why the sanguinator hate?

[Glendor]

I have noticed that several people tend to hate the Sanguinor and love Mephiston when in reality they seem around the same and against anything but Mephiston's 5 wounds he would kill no problem.

 

This is my first time trying to do this math hammer stuff but from what I have observed If Mephiston charged and got off unleash rage and sanguine sword he will cause 1.25 wound on Sanguinor after the invulnerable saves. When the Sanguinor attacks back assuming he uses avenging angel on Mephiston causes 3.3 wounds on Mephiston.

 

Now that scenario didnt have Mephiston using transfixing gaze but it seems like Mephiston is not that much better than the Sanguinor in hth. Also Mephiston never shot his plasma pistol either but I think that with the Sanguinors blessing and Aura of Fervour he is definitely worth the points.

 

Also I have a question regarding is you can use sanguinors blessing on another armies Sergent in the case of you having a sang guard army and you have a partner?

[Gridlocked]

Regarding your query: That is something you will have to discuss with the other players/organiser of the tournament. Some games are ok to have combined benefits like that, but generaly there are none. Elese you would stick a SangPriest behind the horde of Guardsmen/Orks/Nids and say "Sup FNP saves for all!"

 

Now in the scenario of Mephiston VS The Sanguinor.

Lets have a look if we factor in everything, just in a make believe battle between the 2. Because Mephy is apperntly the underdog he can start.

 

Mephy (M) shoots at Sangy (S) with his plasma pistol, Rolls a 4 to score a hit, Rolls a 3 to score a wound!

S takes saves, AP2 thus no Armour save, Rolls a 5 on Invul save, No wounds taken.

M uses Unleash Rage, total is 6, gains prefered enemey, 2 powers left this turn

M uses Sanguine Sword, total is 4, s10 this turn, 1 power left this turn

M assaults S, +1 Attack on assault, +1 Attack for 1H/Pistol, A total 6

M uses Transfixing Gaze, S takes Leadership test at 6 LD, roll is 7 test failed!

M uses 6 A, needs 4+ to hit, rolls are 6 6 3 6 2 4, prefed enemey re rolls are 5 3, therefore 5 hits

M hits at S10, needs 2+ to wound, rolls are 2 5 6 6 4, 5 wounds.

S cant armour save (force weapon), invul save rolls are 2 1 4 6 5, 2 wounds taken, 1 remains.

S strikes back! 5 A

S uses 5 A, needs +3 to hit, rolls are 4 1 4 4 5, Master-Crafted re roll is 2, 4 hits!

S hits at S5, needs +5 to wound, rolls are 3 1 1 4, Avenging Angel re rolls are 1 3 4 6 3, 1 wound, 4 remain!

Locked in close combat!

M uses Unleah rage, total is 6, gains prefered enemey, 2 powers left this turn

M uses Sanguine Sword, total is 5, s10 this turn, 1 power left this turn

M attacks S, +1 Attack for 1H/Pistol, A total 5

M uses 5A, needs a 4+ to hit, rolls are 1 3 6 1 6, prefered enemey rerolls are 5 6, 5 hits!

M hits at S10, need 2+ to wound, rolls are 6 5 2 3 4, 5 wounds!

S cant armour save (force weapon), invul save rolls are 3 5 2 6 4, 1 wound taken, 0 remains.

M is victorious!

 

Thats what happened when I did it.

[wookielips]

*mathhammer on sang vs meph*

 

you are not adding 2 reasons why sang is on the table:

 

1. the 3-5 units of RAS/VV/SG/DC within 6" of him, ALL getting +1 attack. more than enough to overwhelm meph's 2+ armor save.

2. the sgt buff, turning someone on the field into a madman who will wreck havok even when his ablative wou....err, squad dies. you get a free minor HQ/killer on the table with sang.

 

both reasons are more than enough for me to put sang over meph quite often, and i have one question for you:

 

have you tried meph vs. eldar? sang preforms 100% in that scenario. meph does NOT.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

*mathhammer on sang vs meph*

 

you are not adding 2 reasons why sang is on the table:

 

1. the 3-5 units of RAS/VV/SG/DC within 6" of him, ALL getting +1 attack. more than enough to overwhelm meph's 2+ armor save.

2. the sgt buff, turning someone on the field into a madman who will wreck havok even when his ablative wou....err, squad dies. you get a free minor HQ/killer on the table with sang.

 

both reasons are more than enough for me to put sang over meph quite often, and i have one question for you:

 

have you tried meph vs. eldar? sang preforms 100% in that scenario. meph does NOT.

These are all reasons why Sanguinor does better in a group environment,then in a Death match. Mephiston does great in a Death match situation,but HQ's like Sanguinor and Logan Grimnir buff their army and this makes them better options in my opinion.

[Menos]

Just a small FYI:

 

You are forgetting one HUGE thing in your little Mathammer World. Mephiston does not get to use his Transfixing Gaze on Sanguinator (I do see that you have him using his Unleash Rage though so this is a tad redundant, though he has to cast it every Assault Phase possibly getting a Perils roll...). It only affects enemy IC's. Whereas Sanguinator's affects enemy HQ units.

[Gridlocked]

My math is wrong anyway. I just realized I forgot to factor in power weapons on Sangy.

Anyway I understand why people like Sangy, army buffer and best friend of all. But Mephs qualities lie in his force weapon, his hoodie and his ability to take punishment like a drugged up elephant.

[Morticon]

Yeah, we shouldnt really compare the two by putting them up against each other. That doesnt make much sense.

Its how they do against others.

 

Sanguinor is more reliable.

Much, much more reliable.

He does however require a certain build to make proper use of his abilities (that you are paying for).

Thats not a bad thing by any means, but they fulfill different roles.

 

As soon as I get my Sang counts-as modelled/painted up, Mephy will go on a short break.

[BrotherMoses]

Personally, I'm not a fan of The Sanguinor because I can't stand 99.9% of the new fluff in our codex. The Sanguinor seems to be very similar to Mephiston except that he traded some of his combat monkey powers for boost up a few others powers. The only really good thing about mephiston is that he psyches the crap out of anyone you're facing.

[Gridlocked]

Disregard my comments, I am ignorant.

In the end I going to say that I like Mephys model more and I like his price.

However I can see Sangy is also a great guy to have. Different uses because they are different characters.

[Crynn]

Yeah, we shouldnt really compare the two by putting them up against each other. That doesnt make much sense.

Its how they do against others.

 

Sanguinor is more reliable.

Much, much more reliable.

He does however require a certain build to make proper use of his abilities (that you are paying for).

Thats not a bad thing by any means, but they fulfill different roles.

 

As soon as I get my Sang counts-as modelled/painted up, Mephy will go on a short break.

 

I disagree on the reliability front for these reasons.

People say Meph doesnt work Vs eldar, which I have never found. These toughness 3 alieans dont actually require meph to use any psychic powers to kill and you can still get wings off if you try might loose 1 wound but after first turn with fleet you should no longer need it. He also mucks up there farseer, wait till his guide or fortune gets nulled by the psychic hood, meph can kill any farseer in combat without a single power and can deal with all their troops as well without powers. Stop going gun ho on mephs powers vs eldar and you will find he does very well at just annoying them anyway.

As for overall reliability heres why the sang isnt as good. He dies quicker to shooting, and alot quicker. If you cant get meph a cover save, quit playing seriously, hope is lost for you, not only is meph a smaller target but 90% of guns out there find a toughness 6 2+/4++(cover) harder to wound than tougness 4 2+/3++. Also the sangs ability is only usefull against one hq and then after that he is really rather average, will not beat the average daemon prince in combat without that ability. When he runs in kills something and doesnt make his points up from it he can then get charged by any walker and pretty much be screwed, meph on the other hand can kill anything and has the higher iniative to do it without taking wounds.

Meph also doesnt get bogged down as easy, gets more rerolls to hit, wounds easier and is much harder to wound by the average ork/nid so swarms arent a problem then he will run them down better than the sanguinor.

 

Side note. Still havent lost a game to eldar and I take meph everytime, has never not made his points back against them.

[Captain Idaho]

Imagine an army with both the Sanguinor and Mephiston in it!

[Menos]

Imagine an army with both the Sanguinor and Mephiston in it!

 

 

You mean like mine?

 

 

Sanguinor 275

Mephiston 250

 

DC x5 PF Rhino EA Dozer 195

 

DC Dreadnought MG HF 150

 

RAS x8 PF Melta Rhino EA Dozer Searchlight HK 235

RAS x8 PF Melta Rhino EA Dozer Searchlight HK 235

 

Scouts x5 75

 

Sanguinary Priest PWpn 65

Sanguinary Priest PWpn 65

Corbulo 105

 

Chaplain 100

 

1750 on the nose...

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah something like that! :D Would probably drop a little more stuff to squeeze in more infantry and vehicles, but yeah that is a nasty combo!

[SamaNagol]

Mephiston cannot use Transfixing Gaze on The Sanguinor

[Crynn]

the sanguinor doesnt kill much if it isnt his dedicated HQ unit to kill, he really doesnt kill much more than say vulcan after that ability is gone, greanted much higher initiative and fc and plenty of benefits but against the average squad not really much difference. Dont get me wrong the Sang has his uses.

 

On a side not Meph strangles daemon princes and rips apart hive tyrants and fexs. While the sanguinor killed a daemon our primach once lost to. This only shows how average matt ward is at writing, the sangs fluff sucks! "damn BA's dont have legion of the damned" Matt ward" Dont worry I have a brilliant idea!......" the rest is history.

[Tokunator]

The Sanguinor is only as brilliant as the best character on the other side. If he manages to kill Ghazghull, Abbadon or a model of similar points, he is geat, but if the opponent only fields a cheap Captain or Warboss, you're 150 points or more over. Although he supports units within his 6" bubble and boosts one Sergeant, he himself is not that great at taking on units or monsters, only ICs. In essence, he is a 275 points Hunter Killer missile.

 

Mephiston on the other hand is pretty good at killing everything. His S10 can rip apart tanks, even Land Raiders or Monoliths. His Transfixing Gaze and Force Weapon make him equally good at killing ICs (he is even better at it against characters without Eternal Warrior as he can Instant Kill them whereas the Sanguinor has to fight through their wounds and Invulnerable saves). And his higher toughness enables him to stay in the fight while he is butchering infantry. To summarize, he is a 250 points Swiss Army Knife (or Swiss Army Chainsaw).

 

I used him in a game two weeks ago and although he lost 4 wounds to Perils of the Warp before he hacked down the Farseer with the Runes of Warding, he nevertheless survived the game and had killed a Wraithlord (something the Sanguinor can only wound on a 6), 6 Fire Dragons, Fuegan (just as quickly as the Sanguinor would have done, namely in one single round of combat), a Seer and some Tau before the game ended. I doubt that the Sanguinor would have been able to reap the same tally of kills.

[Morticon]

i think if most people are using a model with 6 power weapon attacks at WS8, Init7 and S6 on the charge (with one reroll to hit) to go after big things/ICs/HQs then they just maaaaay have missed the Point Boat.

 

This guy chomps through heavy infantry squads.

[TrentL]

Its apples and tomatoes when your comparing Meph and Sang... yes they are both Fruit (HQ's) But they have different purposes...

 

An Apple (Meph) Is meant to be eaten all by himself where a Tomatoe is added to something existing to make it better (Bread, Hamburger, Pizza ;))

 

Meph excels at flying around and crushing stuff in his path all by his lonesome where

 

Sang he shines when he's following up an HG squad or a SG squad or a RAS or VV or heck all of that, and giving them a huge +1 attack bubble... oh I wonder how many people will put him in a SR to extend his bubble :P ]

 

it takes a regular RAS and turns them into Vets, takes tacticals and makes them into RAS, it takes Death Company and makes them Deathier company?? ;) it takes the SGT and turns him into a mini HQ... you can't knock that it is very powerful, but its very DIFFERENT than Meph.

[BladeEncarmine]

I actually like the Sanguinor in terms of his rules.

 

In my local metagame, people tend to like playing silly things like SM Honour Guards and Bike Command Squads. Since the Sanguinor allows you to choose an HQ unit to assassinate, I tend to pick on the poor fools without invulnerable saves to munch on and let my boosted Sang Guard/DC/3 Assault Squads eat the characters at the same time.

 

Fluffwise on the other hand... yeah, Ward has some issues with his fluff writing skills.

[Menos]

In my local metagame, people tend to like playing silly things like SM Honour Guards and Bike Command Squads. Since the Sanguinor allows you to choose an HQ unit to assassinate, I tend to pick on the poor fools without invulnerable saves to munch on and let my boosted Sang Guard/DC/3 Assault Squads eat the characters at the same time.

 

This is an important point to remember. Its Super Preferred Enemy against an HQ unit. Ie, go after that Inquisitor with Retuine, Bike Command squad, Seer Council...you get the idea.

 

And you shouldn't be throwing a 275 point HQ with stats and abilities like that willy-nilly at anything. Be smart, and support support support!