Grey Mage Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Short term solutions are good sometimes... if you get them to break the habit and move on with their tactical learning youll have more interesting games in the end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2419687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Our local Jetbike Seer Council player likes it when people mech up. He uses his bikes to surround a given transport, and then throws a bajillion Witchblade hits at it. It more than likely dies, and if it doesn't explode, your whole unit is toast. Remember that the OP is a Space Wolf player. Things like Librarians and Thunderfire Cannons won't help him at all. Personally, I'd just lock up with it in melee as soon as I could. Swiftclaw Bikers can keep up with them. Skyclaws might also be able to run them down. At least one powerfist is required in any squad you plan to hit the Council with. You want them dying instantly to any failed save. Our local Eldar player also hides Eldrad in a transport someplace near the bikers. He also buys the Runes that make you roll all psychic tests on 3d6 (Runes of Warding?). He also likes to snipe individual models out of your squads with Mind War. It's annoying as hell. Bjorn might be a good buy against the Council. Use an assault cannon, for S6 autokills on failed saves. He's got armor 13, so they'll need 4+ to penetrate his armor, and are rolling against his WS, not a flat 2+ (right?). Once he gets locked in, he's taking down some bikes every turn, hopefully. Since the Farseer MUST base him as soon as possible, put all attacks on him until he drops. Bjorn is also Venerable, so you can force rerolls of any wrecks or explodes results. It's one enemy that Codex Marines have more tools to take down than Wolves do, oddly enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2419974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Short term solutions are good sometimes... if you get them to break the habit and move on with their tactical learning youll have more interesting games in the end. Good advice. Our local player is always looking for the next, big power unit. It's just how he plays. Once we figure out how to trounce or nullify the Seer Council, I'm sure he'll move on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2419978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bystrom Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Bjorn might be a good buy against the Council. Use an assault cannon, for S6 autokills on failed saves. He's got armor 13, so they'll need 4+ to penetrate his armor, and are rolling against his WS, not a flat 2+ (right?). Once he gets locked in, he's taking down some bikes every turn, hopefully. Since the Farseer MUST base him as soon as possible, put all attacks on him until he drops. Bjorn is also Venerable, so you can force rerolls of any wrecks or explodes results. Witchblades and singing spears work just the same as normal weapons against vehicles, it depends on the speed they've been moving when determining to-hit. They wound against infantry on a flat 2+ and have S9 against vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2420187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 What's Bjorn's WS? And is it equal or better than an Enhanced Warlock? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2420214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Black Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Just remeber that they cannot cast any psychic powers durring a turn in which they turbo boost their bikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2420247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Just remeber that they cannot cast any psychic powers durring a turn in which they turbo boost their bikes. Yeah, that's why the Flamestorm is good in that situation. No 3+ Cover or Armour, and no rerolls. And either of the carrying platforms can move 12" and Shoot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2420268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Just remeber that they cannot cast any psychic powers durring a turn in which they turbo boost their bikes. Yeah, that's why the Flamestorm is good in that situation. No 3+ Cover or Armour, and no rerolls. And either of the carrying platforms can move 12" and Shoot. The Flamestorm is great if you can get it into range. Given how far a turbo-boosted jetbike council moves, you are not very likely to get your redeemer into a good firing position unless the Eldar player messes up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2420465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Just remeber that they cannot cast any psychic powers durring a turn in which they turbo boost their bikes. Yeah, that's why the Flamestorm is good in that situation. No 3+ Cover or Armour, and no rerolls. And either of the carrying platforms can move 12" and Shoot. The Flamestorm is great if you can get it into range. Given how far a turbo-boosted jetbike council moves, you are not very likely to get your redeemer into a good firing position unless the Eldar player messes up. The Tank can move 12" and project flame another 8". The Seer Council can Assault 18". Usually they will be several inches closer. You should get to flame them if you are cunning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2420554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Be a dick, ally in some psycannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2420672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Be a dick, ally in some psycannons. Sadly, Eldar jetbikes give the unit a 3+ Armor Save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2420701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 What's Bjorn's WS? And is it equal or better than an Enhanced Warlock? Theyre WS5, 6 on the farseer- hes weaponskill 6 himself. Still... "wounding" on a 4+, with only a 5+ save in response... I just cant think of this as a good idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2421337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Black Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Sadly, Eldar jetbikes give the unit a 3+ Armor Save. Negative! It gives a 3+ cover save =). Heavy Flamers anyone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2421793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Sadly, Eldar jetbikes give the unit a 3+ Armor Save. Negative! It gives a 3+ cover save =). Heavy Flamers anyone? Eldar Jetbikes give a 3+ Armour Save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2421806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelope King Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Sadly, Eldar jetbikes give the unit a 3+ Armor Save. Negative! It gives a 3+ cover save =). Heavy Flamers anyone? Ummm... you're wrong. Eldar jetbikes give a 3+ armor save, as per Codex: Eldar pg 40. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2421808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Sadly, Eldar jetbikes give the unit a 3+ Armor Save. Negative! It gives a 3+ cover save =). Heavy Flamers anyone? The cover save is for turboboosting, hombre. That's what makes Jetlocks so damn annoying -- they can have their choice of a 3+ armor, 3+ cover, or 4+ invulnerable, and when Fortuned they get to reroll them. I'm an Eldar player on the side, and I don't like these guys because they require entirely too many points and too much attention from a second Farseer to make sure that they stay alive and viable, but I know lots of eldar players who live and die by them. My advice to fighting Jetlocks is simple: keep a psychic hood handy to cancel out Fortune, and swamp them in wounds. They'll fail saves eventually. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2422073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 I'm an Eldar player on the side, and I don't like these guys because they require entirely too many points and too much attention from a second Farseer to make sure that they stay alive and viable, but I know lots of eldar players who live and die by them. My advice to fighting Jetlocks is simple: keep a psychic hood handy to cancel out Fortune, and swamp them in wounds. They'll fail saves eventually. Just how killy are they? I mean, they are tough, but what damage would they do to a Marine army? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2422088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Depends on how they are equipped. Jetlock Councils come in two varieties; you'll only rarely see the two mixed because they fill different niches. Option 1. All Singing Spears. These guys are tank-hunters, pure and simple. They each get a single S9 shot hitting on 3+ at. . . 12" I think it is (I don't run Singing Spears, so I'm unsure.). Your average Council is a Farseer (who hits on a 2+) and 5-7 Warlocks, so that's at least 6 S9 shots pounding your armor. Land Raiders will die to that much firepower. They do have the option of charging the contents of a transport blown open by the thrown spears, but since they can't get a second attack with a spear, it's rare that they will do so. Normally, they'll just take their 6" Assault Phase move and skeedaddle away, especially if they just cracked a Raider full of Hammernators. Option 2. All Witchblades Here's where the hurt comes in. Witchblades wound enemies on a 2+ regardless of toughness and count as S9 when hitting vehicles. There are two uses for such a unit. First, they are an awesome tarpit. The unit is T4 with a 3+/4++, and supported by a Farseer can reroll failed saves and reroll failed to-wound rolls (being 2+, not such a big deal), and they'll be charging with 3 attacks at WS4/I4; if one of those Warlocks has Enhance, they're WS5/I5, so they're going first. Your one saving grace here is that witchblades do not deny you armor saves, but with very few exceptions, the Eldar rely more on swamping your armor saves than they do on penetrating them anyway. PLUS, most Witchblade Jetlock Councils have a plethora of models with the Destructor power, which is a Heavy Flamer shot. Sure we get armor, but they've probably Doomed the unit they're shooting/assaulting anyway, so they're rerolling those 3+s, too. Second, they are a big enough squad that they can string themselves out a bit and charge multiple vehicles. There are several Eldar tacticians on Warseer who push this concept relentlessly. Figure one Seer and five 'locks, and that's 18 S9 attacks hitting on, figure a 4+, against rear armor. If you're castled up, they can probably hit three different tanks. That's a lot of hurt. So, how to counter them? Shoot them to death is really the best answer. A psychic hood can help to shut down Fortune, and Null Zone is great when fighting against Seer Councils of any sort (if you can get it off; most players take Runes of Warding these days to mess with our Librarians). Another option -- IF you can catch them, and since they're on jetbikes, that's going to require work -- is to hit them with Terminators of any sort. Hammernators are not especially required in this instance since you don't need their Invul save; what you do need is at least a powerfist so that you can get Instant Death-dealing S8+ hits on the IC Farseer. Without him, the squad loses Fortune which decreases their durability and loses Doom (which doesn't help as much since they wound on 2+ anyway), and loses Guide (which helps if they're heavy on Singing Spears). Null Zone now goes from good (cancelling Fortune) to great (forcing rerolls of successful saves). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2422126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 I'm an Eldar player on the side, and I don't like these guys because they require entirely too many points and too much attention from a second Farseer to make sure that they stay alive and viable, but I know lots of eldar players who live and die by them. My advice to fighting Jetlocks is simple: keep a psychic hood handy to cancel out Fortune, and swamp them in wounds. They'll fail saves eventually. Just how killy are they? I mean, they are tough, but what damage would they do to a Marine army? Against standard infantry they can be moderately dangerous; while you still get armor saves, they can hit you with TL-shuriken catapults before the charge, and in assault they hit first and have higher WS with Enhance, and since witchblades wound on a 2+ they can force a lot of saves. If you're unlucky with armor saves, they can do a lot of damage to standard infantry before you get a chance to hit back. However, where they really shine is anti-vehicle; since witchblades hit vehicles at strength 9, a full squad of jetbike warlocks can pretty reliable shred most vehicles. Since it has not come up yet, Feel No Pain seems like something that could be useful to have against jetbike councils given that they don't have anything that would negate it. Of course, I don't think Wolves have any good ways to get FNP, so that might not be useful to the OP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2422136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Yeah, the only unit that has it is Lone Wolves, who are 2 wound one model units of doom... with the number of wounds hes looking at it just wont be enough... and they cant have jump packs or bikes, so theres a very limited ability to catch them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2422155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Deus Ex Ferrum is pretty much right on. Only thing I would disagree about is the composition of the units, I see mostly mixed spears and blades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2422207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 So "if" you can get into cc with the JetLocks, assuming you survive the high initiative attacks, you target the Farseer and this starts to unravel some of their shenanigans....? :sweat: Maybe I should take that GK Character to get a Ld 10 Hood. :ermm: That is not so bad, but then I must take a Land Raider because he won't fit in the Rhinos. Boo. I think LR are too hard for many people to deal with, especially if they are green. If only I had a flying Dreadnought or accurate Heroicly-intervening Veterans to catch them with <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2422467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 vortex missle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2423264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 vortex missle. When all else fails, simply remove it from existance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202852-how-do-i-deal-with-this-menace/page/2/#findComment-2423284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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