores.

You might keep me from winning with that bull crap, but i promise that you would gets zeros from me and everyone in my gaming group.

[Bloodworthy]

I play in a really competitive area and have decided that before each game I will ask my opponent if he will ignore the fact that Astorath is too tall. If not then I will use an Astorath stand-in, my old jump pack chaplain. If he gets all butt-hurt about it then I wont play him. For tournaments Astorath will either sit in my case or on my shelf, probably shelf.

 

On that note GW really screwed the pooch when it came to true line of sight. How hard is it to have a level system for model size. It would speed the game up so much and would avoid so many arguements over weapon line of sight, shooter line of sight, 50% of vehicles.

[the jeske]

It's opponents like this that make me happy that Rogue Trader tournaments have sportsmanship scores.

You might keep me from winning with that bull crap, but i promise that you would gets zeros from me and everyone in my gaming group.

 

because of what , one guy plays by the rules [and it is not even some obscure ruling old 3ed-4th ed dex vs 5th rule book] and you give him 0 points for doing that , just because you think that your army should be special and be able to break the rules ? <_< this is why sportsman ship points dont work . a fair playing gamer has to live in fear that some butt hurt sunday gamer will drop his overall points , because he cant deal with the rules .

[Priest33]

True los is kinda dumb. if you have a model with a long weapon, say a lance, and you havr the unit behind cover but the lance is sticking out the side then your enemy can see them as per rules of true los. hence the reasion around here we say thay 50% of A model needs to be seen, ignoring weapons attachments such as trophy racks ext. If theres a problem after all that roll a dice 456 can be seen shoot with coversaves 123 model is hidden to bad.

[Morticon]

True los is kinda dumb. if you have a model with a long weapon, say a lance, and you havr the unit behind cover but the lance is sticking out the side then your enemy can see them as per rules of true los.

 

Not true matey. You must have LOS to the body. Weapons/banners dont count.