The Grim

[coteaz40001]

It's opponents like this that make me happy that Rogue Trader tournaments have sportsmanship scores.

You might keep me from winning with that bull crap, but i promise that you would gets zeros from me and everyone in my gaming group.

 

because of what , one guy plays by the rules [and it is not even some obscure ruling old 3ed-4th ed dex vs 5th rule book] and you give him 0 points for doing that , just because you think that your army should be special and be able to break the rules ? ;) this is why sportsman ship points dont work . a fair playing gamer has to live in fear that some butt hurt sunday gamer will drop his overall points , because he cant deal with the rules .

 

no. I say this because it is your attitude towards the opponent. Telling someone that their WYSIWYG conversion is not legal, because you don't like the way they posed it, that's the definition of poor sportsmanship.

[Venerable Jazzman]

Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing

model to any part of the body of at least one of the

models in the target unit (for 'body' we mean its head,

torso, legs and arms). Sometimes, all that may be

visible of a model is a weapon, an antenna, a banner

or some other ornament he is wearing or carrying

(including its wings and tail, even though they are

technically part of its body). In these cases, the model is

not visible. These rules are intended to ensure that

models don't get penalised for having impressive

standards, blades, guns, majestic wings, etc.

 

So on one hand we get a rule designed not penalize impressive models, and on the other we get an impressive model that penalizes itself by having its head higher than a Rhino. :lol:

[JamesI]

So on one hand we get a rule designed not penalize impressive models, and on the other we get an impressive model that penalizes itself by having its head higher than a Rhino. :RTBBB:

Could be worse. 6 months ago, every tank I owned was one of the old small ones, so even regular guys can be seen hiding behind them. I've since upgraded my tank collection to all new ones (except for one small Vindicator, but that means my vindicator can hide behind some razorbacks!)

[DV8]

This is bad sportsmanship at its worst. All Infantry sized models, irregardless of their ornamentations should be deemed capable of full cover behind a Rhino, height-wise at least. Obviously a 30-man DC would ooze out wider than a Rhino, thus would require a wall of vehicles. Spikes and bits and weapons and hair don't count as "I see you."

 

I'd say roll for it, if he wins the roll then Deep Strike Astorath & Death Companies and munch, munch, munch. ;)

 

1. "Irregardless", while it is "officially" a word, is bad form. The prefix "Ir-" and the suffix "-less" form a double negative that should by logic render it moot. That being said we are arguing over GW rules so this may be a no-fly zone for logic.

 

2. The issue isn't ornamentations on Astorath. The issue is that his head and arms stick out above the Rhino chassis. Last I checked, a person's head and arms qualify as part of his "body".

 

+ even if you covnert the model , your opponent can always ask you to put a GW legal unconverted model when checking LoS . so cheers to buying 2 astaroths.

 

You're thinking of Warmaster Challenge tournaments, where if your opponent asks, you must use the official Games Workshop model for Special Characters (that is, named characters) only. As always if you make it clear (both verbally and by physical means of the model itself) that the model represents a particular character, only a douche of an opponent would ever bring that into contest.

 

As to the topic at hand, that is unfortunately the price you pay for fielding an impressive model. If you want to use the bigger/taller Astorath (whether it's because of his scrolls or not), then you must also abide by the rules as they stand (that is true LoS). When all is said and done, in the end how often has it ever really been an issue? Battlefields are not perfectly level, and units do not shoot in a vacuum. There is so much other stuff (models and terrain) on the table that getting true perfect LoS is so difficult anyways, just have fun, and give your opponent the benefit of the doubt. Heck my Ragnar is a head taller than my Rhino because of his base, and I've had the Storm Bolter pintle block LoS once, denying my opponent the chance to shoot at him and the Grey Hunters he was attached to. Do I think it's logical or fair for either side? Doesn't matter.

 

It's a game, relax.

 

 

DV8

[Sanguinarian]

This is bad sportsmanship at its worst. All Infantry sized models, irregardless of their ornamentations should be deemed capable of full cover behind a Rhino, height-wise at least. Obviously a 30-man DC would ooze out wider than a Rhino, thus would require a wall of vehicles. Spikes and bits and weapons and hair don't count as "I see you."

 

I'd say roll for it, if he wins the roll then Deep Strike Astorath & Death Companies and munch, munch, munch. ;)

 

1. "Irregardless", while it is "officially" a word, is bad form. The prefix "Ir-" and the suffix "-less" form a double negative that should by logic render it moot. That being said we are arguing over GW rules so this may be a no-fly zone for logic.

 

2. The issue isn't ornamentations on Astorath. The issue is that his head and arms stick out above the Rhino chassis. Last I checked, a person's head and arms qualify as part of his "body".

 

+ even if you covnert the model , your opponent can always ask you to put a GW legal unconverted model when checking LoS . so cheers to buying 2 astaroths.

 

You're thinking of Warmaster Challenge tournaments, where if your opponent asks, you must use the official Games Workshop model for Special Characters (that is, named characters) only. As always if you make it clear (both verbally and by physical means of the model itself) that the model represents a particular character, only a douche of an opponent would ever bring that into contest.

 

As to the topic at hand, that is unfortunately the price you pay for fielding an impressive model. If you want to use the bigger/taller Astorath (whether it's because of his scrolls or not), then you must also abide by the rules as they stand (that is true LoS). When all is said and done, in the end how often has it ever really been an issue? Battlefields are not perfectly level, and units do not shoot in a vacuum. There is so much other stuff (models and terrain) on the table that getting true perfect LoS is so difficult anyways, just have fun, and give your opponent the benefit of the doubt. Heck my Ragnar is a head taller than my Rhino because of his base, and I've had the Storm Bolter pintle block LoS once, denying my opponent the chance to shoot at him and the Grey Hunters he was attached to. Do I think it's logical or fair for either side? Doesn't matter.

 

It's a game, relax. <<<<<<<<---------------------------AGREED!!!

 

 

DV8

 

ir·re·gard·less (ĭr'ĭ-gärd'lĭs)

adv. Nonstandard

Regardless.

 

[Probably blend of irrespective and regardless.]

Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

 

WOW, I didn't know this was a "formal" and "grammatically correct" forum. ;) In Chicago we say it how we think it, so instead of tip-toeing around 2 words...ahhh, never mind. ;) When did puppies learn how to read and write anyway? Don't they just eat the books? ;)

 

If your opponent :cuss about Astorath's height due to GW's lack of foresight in re: LOS, then Deep Strike him and 30 DC in behind enemy lines and tear some :cuss up!!! Now nobody has to worry about him being too tall. Buying 2 different figures is horsecrap!!! ;)

[DV8]

ir·re·gard·less (ĭr'ĭ-gärd'lĭs)

adv. Nonstandard

Regardless.

 

[Probably blend of irrespective and regardless.]

Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

 

WOW, I didn't know this was a "formal" and "grammatically correct" forum. ;) In Chicago we say it how we think it, so instead of tip-toeing around 2 words...ahhh, never mind. ;) When did puppies learn how to read and write anyway? Don't they just eat the books? B)

 

Now that's just hitting below the belt. What did our Legion ever do to yours, except be awesome at everything? :P Probably just jealous because we get to drink on the job...

 

And I never argued whether "irregardless" was a legitimate word - formal or informal - that you could or couldn't use. Even if it is used in non-standard casual conversation does not bypass the fact that the lexicogic break down of the word makes it a double negative and quite unnecessary as "regardless" fulfills the same function.

 

If your opponent :) about Astorath's height due to GW's lack of foresight in re: LOS, then Deep Strike him and 30 DC in behind enemy lines and tear some :cuss up!!! Now nobody has to worry about him being too tall. Buying 2 different figures is horsecrap!!! :D

 

Again it's not due to GW's lack of foresight. They made an impressive looking model. Tough cookies if you don't like that it presents a higher profile to the enemy. Getting riled up because your opponent follows the rules for true LoS is just bad manners on your part.\

 

EDIT: Bottom line is, the stock Astorath model places the body, unfortunately, taller than the average marine. If you use it, then you must abide by the rules of true LoS or houserule with your opponent to reach an acceptable compromise. If no compromise can be reached, then you have one of three options:

 

Use Astorath as is and accept that he can be picked out more easily

Convert Astorath to be shorter

Build your own Astorath

 

There are no such things as "true line of sight" fanatics since true line of sight is quite clear cut. If I can physically see the model, I have LoS.

 

 

DV8

[JamesI]

Lets not turn this thread into a debate over grammar or tournament sportsmanship issues.

[V Dubbed]

I say just hack the banners off that prop him up so high. He's a space marine, not a giant. He stands as tall as any of his other buddies, so if they get to hide behind a rhino, he should too. I think true LOS would be a functional rule if they stopped giving the models unique poses and just made them ALL in a standard pose. In this case there needs to be a little lee-way. I'd say to my opponent that he's a marine and if his buddies can hide, so will he. If they have a problem with it, I'll build my own Astorath to be the same height as a normal marine. Just because the model is a fantastic sculpt doesn't mean it should be penalized in a game.

[Droofus]

During a jump, I imagine an assault marine would have clear LOS to anywhere on the table. They might LAND behind the rhino, but for the majority of their turn they'd be as high as a valk.

 

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that while an assault marine is "man sized" and could therefore hide behind a rhino regardless of their model, they are also using a type of transportation that rockets them up into the air, so it's not really fair to use either example. It's just simpler to use the actual model.

 

Though the fact that someone would take the knife to such a beautiful model as Astorath just so he could hide behind a rhino make me very sad for the hobby.

[V Dubbed]

During a jump, I imagine an assault marine would have clear LOS to anywhere on the table. They might LAND behind the rhino, but for the majority of their turn they'd be as high as a valk

 

Then using that logic you should be able to shoot anything that ended its move behind cover so long as it was visible at some point during the move....

[Firedrake28]

It's opponents like this that make me happy that Rogue Trader tournaments have sportsmanship scores.

You might keep me from winning with that bull crap, but i promise that you would gets zeros from me and everyone in my gaming group.

 

because of what , one guy plays by the rules [and it is not even some obscure ruling old 3ed-4th ed dex vs 5th rule book] and you give him 0 points for doing that , just because you think that your army should be special and be able to break the rules ? :thanks:

 

No, because this individual insists on playing by the rules even when they don't make any damn sense.

 

If Astorath's size is a problem, just clip off the bottom of the model (meaning the rubble or whatever it is that he's standing on) and he should shrink pretty considerably. If anyone tries to give you crap for it, tell them to go stab themselves in the eye with a hot french fry.

[Droofus]

During a jump, I imagine an assault marine would have clear LOS to anywhere on the table. They might LAND behind the rhino, but for the majority of their turn they'd be as high as a valk

 

Then using that logic you should be able to shoot anything that ended its move behind cover so long as it was visible at some point during the move....

 

Did your read the second paragraph of my response? I said both the example of the sky-high assault marine and the crouching Astorath are irrelevant. The simplest solution is just to use the model as it stands for LOS, even if the pose isn't to someone's liking.

[spiros14]

Please, if the enemy wants a chance to shoot him, let him, he will just have to get past: to hit rolls and to wound rolls. id he gets past that, you have a cover save (basic 4+, 3+ if you negotiate a bit [i mean only his head is showing] 2+ with negotiating and go to ground) now, i don't have the codex on me, but if he gets past that, he has a good armor save, and probably an invun save. when he actually does wound you once after using 30 shots, you can tell him he has more than one wound.

Then you can have bloody revenge the following turn :D

[Tame]

you have a cover save (basic 4+, 3+ if you negotiate a bit [i mean only his head is showing] 2+ with negotiating and go to ground) now, i don't have the codex on me, but if he gets past that, he has a good armor save, and probably an invun save.

 

Well, for starters, correct me if I'm wrong, but you only get one save, the best one available. And more importantly, the point was, if he is visible, the unit he's in is visible as well. They get cover of course (the majority is out of sight AND Astorath himself is in cover), but still can be shot at, which can be a problem.

[spiros14]

you have a cover save (basic 4+, 3+ if you negotiate a bit [i mean only his head is showing] 2+ with negotiating and go to ground) now, i don't have the codex on me, but if he gets past that, he has a good armor save, and probably an invun save.

 

Well, for starters, correct me if I'm wrong, but you only get one save, the best one available. And more importantly, the point was, if he is visible, the unit he's in is visible as well. They get cover of course (the majority is out of sight AND Astorath himself is in cover), but still can be shot at, which can be a problem.

nope, the rulebook dosn't state that as far as i can see (if you can find it, let me know)

[JamesI]

you have a cover save (basic 4+, 3+ if you negotiate a bit [i mean only his head is showing] 2+ with negotiating and go to ground) now, i don't have the codex on me, but if he gets past that, he has a good armor save, and probably an invun save.

 

Well, for starters, correct me if I'm wrong, but you only get one save, the best one available. And more importantly, the point was, if he is visible, the unit he's in is visible as well. They get cover of course (the majority is out of sight AND Astorath himself is in cover), but still can be shot at, which can be a problem.

nope, the rulebook dosn't state that as far as i can see (if you can find it, let me know)

Captain spiros, unless I am misunderstanding your post, it seems you think you can take a cover save and an armor save and an invulnerable save per wound. Each wound you pick one save and that is all you get.

 

And if Astorath is joined to a unit, and all that can be seen is Astorath's head, the whole unit can be shot. Obviously they have cover, but I've had units of raptors die because my Chaos Sorceror on a disk is taller than the rhino he and his unit is hiding behind.

[spiros14]

fair enough,i won't argue against the saves (as i'm probably wrong, been playing WH too much) but whats stopping you "leaving the unit at the end of your turn, then regrouping at the start of the next"?

[Beef]

All these debates recently have me scared. I am unsure whetehr My new SW and Ba will ever see the light of a gaming table. Might have to just stick to friendly games against my brother who lives in another country the way things are going. We both equally suck at the rules so it should not be a problem.

 

I do agree that its unfair to have a model like astro penalised for his height due to his leaping pose and i would just replace him with a model of the same size like a normal SM just to measure LOS. But i play for fun.

[JamesI]

All these debates recently have me scared. I am unsure whetehr My new SW and Ba will ever see the light of a gaming table. Might have to just stick to friendly games against my brother who lives in another country the way things are going. We both equally suck at the rules so it should not be a problem.

 

I do agree that its unfair to have a model like astro penalised for his height due to his leaping pose and i would just replace him with a model of the same size like a normal SM just to measure LOS. But i play for fun.

agreed, in almost no situations will it matter. Most people will accept Astorath's tall pose and allow substituting a normal model for LOS purposes.

 

fair enough,i won't argue against the saves (as i'm probably wrong, been playing WH too much) but whats stopping you "leaving the unit at the end of your turn, then regrouping at the start of the next"?

You have to be outside 2 inches at the end of your movement phase to leave the unit. You can only join or leave in the movement phase. If you do that fine, but now Astorath is a failed invul save to a lascannon from being toast.

[Morticon]

All these debates recently have me scared. I am unsure whetehr My new SW and Ba will ever see the light of a gaming table. Might have to just stick to friendly games against my brother who lives in another country the way things are going.

 

 

Matey- dont stress it at all.

 

Ive played competitive 40k in 9 cities with 12 different groups on 4 continents and the intrawebs are by far and large the scariest place for issues like this.

 

Ive found that in real life players (generally) are a lot more amicable than we give credit to. Ive very, very rarely met people that are overly obtuse and down-right unpleasant and not understanding.

 

Dont let it phase you, and dont let it get your back up cause for the most part the vast majority of us are having a rckin, fun time :devil:

[Bloodworthy]

I did not mean to stir the proverbial "stink pot" with my original post. I was trying to throw out a warning so some one didnt go drop the $ for Astorath and then get upset when some one claims line-of-sight to him and he or his unit gets shot up. I have a work around, as I'm sure most senior players do, but not everyone does.

 

Regarding line-of-sight fanatics:

In a game I had a squad of 5 marines hiding behind the remains of a destroyed rhino on top of a hill. My opponent could draw line of sight under the rhino chasi and through the wheels/tread of the destroyed rhino to the foot of one of my marines. Well, because his Demolisher could draw line of sight (did I mention he was trying to shoot with a Demolisher?) he could take the shot, and he did. Hit 5 of 5 marines, wounded 5 of 5 marines, 3 of five marines failed thier cover save, and the remaining two failed thier Ld test and ran off the board and the objective they were baby sitting.

 

I know this is a bit extreme, but it happens more often than I care for. If I sound like I'm complaining, I'm not, just telling a story.

 

Astorath is a great model, one that I think you get your $ worth. He will just never see competitive play. That sucks, but I'm certainly not going to cry over it.

[Tangamarine]

I'll just use him for a dante conversion to add to my all deepstriking army, who needs to hide behind rhinos?

[sac_ld]

Seeing all these complaints about how the model should be converted so that it's head is not showing over a rhino makes me think how lucky you have only a hand full of models that are too bulky. I have Tyranids as my main army and let me tell you, it's hard as hell to make Genestealers not have arms poking out of SOMETHING and this providing something to shoot at. I mean I'd not stop my opponent from making their own model, but if it was only to gain the benefit of not showing over a rhino I'd be personally unimpressed. I would still play 'cause really I'm playing the game to have fun and play a game. Though I don't plan on making conversions of that nature cause really Assault marines should be like Tyranid Gargoyles, floating about the battlefield looking to get the enemy as quickly as possible.