Is rending waisted on a PF?

[Guganation]

Taking a wolflord w/TW mount for the first time. He'll be running with 15 F'wolves in a campain I'm taking part in.

 

Question is. What's the best all around cc weapons configuration for this bad boy? I started thinking PF/SS figuring he'll be finishing off anything the wolves don't get their teeth into (Saga of the wolfkin is also in the army so they have a 5 inish), but now I'm thinking that there must be a better option. I want definite kills at the end of cc.

 

anyone with experience with this? help please.

[Blarmb]

Taking a wolflord w/TW mount for the first time. He'll be running with 15 F'wolves in a campain I'm taking part in.

 

Question is. What's the best all around cc weapons configuration for this bad boy? I started thinking PF/SS figuring he'll be finishing off anything the wolves don't get their teeth into (Saga of the wolfkin is also in the army so they have a 5 inish), but now I'm thinking that there must be a better option. I want definite kills at the end of cc.

 

anyone with experience with this? help please.

 

 

Rending gets overwritten, so yes it's wasted. However +1 Attack, +1 Toughness are nothing to scoff at. Also the +1 STrength is added to the "Base" so power fists and thunder hammers on a wolflord are S10, not S9. They have a lot of good loadouts.

 

WC/SS - Most durable infantry killer.

 

WC/WC - Most deadly infantry killer. Combine with Sage of the Warrior born for people slurry.

TH (or PF)/SS - Very durable, can punch a hole in anything ID's anything that can be ID'd. On a model this expensive people usually pitch in the extra points for the Thunderhammer.

 

FB/Pistol - Good Infantry killer. more economical than 2x WCs. Performs slightly better in certain edge cases against very high toughness units than twin wolf claws. However at that point you're trying to hammer in screws.

 

FB/SS - Generally a trap. No more economical than WC/SS and not as good at killing infantry. Performs slightly better in certain edge cases against very high toughness units than WC/SS. however at that point you're trying to hammer in screws.

[wiplash]

pay the extra points for a thunderhammer they leave squads with initiative 1 after being wounded and vehicles are crew stunned etc

striking at S10 with an extra attack ias ausome!!!

 

plus you have a higher toughness so harder to kill, maybe consider taking runic armour to increase your chances of survival

 

i do usually run a wolf lord and wolves squad, how ever the past 2 games this has led to to his destruction with 2 squads of dire avengers bladestorming me in the first turn (thats 60 S4 shots) now this takes the majority toughness (4 rather than the wolf lords 5) making them easier to kill, not only this but you take the majority save and with AP5 i get no saves on the wolves so wolf lord goes down too :D

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

Well starting with your topic title rending is waisted on a powerfist as in the Thunderwolf Mount equipment entry it states that the character riding a Thunderwolf mount has a unit type of cavalrt, adds +1 strength, +1 toughness, and +1 attack to his profile, and has the rending rule in close combat with any attack that DOES NOT use a special weapon. Power Fists are special weapons so if you take one then rending is negated as it is with every other special close combat weapon.

 

That being said when I run my Wolf Lord on his TWM I either give him 2 wolf claws and the saga of the warrior born or I give him a frost blade and a plasma pistol with either the saga of the warrior born again or the saga of the beast slayer.

 

Now if you take my first option your going to have a lord thats S5, T5 with 6 attacks (7 on the charge) that ignore armor saves and you are allowed to re-roll failed hits or failed saves. And then in the next turn you add the previous amount of kills onto your base amount of attacks. Basicly this means on average you will have a large amount of attacks and better than average chance of hitting and wounding with all of those. Thanks to this configuration I have butchered infantry units ranging from ork mobs, tyranid hordes and imperial guard platoons.

 

The second congifuration is more of an all rounder for me. The Frost Blade is a power weapon that adds +1 strength to your character. Combined with the TWM and the Plasma Pistol this makes your character S6 with again 6 attacks (7 on charge) that ignore armor saves and you gain a little ranged power. For me this is a configuration that does well against elite infantry, characters and if your feeling brave monstrous creatures but still has the capability to damage infantry squads.

 

Now a third option that I usually only field when I know I'll be fighting armies with lots of tough units (like nids, daemons or mechanised lists) is to take a thunder hammer and plasma pistol with the saga of the beast slayer. This will give you 5 attacks (6 on the charge or 7 if you take another thunder hammer instead of a plasma pistol) at strengh 10. Also you could take saga of the warrior born with this configuration which would give you alot of instant kill potential for basic infantry in the first round adding those deaths to your attacks so you can finish off the squad.

 

I am not the best gamer however but these are just my configurations I run. If anyone sees any errors in what I've said feel free to poitn them out. Hope I've helped.

 

EDIT: And because I take forever to type everything I've said has already been stated haha oh well

[Adarul Greystalker]

pay the extra points for a thunderhammer they leave squads with initiative 1 after being wounded and vehicles are crew stunned etc

striking at S10 with an extra attack ias ausome!!!

 

plus you have a higher toughness so harder to kill, maybe consider taking runic armour to increase your chances of survival

 

i do usually run a wolf lord and wolves squad, how ever the past 2 games this has led to to his destruction with 2 squads of dire avengers bladestorming me in the first turn (thats 60 S4 shots) now this takes the majority toughness (4 rather than the wolf lords 5) making them easier to kill, not only this but you take the majority save and with AP5 i get no saves on the wolves so wolf lord goes down too ;)

 

Actually, the 5th edition wound allocation system kicks in before saves are made, so there's no longer a "majority save" rule. Your wolf lord would still get his 3+ or 2+ armor save in that situation. Majority toughness is still in effect, though, so sadly you can't use your toughness of five in that case, as you pointed out.

[Wildfire]

It is waisted. But if it wasn't waisted, it'd certainly be hip! Haha

 

But seriously, first decide if you want to hit at your I5 or not. If you do, I personally would take frostblade and belt of russ. Don't bother with plasma pistol, bolt pistol saves you money and half the time you'll be fleeting anyways. Some people prefer dual wolf claws, but the difference in actual wounds is minimal (0.59 for claws, 0.55 for frostblade per attack against MEQs), so I prefer the extra strength from the frostblade. It allows you to inflict Instant Death on t3 models, and is a bigger threat to vehicles if you're in a pinch). This is infantry slaughtering configuration. I'd go with Saga of the Bear or Warrior Born, or possibly Beastslayer if you know for certain you're going up against MCs.

 

If you don't care about going at I5, then go thunderhammer and storm shield. This gives you a huge threat vs. vehicles and most importantly MCs. I'd always go for Saga of the Bear with this setup, just to be absolutely certain you can swing.

 

In either configuration, I'd take Runic Armor. If you're putting that many points into a character, you may as well give him the extra protection against getting swarmed.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

First decide if you want to hit at your I5 or not. If you do, I personally would take frostblade and belt of russ. Don't bother with plasma pistol, bolt pistol saves you money and half the time you'll be fleeting anyways. Some people prefer dual wolf claws, but the difference in actual wounds is minimal (0.59 for claws, 0.55 for frostblade per attack against MEQs), so I prefer the extra strength from the frostblade. It allows you to inflict Instant Death on t3 models, and is a bigger threat to vehicles if you're in a pinch). This is infantry slaughtering configuration. I'd go with Saga of the Bear or Warrior Born, or possibly Beastslayer if you know for certain you're going up against MCs.

 

If you don't care about going at I5, then go thunderhammer and storm shield. This gives you a huge threat vs. vehicles and most importantly MCs. I'd always go for Saga of the Bear with this setup, just to be absolutely certain you can swing.

 

In either configuration, I'd take Runic Armor. If you're putting that many points into a character, you may as well give him the extra protection against getting swarmed.

Also,if you are trying to take on Walkers or otherwise,and you go with FB and SS like I do,you can switch to doing a base STr 5 Rending attack to try and increse your armor pen. Against anything but a Full squad of Warrior 'Nids my TWM Lord with FB,SS has allways done amazingly. With Warrior Born I have managed to kill almost 40 guardsman all by himself,with bear he managed to wipe out two full squads of necrons and a Tomb spyder all in one combat. Granted the Necron player knew it was his last turn and he went for the gold trying to get every point he could and that was all he could reach but still. the 2+/3++ combo and 6 attacks works out wonders. And when you factor in the sheer intimidation factor that a TWM does if you get a decent model for it...its amazing.

 

I am just happily waiting for my 3 Cav models to go with the lord...a TH/SS,SS/CS and I haven't decided on a third set up...Probably SS/CS/MB....

[Sarapham]

Also,if you are trying to take on Walkers or otherwise,and you go with FB and SS like I do,you can switch to doing a base STr 5 Rending attack to try and increse your armor pen.

 

 

I don't think you can choose to not use a special weapon.

[wiplash]

Also,if you are trying to take on Walkers or otherwise,and you go with FB and SS like I do,you can switch to doing a base STr 5 Rending attack to try and increse your armor pen.

 

 

I don't think you can choose to not use a special weapon.

 

you can :D

[Blarmb]

Also,if you are trying to take on Walkers or otherwise,and you go with FB and SS like I do,you can switch to doing a base STr 5 Rending attack to try and increse your armor pen.

 

 

I don't think you can choose to not use a special weapon.

 

you can ;)

 

You cannot. The second on weapons makes it pretty clear that if a model has a special weapon it will use it not "may" use it. Ive been told this was different in previous editions, but that was before my time. As things are written now if model has a special weapon it has no option to not use it.

 

You'd need to keep your pistol or a standard CCW to be able to "Turn Off" your frost blade.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Also,if you are trying to take on Walkers or otherwise,and you go with FB and SS like I do,you can switch to doing a base STr 5 Rending attack to try and increse your armor pen.

 

 

I don't think you can choose to not use a special weapon.

 

you can :)

 

You cannot. The second on weapons makes it pretty clear that if a model has a special weapon it will use it not "may" use it. Ive been told this was different in previous editions, but that was before my time. As things are written now if model has a special weapon it has no option to not use it.

 

You'd need to keep your pistol or a standard CCW to be able to "Turn Off" your frost blade.

Hmmm...I did not know that...Well then I retract my statement...if dealing with Walkers...have a WTN and a MB,and enjoy hitting him with it on a 3+,if he complains,show him the errata,tell him Phil Kelly loves his Wolves,and raise a toast to him next oppurtunity you get.

[Grimtooth]

MoW attacks are made with claws and fangs, so I would argue that the model is still equipped with those and would be able to choose to forgo his weapon attacks and replace them with his MoW attacks.

[Stormbrow II]

The problem there Ramses is that MotW doesn't give you a special weapon, and so in a Fist v Wulfen (special v non-special) situation, the forced use of the Fist overrides the option to use Wulfen.

[Grimtooth]

The problem there Ramses is that MotW doesn't give you a special weapon, and so in a Fist v Wulfen (special v non-special) situation, the forced use of the Fist overrides the option to use Wulfen.

 

Except it is a special weapon, they make the attacks Rending. I am at the office right now, but will check the BRB when I get home.

[Stormbrow II]

It's not a special weapon. It's a special attack. The Fist is the special weapon. It replaces the Wulfen attacks in combat.

[Grimtooth]

It's not a special weapon. It's a special attack. The Fist is the special weapon. It replaces the Wulfen attacks in combat.

 

Check the BRB, pg 42. Rending weapons are listed under the Special Close Combat Weapons list. The claws and fangs are Rending weapons. So per the rules on the same page under Two different special weapons, the model gets to choose which weapon to use that turn.

[Ullr Direfang]

models with MotW attack using their Teeth and claws so if you give it a special weapon you are wasting points. i am at work so can't check page numbers, but it says in the MotW spot that they use no other weapons IIRC. and i do not believe that the are rending weapons, they just get the "rending special rule".

[Grimtooth]

models with MotW attack using their Teeth and claws so if you give it a special weapon you are wasting points. i am at work so can't check page numbers, but it says in the MotW spot that they use no other weapons IIRC. and i do not believe that the are rending weapons, they just get the "rending special rule".

 

Actually it doesn't say that they use no other weapons, just that the claws and fangs "are not affected by wargear, additional hand weapons, and so on".

 

Now if we look in the index of the BRB, for rending we get:

 

pg 31,

 

RENDING

 

"In the right circumstances, rending weapons have a chance of piercing any armor.....Any roll to wound with a rending weapon automatically causes a wound......"

 

pg 42,

 

SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS

 

Rending Weapons

 

If a model is armed with a rending close combat weapon, rolls a 6 on any of his to wound in close combat, "

 

Pretty clear that a model with MoW has claws and fangs that are considered to be rending weapons. Rending weapons are classified per the BRB as Special Close Combat Weapons. When a model has two different special close combat weapons, he must choose which to use that turn of close combat.

[Ullr Direfang]

weapons are wargear....

[Blarmb]

Mark of the Wolfen:

 

<Fluff Snipped>.... A model bearing the Mark of the Wolfen has the Rending special rule in close combat. Furthermore he replaces his usual Attacks with a D6+1.. <fluff snipped>

 

 

Nothing about it explicitly grants the unit Rending weapons. It seems more like it treats the the models non-special weapons as having the rending type. However it's far from clear cut and could possibly go either way.

 

By strict RAW. Mark of the Wolfen does nothing in regarding to rending, as there is no rending special rule. There is the rending weapon characteristic and "Rending Weapons" special combat weapon type.

 

Personally, I'd probably play Mark of the Wolfen as a weapon. However the rules don't really support it one way or another.

[Grimtooth]

weapons are wargear....

 

Really? Care to point out which section in the codex Mark of the Wulfen falls under? How about Runic Staff? How about pointing out "rending special rule" in the BRB for me?

[Grimtooth]

Mark of the Wolfen:

 

<Fluff Snipped>.... A model bearing the Mark of the Wolfen has the Rending special rule in close combat. Furthermore he replaces his usual Attacks with a D6+1.. <fluff snipped>

 

 

Nothing about it explicitly grants the unit Rending weapons. It seems more like it treats the the models non-special weapons as having the rending type. However it's far from clear cut and could possibly go either way.

 

By strict RAW. Mark of the Wolfen does nothing in regarding to rending, as there is no rending special rule. There is the rending weapon characteristic and "Rending Weapons" special combat weapon type.

 

Personally, I'd probably play Mark of the Wolfen as a weapon. However the rules don't really support it one way or another.

 

Wanted to point something out that you missed in your quote:

 

These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and hence are not affected by wargear, additional hand weapons, and so on,.....

 

If the claws and teeth are not weapons, how can you possibly be forbidden from the emboldened above. I mean you have to have weapons in the first place to be forbidden from getting additional correct? Marked models' claws and teeth are Rending weapons.

[Blarmb]

Mark of the Wolfen:

 

<Fluff Snipped>.... A model bearing the Mark of the Wolfen has the Rending special rule in close combat. Furthermore he replaces his usual Attacks with a D6+1.. <fluff snipped>

 

 

Nothing about it explicitly grants the unit Rending weapons. It seems more like it treats the the models non-special weapons as having the rending type. However it's far from clear cut and could possibly go either way.

 

By strict RAW. Mark of the Wolfen does nothing in regarding to rending, as there is no rending special rule. There is the rending weapon characteristic and "Rending Weapons" special combat weapon type.

 

Personally, I'd probably play Mark of the Wolfen as a weapon. However the rules don't really support it one way or another.

 

Wanted to point something out that you missed in your quote:

 

These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and hence are not affected by wargear, additional hand weapons, and so on,.....

 

If the claws and teeth are not weapons, how can you possibly be forbidden from the emboldened above. I mean you have to have weapons in the first place to be forbidden from getting additional correct? Marked models' claws and teeth are Rending weapons.

 

Most space wolves units come with a CCW and Pistol. If Mark of the Wolfen is simply granting the Rending type to standard attacks and modifying the attack profile it's relevant to say that it removes the standard bonus for having two weapons with you since otherwise the rule would apply. Nothing about it explicitly makes Wolfen it's own weapon. It's not listed as a weapon in the Wargear section and it at no point uses the term "Weapon" to refer to itself there just isn't any RAW support for it being a weapon.

 

Nothing explicitly says it isn't a weapon, then noting explicitly says that we CAN'T "Thunderduck Cavalry" which treats impassable pieces of water-themed terrain as clear. (Actually I think there is a rule somewhere that you can't take units listed not listed in your codex it was just meant as a silly example. IT'd be cool though, giant killer, yellow rubber duckies.. yeah...)

 

This wasn't addressed to me, but all the same..

Really? Care to point out which section in the codex Mark of the Wulfen falls under? How about Runic Staff? How about pointing out "rending special rule" in the BRB for me?

 

Mark of the Wolfen is the "Upgrades & Other Equipment" section of the Wargear list. Runic Staff is in the same section, with a reference back to the Rune Priest entry. There is no Runic Staff in the Rune Priest entry only "Runic Weapon". We can't assume the intent was for the "Runic Staff" entry to refer the "Runic Weapon" description. It's certainly possible but it's hardly the only explination. It could have just as easily been that in a pre-release/test version of the codex the Rune Priest had both a normal Force Weapon and a "Runic Staff" which provided the special rules a Runic Weapon does now. This is somewhat supported by the inclusion of the "Force Weapon" entry in the weapons section, also with a link back to the Rune Priest entry but it's all speculation. It doesn't matter anyway assuming "Runic Staff" does and was meant to = "Runic Weapon" in that entry it isn't relevant to MotW. Runic Weapon" has language that specifically identities it as a weapon, it's a Force Weapon which is an established type of weapon and has "Weapon" in the name, MotW has nothing to identify it like that.

[Valerian]

pay the extra points for a thunderhammer they leave squads with initiative 1 after being wounded and vehicles are crew stunned etc

striking at S10 with an extra attack ias ausome!!!

 

plus you have a higher toughness so harder to kill, maybe consider taking runic armour to increase your chances of survival

 

i do usually run a wolf lord and wolves squad, how ever the past 2 games this has led to to his destruction with 2 squads of dire avengers bladestorming me in the first turn (thats 60 S4 shots) now this takes the majority toughness (4 rather than the wolf lords 5) making them easier to kill, not only this but you take the majority save and with AP5 i get no saves on the wolves so wolf lord goes down too :P

 

Actually, the 5th edition wound allocation system kicks in before saves are made, so there's no longer a "majority save" rule. Your wolf lord would still get his 3+ or 2+ armor save in that situation. Majority toughness is still in effect, though, so sadly you can't use your toughness of five in that case, as you pointed out.

 

There never has been a "Majority Save" rule in any edition of this game.

 

Valerian

[Grimtooth]

Mark of the Wolfen:

 

<Fluff Snipped>.... A model bearing the Mark of the Wolfen has the Rending special rule in close combat. Furthermore he replaces his usual Attacks with a D6+1.. <fluff snipped>

 

 

Nothing about it explicitly grants the unit Rending weapons. It seems more like it treats the the models non-special weapons as having the rending type. However it's far from clear cut and could possibly go either way.

 

By strict RAW. Mark of the Wolfen does nothing in regarding to rending, as there is no rending special rule. There is the rending weapon characteristic and "Rending Weapons" special combat weapon type.

 

Personally, I'd probably play Mark of the Wolfen as a weapon. However the rules don't really support it one way or another.

 

Wanted to point something out that you missed in your quote:

 

These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and hence are not affected by wargear, additional hand weapons, and so on,.....

 

If the claws and teeth are not weapons, how can you possibly be forbidden from the emboldened above. I mean you have to have weapons in the first place to be forbidden from getting additional correct? Marked models' claws and teeth are Rending weapons.

 

Most space wolves units come with a CCW and Pistol. If Mark of the Wolfen is simply granting the Rending type to standard attacks and modifying the attack profile it's relevant to say that it removes the standard bonus for having two weapons with you since otherwise the rule would apply. Nothing about it explicitly makes Wolfen it's own weapon. It's not listed as a weapon in the Wargear section and it at no point uses the term "Weapon" to refer to itself there just isn't any RAW support for it being a weapon.

 

Nothing explicitly says it isn't a weapon, then noting explicitly says that we CAN'T "Thunderduck Cavalry" which treats impassable pieces of water-themed terrain as clear. (Actually I think there is a rule somewhere that you can't take units listed not listed in your codex it was just meant as a silly example. IT'd be cool though, giant killer, yellow rubber duckies.. yeah...)

 

This wasn't addressed to me, but all the same..

Really? Care to point out which section in the codex Mark of the Wulfen falls under? How about Runic Staff? How about pointing out "rending special rule" in the BRB for me?

 

Mark of the Wolfen is the "Upgrades & Other Equipment" section of the Wargear list. Runic Staff is in the same section, with a reference back to the Rune Priest entry. There is no Runic Staff in the Rune Priest entry only "Runic Weapon". We can't assume the intent was for the "Runic Staff" entry to refer the "Runic Weapon" description. It's certainly possible but it's hardly the only explination. It could have just as easily been that in a pre-release/test version of the codex the Rune Priest had both a normal Force Weapon and a "Runic Staff" which provided the special rules a Runic Weapon does now. This is somewhat supported by the inclusion of the "Force Weapon" entry in the weapons section, also with a link back to the Rune Priest entry but it's all speculation. It doesn't matter anyway assuming "Runic Staff" does and was meant to = "Runic Weapon" in that entry it isn't relevant to MotW. Runic Weapon" has language that specifically identities it as a weapon, it's a Force Weapon which is an established type of weapon and has "Weapon" in the name, MotW has nothing to identify it like that.

 

Upgrades & Other Equipment is under Space Wolves Wargear. Look at your table of contents. Your blanket statement of weapons are wargear is wrong.

 

How about this as a practical exercise. Look up rending in your BrB and tell me what you find. I already listed the pages and quotes, but I think unless you actually do it it yourself, you won't believe that there is no rending special rule, there is only Rending weapons which fall under the heading Special Close Combat Weapons.