3+ Chapter Master ........ REALLY?

[bravo-52]

All right guys and gals.... This one is a little bit rant and a little bit W.T.F. were they thinking. (F is for fudge you dirty minds, I never swear.... I swear it!) I have loved the Flesh Tearers since their original White Dwarf chapter approved index astartes came out way back when. The background and fluff was just so much more interesting than plain old BA or even DA which was what I was playing at the time. So when the new codex came out and I heard the rumors of Lord Seth being one of the "special characters" making an appearance I shrieked like a little school girl with glee. Once the codex arrived I saw the rules and thought that they did a pretty darn good job bringing Seth's character into rules. I fell in love with my Flesh Tearers all over again, and now I had a character I could call my own, instead of using a count as. The model is of course gorgeous, and I'm taking my sweet time painting it, to make sure I make it justice. Having said that I have just one problem with Seth's rules. Lord Seth has a 3+ save. He is a freaking CHAPTER MASTER for Sanginius sake! How in the warp does a master chapter not have an artificer armor ...... I mean really? Lets take a look at all the other chapter masters we know of:

 

Grand Master Azrael Chapter Master of the Dark Angels: 2+

Lord Commander Dante Chapter Master of the Blood Angels: 2+

Great Wolf Logan Grimnar Chapter Master of the Space Wolves: 2+

High Marshal Helbrecht Chapter Master of the Black Templars: 2+

Lord Marneus Augustus Calgar Chapter Master of the Ultramarines: 2+ (armour of antilochus option)

Even a vanilla DIY Chapter Master has the option for artificer armour: 2+

 

The only exception to the rule is Pedro Kantor Chapter Master of the Crimson Fists: 3+

But then again their entire fortress monastery was nuked so I guess he uses whatever he can get his hands on.

 

Don't get me wrong I'll use Lord Seth in every game, but it just doesn't seem right that a chapter master has to go trotting around the galaxy with a mere 3+ to be taken out by a random battle cannon shot. Its not like these suits of armor are so extremely rare that only a few chapter masters can afford one. I mean Astorath has an artificer armor, so does the Sanguinor, as does Mephiston. For crying out loud that raving lunatic Tycho runs around frothing at the mouth in an artificer armor. If you tell me .... "Well the Flesh Tearers are a depleted chapter so they might not have artificer armor for Lord Seth". I will counter with .... They are depleted because they fall prey to the red thirst and black rage on a higher rate than the other Blood Angel successors or the Blood Angels themselves. Not because they lost their homeworld or suffered a calamitous catastrophe. They have enough artificer armor to fit the sanguinary guard with them, every techmarine in the chapter has one, TDA are also available. I just don't see why Lord Commander Gabriel Seth (may his weapon always be bloodied) was not given an artificer armor. Again as I said before, I will use him in every game and I'll enjoy seeing my Lord carve through most vehicles like a hot knife through butter. I don't want an FAQ/errata changing his stats, it just doesn't feel right to risk the Master of the entire chapter with regular power armor. What were they thinking? Tell me what you think.

[Morticon]

I think its purely a question of balance.

 

Next to Tycho, Seth is the best priced Special Character we have available. And I think with a new model to boot, GW wanted to make sure that he saw the field. Giving him a 2+ wouldnt necessarily just increase his cost by the standard 20 points or whatever, I think his cost would go up drastically.

 

Seth is at that point where he has enough extra abilities to balance his points nicely.

 

Also, did you notice he had 4 wounds instead of 3? Everyone else with Arty armour has 3, except the old man. (And our flying Carnifex- but we wont talk about him).

[Pigeons]

i think it's more ridiculous that dante, the oldest space marine alive, IS NOT FEARLESS.

 

 

 

so thousands of years of warfare isn't enough to make a guy fearless? :: snort ::

[Brother Nathan]

Then again there are not a huge amount of ap3 weapons,melta and plas etc are all one and 2, and he does have a 4 + inv. compare that to chaos where anyone who dosent follow tzench has only a 5+ inv at best if at all. Having an inv save used to be :o You could only ever have one halo in an army though anybody could take it that could access the armory. (sanguary high priest with halo + nart+reductor = nasty, thats rerolling to hit, furious charge and as close as fnp as existed back then.)

Also its not that the flesh tearers dont have aa, its more like thery dont make it. its always been that they never bothered much with ordamentataion. they dont seem to have the same artistic streak as ba. and id also say that due to the rage etc that flesh tearers dont have as much of a chance to make armour due to beiing in combat more and a high turnover rate. or maby knowing that anyone of them could fall and risk loosing their relics that they leave them safe in the armoury and are stockpilling a huge amount of artificer armour so when they stand beside the ba on baal everyone will be in it... :blush:

id prefer him to have had the option for a jummp pack, or for regular captains to have had artificer armour option (or even included for free...)

[Isryion]

I think its purely a question of balance.

 

Next to Tycho, Seth is the best priced Special Character we have available. And I think with a new model to boot, GW wanted to make sure that he saw the field. Giving him a 2+ wouldnt necessarily just increase his cost by the standard 20 points or whatever, I think his cost would go up drastically.

 

Seth is at that point where he has enough extra abilities to balance his points nicely.

 

Also, did you notice he had 4 wounds instead of 3? Everyone else with Arty armour has 3, except the old man. (And our flying Carnifex- but we wont talk about him).

 

 

Not to try and derail the thread, but I think you could make an argument that Astorath actually is, but that depends on your army build.

[wookielips]

I think its purely a question of balance.

 

Next to Tycho, Seth is the best priced Special Character we have available. And I think with a new model to boot, GW wanted to make sure that he saw the field. Giving him a 2+ wouldnt necessarily just increase his cost by the standard 20 points or whatever, I think his cost would go up drastically.

 

Seth is at that point where he has enough extra abilities to balance his points nicely.

 

Also, did you notice he had 4 wounds instead of 3? Everyone else with Arty armour has 3, except the old man. (And our flying Carnifex- but we wont talk about him).

 

 

Not to try and derail the thread, but I think you could make an argument that Astorath actually is, but that depends on your army build.

 

i think you would have a hard time arguing astorath's costs as being our best, at least in bang for your buck/points.

[Looted Monolith]

First of all the Lord of the ULRAMARINES wears 3+ armor, as well what is your complaint you have a level headed character that is tough ferocious and your angry he's not into audacious gaudy artificer armor.

 

Seth is amazing I have yet to lose our lord on the field and in one game he had to blugion 20 krut to death, another he was left with just one of his honor gaurd and still managed to beat the lights out of a squad of 9 noise marines after walking through a vindacator that wiped his body gaurd.

 

I have not rended once tho, pretty sure he never turns on that sword.

 

Hail Seth

 

real quick why? is Tycho our next best character points wise.

 

I would think Librarians, Mefiston, and corburo rounding off the top.

[Brother Nathan]

tycho does shooting and cc well, gives the army a leadership buff, has artificer armour, etc, he just struggles against some toughstuff in cc, but he does ignore armour...

[wookielips]

tycho would be a nice unit to have against the multiple IG players i have in my area that take psyker battle squads. 2 units NOT running off the board turn 1 is nice.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

tycho would be a nice unit to have against the multiple IG players i have in my area that take psyker battle squads. 2 units NOT running off the board turn 1 is nice.

Not to mention that the Space Wolf lord is in Terminator Armor,thus limiting his abilities. No Sweeping Advance for instance. In fact,we only have two Characters that comes in runic armor(artificer armor equivalent) and that is our RP and WP. Given the option of giving the old man another wound to get only a 3+ save for normal,Yeah I would make that trade in a heartbeat.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It's just not fair.

 

0b :D

[Isryion]

i think you would have a hard time arguing astorath's costs as being our best, at least in bang for your buck/points.

 

I looked as Seth again, and I'd admit he's more cost effective, especially since he is cheaper.

 

Here's why I like astorath, in terms of cost, but it's really only if you go with several units that have the red thirst. Even though he allows death company, the more you take, the more it lessens his cost effectiveness. So, the downside here is that you've got two rules, and in order to maximize one, the other becomes less useful.

 

Now as for cost, Astorath, at base, is a reclusiarch with a jump pack. The base cost is 155. Artificer armor in C:SM is 15 points. That puts him around 170. His weapon is better than a relic blade, which is 15 more points than a power weapon that a reclusiarch would normally come with. Now, we're at 185. That's as far as we can get in terms of clearly defined points but we're only 35 points below his cost at this point. Asto also comes with WS 6 (better than a reclusiarch) and the ability to force rerolls of invulnerable saves. A couple of red thirst rolls and I think you're way ahead in terms of value.

 

Mephiston is really a good deal as well, no doubt, but he has some very clear drawbacks.

[Malus the Destroyer]

It sucks, but hey. We have the ONLY character in the game that kicks enemies in the nuts when they whiff badly swinging at him! That and a 2 Hand chainsword in and of itself is what made me do Flesh Tearers, instead of revitalising my old Blood Angels.

[wookielips]

i think you would have a hard time arguing astorath's costs as being our best, at least in bang for your buck/points.

 

I looked as Seth again, and I'd admit he's more cost effective, especially since he is cheaper.

 

Here's why I like astorath, in terms of cost, but it's really only if you go with several units that have the red thirst. Even though he allows death company, the more you take, the more it lessens his cost effectiveness. So, the downside here is that you've got two rules, and in order to maximize one, the other becomes less useful.

 

Now as for cost, Astorath, at base, is a reclusiarch with a jump pack. The base cost is 155. Artificer armor in C:SM is 15 points. That puts him around 170. His weapon is better than a relic blade, which is 15 more points than a power weapon that a reclusiarch would normally come with. Now, we're at 185. That's as far as we can get in terms of clearly defined points but we're only 35 points below his cost at this point. Asto also comes with WS 6 (better than a reclusiarch) and the ability to force rerolls of invulnerable saves. A couple of red thirst rolls and I think you're way ahead in terms of value.

 

Mephiston is really a good deal as well, no doubt, but he has some very clear drawbacks.

 

imo, bang for your buck comes from a basic thought: what am i getting for x points.

 

im losing 100 points for ast vs a captain w 2xLC with a nearly impressive stat line, and i get another model to allocate wounds TO with an added chappie on the same unit, and then everyone's rerolling hits, capt rerolls wounds and the DC they are probably hanging with reroll both too; which emulates ast at the same cost but a LOT more punch on the table.

 

that, to me, means that captain is a much more effective purchase

[the jeske]

does it matter what kind of a save a character that has to run with a bodyguard has , if in hth he dies to fist anyway because of lack of eternal warrior?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I think it reflects the Flesh Tearers perfectly. Sort of like the Crimson Fists. Low on manpower, low on resources, their Chapter Master wears regular power armor to uphold its power to his men.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

It's just not fair.

 

0b :)

Since I am fairly sure that comment was made in regards to me intended to be a sarcastic retort to my post,I will respond in kind. What I was trying to convey was the fact that the example he used for the Space Wolves was inaccurate as while we have a item similar to Artificier armor,the Character in question wasn't in it. That was the intent of my post,to correct a misunderstanding about the Character in question and his relation to the arguement presented by the original poster. Fairness or Unfairness had nothing to do with the Post I made. Clearly I need to be very specific and clear in my statements to prevent people from misunderstanding and then proceeding to post comments that do not add to the discussion in any meaningful way. For that my apologies,I shall endeavor to be clearer in future.

[wookielips]

does it matter what kind of a save a character that has to run with a bodyguard has , if in hth he dies to fist anyway because of lack of eternal warrior?

 

IC's move first, it should be easy to keep a PF out of HTH.

[Droofus]

As a Flesh Tearer player I will say this on behalf of the chapter's tech marines:

 

"We can barely keep our Rhinos running and you expect us to make some ARTIFICER armor?"

[Isryion]

imo, bang for your buck comes from a basic thought: what am i getting for x points.

 

im losing 100 points for ast vs a captain w 2xLC with a nearly impressive stat line, and i get another model to allocate wounds TO with an added chappie on the same unit, and then everyone's rerolling hits, capt rerolls wounds and the DC they are probably hanging with reroll both too; which emulates ast at the same cost but a LOT more punch on the table.

 

that, to me, means that captain is a much more effective purchase

 

I agree with your first statement, and that's my argument as well, though, I see your point. Most are valid but overall, I don't think that's a fair comparison because, again, it comes back to how you structure your army. Now if you're taking Astorath, you probably have jump packs in your army. (If you don't, you are maybe running them with an assault squad of 7-8 in a rhino? In this case, your unit actually has the same number of wounds as Astrorath + 10 with jump packs). Anyway, let's assume jump packs. The cost for your two characters is 280 points, and a 16% chance of furious charge on the unit, unless you've added a sang priest (again with jump pack), in which case it's now 355 points for characters. Back to the structuring the army point, you've also used an elite slot for the chaplain, which may or may not have been a competitive slot.

 

Back on topic, though, since Seth doesn't come with a jump pack, that limits him to certain army builds, which is fine and not necessarily a major drawback. Also, to be honest, I thinkt 160 points is a lot to pay for a model in our army that doesn't grant some other benefit. Seth is going to beat out another captain who is similarly armed any day, and that's why he's cost effective, but I would still have a tough time taking him over a reclusiarch, for example.

[the jeske]

IC's move first, it should be easy to keep a PF out of HTH.

how offten do you see fists in first rank in 5th ed?

[wookielips]

IC's move first, it should be easy to keep a PF out of HTH.

how offten do you see fists in first rank in 5th ed?

 

if you charge cross combat, or have 2 ICs (as i mentioned in the above post, capt & chappie) then put one on one end and one on the other, and roll well or bring PWs to clear all the target on the charge.

[Lynnean]

(And our flying Carnifex- but we wont talk about him).

if you don't mind, sigged :)

[Whitefireinferno]

Yes Seth does have plain old Power Armour But really do you think he cares for some fancy armour,

Nah it does not make the Blood Reaver any better and those who have Problems with Seth will feel their Crotchplate colapse from a angry knee to the groin and then receive a headbutt that will KO a rhino. Also remember one failed save and it's game over for almost any space marine due to his Str8 strikes at Inititive*I.e higher than most* Order Rending Chain Sword of pure Epic Bad assery.

[Darkchild130]

As a Flesh Tearer player I will say this on behalf of the chapter's tech marines:

 

"We can barely keep our Rhinos running and you expect us to make some ARTIFICER armor?"

 

 

On the contrary, our wargear functions perfectly, we just dont bother making it look fancy!

 

Darkchild