Rules Questions

[Menos]

I personally see it this way. Honor Guard (type not unit)can take X type of upgrades Non-Honor Guard can not. When you sease being an Honor Guard (ala Sanguinary Novitiate or Blood Champion) you can no longer have any of the HG upgrades. Seeing as you first (if you go in list order) have to upgrade one HG to become a Blood Champion, he no longer get to have any other special do-dads.

 

I think Kabob (goodness your name is long...) has got it right in this blurb here...

 

I don't think I said anything to the contrary of this.

However, our codex muddies the issue a bit by naming both the unit "Honour Guard" and our version of Command Squad veterans "Honour Guard."

I'm saying that, for equipment, only the Honour Guard model type (that's the Honour Guard statline models within the Honour Guard) can utilize the equipment. Sanguinary Novitiates cannot, because while they're in the Honour Guard (unit) they aren't Honour Guard (model/statline type).

 

And I believe that for paying the 20 points to upgrade an HG to Blood Champ, you do loose the BP/CCW. I mean c'mon you're gaining not only a Combat Shield (albeit not a great Inv Save but hey its there), you also get +1WS. Great when you factor in that its only 5 points more that a regular HG with Pwpn.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

And I believe that for paying the 20 points to upgrade an HG to Blood Champ, you do loose the BP/CCW. I mean c'mon you're gaining not only a Combat Shield (albeit not a great Inv Save but hey its there), you also get +1WS. Great when you factor in that its only 5 points more that a regular HG with Pwpn.

Nothing suggests this, however. The loss of equipment is always specifically outlined. Check any HQ exchanging PA for TA, for example. Not to mention the fact that the Command Squad box comes with a combat shield/bolt pistol arm.

[Menos]

And I believe that for paying the 20 points to upgrade an HG to Blood Champ, you do loose the BP/CCW. I mean c'mon you're gaining not only a Combat Shield (albeit not a great Inv Save but hey its there), you also get +1WS. Great when you factor in that its only 5 points more that a regular HG with Pwpn.

Nothing suggests this, however. The loss of equipment is always specifically outlined. Check any HQ exchanging PA for TA, for example. Not to mention the fact that the Command Squad box comes with a combat shield/bolt pistol arm.

 

 

Ok I'll give you that. He keeps his BP/CCW. Now what? He's still not a Honor Guard any longer. He's still been upgraded to a Blood Champion. He is now a new type of infantry model in his unit.

 

Lets take a step back for a second. Tactical Squad. The unit contains both Space Marines and a Space Marine Sergeant. "One Space Marine can replace his Boltgun with..." and "The Space Marine Sergeant can replace his Boltgun/Bolt Pistol with..."

 

Because of those two distinctions, the Space Marine Sergeant can not take a Special/Heavy Weapon, just as a normal Space Marine can not have a Combi-weapon or Special CCW.

 

Same thing with the Honor Guard. A Blood Champion has already been upgraded. Ok so he doesn't loose his equipment (as you've laid out), but I believe he can not be given any more either. Just like the Sanguinary Novitiate.

 

And I ask again, why do you want to do this? Is his (along with all the other squad all ready taken upgrades) not enough? Do you need that extra Plasma/Melta gun in the squad really?!

[igotsmeakabob!!]

The Blood Champion starts out as an Honour Guard, however, unlike the Sergeant who is always a Sergeant.

 

As you can see, these are the typical purchases.

Honour Guard ---> Meltagun

Honour Guard ---> Blood Champion

 

However, there's nothing preventing this:

Honour Guard ---> Meltagun ----> Blood Champion

 

I wouldn't want to actually, but this is a rules discussion and I believe it permissible.

[Menos]

The Blood Champion starts out as an Honour Guard, however, unlike the Sergeant who is always a Sergeant.

 

As you can see, these are the typical purchases.

Honour Guard ---> Meltagun

Honour Guard ---> Blood Champion

 

However, there's nothing preventing this:

Honour Guard ---> Meltagun ----> Blood Champion

 

I wouldn't want to actually, but this is a rules discussion and I believe it permissible.

 

 

I see your line of thinking. I find it completely and utterly possible...BUT, I have a hard time when you go

 

Honor Guard---->Meltagun--->Blood Champion, when the Blood Champion is the FIRST entry in the options section.

 

So I see it as this: Honor Guard--->Blood Champion--->X (Can't have anything else).

 

I guess this rules discussion comes down to WHEN do you pick the Blood Champion. Is it an order choice, or not. If not, then you "win" Kabob. Otherwise, looks like my line or reasoning is more...intact.