Quick question about Mephiston.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Ok, So this is the situation. In the past,a Blood Angels Player has again and again denied me using powers that state they have to be done at the start of a turn or start of a phase,by stating that the start means before any movement or anything else that phase,except for other things that occur at the start. This has saved him from me casting Tempest wrath several times.

 

Now,on to the question. In the rule book,under enthralling gaze,it says "At the start of the assault phase,Mephiston can attempt to enthrall a single enemy Independant Character in base contact." The rest of the rules go on to say how this whole thing occurs but thats not the focus of this question. And that question is :By the rules as they are written,Does this mean that Mephiston would have to be in base contact at the start of the assault phase in order to enthrall him,thus meaning that he couldn't charge and then Enthrall.

 

The second question is :If someone has been using the rulebook as a sledgehammer to keep you from doing things that could harm his army,using RAW as the criteria and ignoring things like common sense. Is it morally wrong when you find a situation where he has either 'forgotton' or flat out ignored rules,to force him to play by the rules he has bludgeoned me with?

 

Now..I will state flat out,that I am fairly sure that the Intent was to let Mephiston charge and then enthrall. That's not in question at all. But since there is no Errata or FAQ that I am aware of for the Blood Angels,I can't say for sure. I will also state that I believe that the things that say "start of a turn or start of a phase" are not meant to say "the very first thing you do" and In a normal situation I wouldn't have any issue with just letting it go,but as stated,this guy has beaten me bloody with RAW multiple times. And when someone Ruleslawyers me,I take it to mean that from that point on,everything they will do is completly and totally by the rules,and that whenever that comes up short I should point it out.

 

Alternately,If anyone has something OFFICIAL that shows that it doesn't work this way then please by all means point it out.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

By RAW, Mephy can't do Gaze 'til the second assault phase. Yup. Not so sure about RAI.

As for getting even.. that's up to you. Depends on what kind of a player you want to be. Moral decisions, and all

 

PS, as far as I know 'at the start of the turn/phase' IS the first thing you do.

[Wax_Assassin]

Yeah, I'd stick it to him. If he's gonna give you a hard time with RAW give it right back.

[BrotherMoses]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Yeah yeah its cliche, but somebody has to say it. I would wait to catch him trying to do it. If he does it and doesn't say anything about it point it out to him. From there discuss if he still wishes to do it. Make it clear that if he does it he will have just agreed to what is right now your vision of how the assault phase works and now all those other scenarios he put you in will work for your favor as well. Hopefully, with some open and honest communication you can bring him around to a more amenable interpretation of the rules. If he afterwards attempts to go back on his word to let you use that same interpretation for your models then remind him of this instance.

 

If he then proves to be dishonest or boorish then simply don't play with him again and let others know why if they should ask.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Yeah yeah its cliche, but somebody has to say it. I would wait to catch him trying to do it. If he does it and doesn't say anything about it point it out to him. From there discuss if he still wishes to do it. Make it clear that if he does it he will have just agreed to what is right now your vision of how the assault phase works and now all those other scenarios he put you in will work for your favor as well. Hopefully, with some open and honest communication you can bring him around to a more amenable interpretation of the rules. If he afterwards attempts to go back on his word to let you use that same interpretation for your models then remind him of this instance.

 

If he then proves to be dishonest or boorish then simply don't play with him again and let others know why if they should ask.

If it was an option to not play him again,I wouldn't play him at all since I have found several instances of him 'forgetting' rules and not finding out until I came home after the weekly tournament and read up on what he was using. Unfortunately all of these have occured at my Stores weekly Tournament. Prize is 20 bucks in store credit. And like I said...this isn't the first time I have realized too late he was breaking rules,but this is the first instance of the double standard and its one I can guarentee will come up the next time I have to play him. And yes,you are right...two Wrongs won't make things better. But,this isn't exactly a Wrong...so much as balancing the scales,and that the same conditions apply to both players...which is only fair.

 

And I personally would never intentionally cheat...But when it comes to things being Fair,I am a very firm believer in that. So in the spirit of Fairness,I should use his own statements about the rules to affect his actions as they affect mine.

[Morticon]

Hes right on the Enthrall and when to cast sadly. All at the start of the phase.

 

However, you have two options of how to go about playing this. And usually I adopt this method when im friendly gaming/not in a tourney - and actually even sometimes in a tourney.

 

Let him know where he's wrong, what hes doing wrong, how he should do it- and then let him get away with it anyway. Saying, its all good- just remember for next time.

 

That way, any reasonable person would give you the benefit of the doubt next time you forget.

 

I do believe that "use at start of turn" type abilities are part of a tactic and something to remember, so if you forget, then toughies. And its a quick way to learn by making that mistake. However, theres no need to be a donkey about it to your opponent. Little bit of leeway goes a long way.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Hes right on the Enthrall and when to cast sadly. All at the start of the phase.

 

However, you have two options of how to go about playing this. And usually I adopt this method when im friendly gaming/not in a tourney - and actually even sometimes in a tourney.

 

Let him know where he's wrong, what hes doing wrong, how he should do it- and then let him get away with it anyway. Saying, its all good- just remember for next time.

 

That way, any reasonable person would give you the benefit of the doubt next time you forget.

 

I do believe that "use at start of turn" type abilities are part of a tactic and something to remember, so if you forget, then toughies. And its a quick way to learn by making that mistake. However, theres no need to be a donkey about it to your opponent. Little bit of leeway goes a long way.

Normally I would too...But the problem is...that he has not shown any leeway in the past. And in fact has been quite a douche about it. I have thought about it...and I have decided that his actions have indicated that he is not worth mercy or compassion. I am a firm believer in the golden rule about Do unto Others...In this case,now that he has given me both the oppurtunity and has shown that he is not out for good games,but instead is all about winning ,he is going to be done good and proper. I want to thank you all for your advice and your moral recommendations..I have taken them under consideration...I just cannot stand to let someone that has acted the way he has in the past,both to myself and others,any benefit of reasonable doubt. He is supposed to have vast experience playing,he points out every time a rule would benefit him or harm his enemy. He gives his furioso dreads fleet half the games i have played against him. And other questionable acts. He deserves to be nailed to a wall....and he just got done handing me the hammer.

 

That being said...thank you all again for the advice.

[Leonaides]

Its a store tourney, right? Just have a quiet word with the manager ahead of time and say "this guy's being rather 'flexible' with the rules" or somesuch. Make sure the people running it are awared he's doing it, and ask them to keep a very close eye on him. If they're accepting your money, they have a duty to make sure no-one's cheating. All they need to do is hang about enar the table he's on and keep an eye on him, listen out for what he says he's doing and watch him during the game. If he plays fair, then all sgood and he'll never know, if he cheats or bends the rules, then they are on hand to tell him to sling his hook...

 

(just make sure that the TO has read up on the BA rules beforehand)

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Its a store tourney, right? Just have a quiet word with the manager ahead of time and say "this guy's being rather 'flexible' with the rules" or somesuch. Make sure the people running it are awared he's doing it, and ask them to keep a very close eye on him. If they're accepting your money, they have a duty to make sure no-one's cheating. All they need to do is hang about enar the table he's on and keep an eye on him, listen out for what he says he's doing and watch him during the game. If he plays fair, then all sgood and he'll never know, if he cheats or bends the rules, then they are on hand to tell him to sling his hook...

 

(just make sure that the TO has read up on the BA rules beforehand)

Yeah that is certainly something I plan to do if I catch him doing something against the rules. It's not a paid tournament,so much as these are promotional things,the store is relatively new so the owners are doing this as a "help get people interested,help get people playing" so on and so forth. Anyways..The problem is that there are multiple tables going on,plus more often then not the owner is playing too. But there are generally a couple of Veteran players wandering around the tables keeping an eye on things,making sure everyone is having fun,that sort of thing. But mostly it has been on the honor system...Whats worse is that the guys normally doing the wandering are friends with this guy...so I can't easily go "Hey your buddy there is cheating" But I can call him on things that I can easily and quickly prove at the table,and I know that doing it that way,he can't refute it.

[Hellios]

Hi my biggest army is Eldar (Ulthwé) so I've always taken a lot of psykers and I honestly can't see what the problem is. If something has to be done a specific part of the turn (player o game) that is when it has to be done... otherwise when playing chaos I would move and spawn or deepstrike and spawn. So personally I don't think it is being a douche... It is like Imperial Guard orders... they must be given from the most senior officer to the most junior otherwise you forfeit the ones you have missed out. I might be friendly sometimes and let people get away with it but that is also like house rules but some people like to play RAW and nothing else... now pointing out the mistake they are making and letting them correct it is cool... For example I'm about tio move some Eldar and my opponent says do you want to cast some powers first... that is good but once I've actually moved it is a bit late.

 

So yer write a list with the things you need to do and in what order, do it in order (not causing you any problems) and should he try and do something that is not RAW just tell him he can't... and then kill Mephiston :)

[Leonaides]

RotW - How about the next tournament you go to there, if this guy turns up you take one for the team and follow him yourself. As he's doing stuff, you keep an eye on it, and find the relevant special rules yourself. He cheats - you call one of the refs over and tell them, in front of him and his opponent, that what he's just done is illegal, then the guy cant just say he didnt do it (because his opponent will turn around and say - yes you did) which then puts the red on the spot, he either has to disipline his friend for cheating, or say what he's done is fine, in which case the opponent is gonna get on the refs case for being biased.

 

Even if the store manager is playing at the time, if money's changing hands, then from a business perspective he's got a lot to lose if rumours start that these competitions are screwy...

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Hi my biggest army is Eldar (Ulthwé) so I've always taken a lot of psykers and I honestly can't see what the problem is. If something has to be done a specific part of the turn (player o game) that is when it has to be done... otherwise when playing chaos I would move and spawn or deepstrike and spawn. So personally I don't think it is being a douche... It is like Imperial Guard orders... they must be given from the most senior officer to the most junior otherwise you forfeit the ones you have missed out. I might be friendly sometimes and let people get away with it but that is also like house rules but some people like to play RAW and nothing else... now pointing out the mistake they are making and letting them correct it is cool... For example I'm about tio move some Eldar and my opponent says do you want to cast some powers first... that is good but once I've actually moved it is a bit late.

 

So yer write a list with the things you need to do and in what order, do it in order (not causing you any problems) and should he try and do something that is not RAW just tell him he can't... and then kill Mephiston :D

You missed the part about how he skewers me with the rules,and then ignores them himself if following them would be to his detriment. THAT is the point,not whether or not rules should be followed,which I agree with. That he continually 'forgets' rules if it would cause him harm.

 

RotW - How about the next tournament you go to there, if this guy turns up you take one for the team and follow him yourself. As he's doing stuff, you keep an eye on it, and find the relevant special rules yourself. He cheats - you call one of the refs over and tell them, in front of him and his opponent, that what he's just done is illegal, then the guy cant just say he didnt do it (because his opponent will turn around and say - yes you did) which then puts the red on the spot, he either has to disipline his friend for cheating, or say what he's done is fine, in which case the opponent is gonna get on the refs case for being biased.

 

Even if the store manager is playing at the time, if money's changing hands, then from a business perspective he's got a lot to lose if rumours start that these competitions are screwy...

That is probably what I am gonna end up doing the next time If I can't bust him with it this week.