Sweeping Advance v. We'll Be Back

[thade]

Okay so this is how i see it.

 

WWB states, i am be wrong on this so please correct me, that the laid units do not participate in the assault phase right? Or something to that effect?

 

Well, SA is part of the assault phase as per the 5th Ed. rules.

 

Also this should all be cleared up when Necrons get their much needed updated codex! It not, i will say Ni!

 

I wish it were this cut and dry. <3 The WBB rules make no mention of the assault phase, sadly.

 

WH40k is not a "Permissive Ruleset"; it leaves amazing amounts of "rules" to be inferred or guessed at, none of which we have explicit permission for, all of which still flies every day at the FLGS. WH40k is in need of a lot of work. The newer codexes bode well for this (while still leaving a lot to be desired, they're an improvement on the way things were written in the past) and my understanding is that a new Necron dex may (finally) be on the horizon.

 

Until then, I will be allowing the Necron players I know to make WBB rolls for downed models in assaults, even if their unit has been Swept. I don't play Necrons, but the few times I have played against them I effortlessly bulldozed over them with my Mech and assault troops (Mephiston makes rather short work of Monoliths). Given that, I'll not make it any harder on them. Just like a full Dark Eldar unit going down to a single flamer shot (a unit that's supposed to be for assaults, mind you), I think it's tragic how the Necron dex is so old and neglected. I look forward to their update.

[Divergent Reality]

I look forward to their update.

 

Indeed. I hope they explicitly answer many questions with the next codex.

[GeoWolf]

Here's how the Monolith thing works. A Monolith portal can teleport a unit of at least one 'alive' Necrons in the movement phase, and by doing so, grants a reroll to any Necrons (in that unit) that failed their WBB roll. If 'debris' Necrons which are lying in wait for WBB rolls aren't a part of any unit, then how would one of them that failed it's WBB roll ever get a reroll option? A model that was lying down and failed once can't ever go through because how could it ever justify hooking along onto a teleport for a unit that it isn't a part of because it's debris? The Monolith rule would infact be entirely pointless text, as it could never find itself in a situation where it's reroll ablity could be bestowed on anything: You can't teleport debris Necrons.

 

According to the WBB rules, all fallen necrons make their rolls at the beginning of the turn, before rolling for your reserves. At this point, they are part of a unit, specifically the unit they were closest to. I like Arnils thought on the rerolls are replacements coming in, makes sense fluff wise to me. However, the point I'm driving at is what Arnil started: the fallen are not part of the unit, they are casualties and don't take part in the assault phase. Me personally I'm a fan of keeping two groups of necrons near each other for support reasons when I use them. Many times, I will lose something like five necrons, three standing back up, and two going to another unit with the other rejoining the original unit. I have never had a problem with this "breaking" any rules, as WBB is specific to necrons. Yes, WBB doesn't work on models killed by SA, that is clearly stated. But any model killed before SA takes place, such as from shooting, are not killed by SA and still get their chance. And yes, I know SA doesn't kill models but rather removes units but my point still remains the same, WBB targets necrons as models, not units. It never says in the 'Dex or the FAQs that you roll WBB for the unit or roll for a unit that has fallen.

The other FAQ example isn't as strong but it states something like: 'a unit of Necrons is beaten in combat by a unit with power weapons and falls back. To help keep a track of casualties and Res orb, lie the models down and move them with the unit.'

 

This I see as a ruling that breaks the game, or at least how WBB should be working. Lets say for this instance that a unit of necrons manages to successfully run from a CC they lost. From a rules point, by moving the fallen necrons that get WBB due to being in range of a Res Orb with the unit guarantees that they will be in the 6" range they need. If you are moving the fallen with you, you may as well just give them Feel no Pain and be done with it. The ranges are there for a reason. If a unit runs and leaves their "wounded" behind then they have no way of getting them. Think of the enemy venting frustrations on the broken necrons as the others get away.

[SeattleDV8]

According to the WBB rules, all fallen necrons make their rolls at the beginning of the turn, before rolling for your reserves. At this point, they are part of a unit, specifically the unit they were closest to.

 

Only if that roll is successful does the downed models join a new unit. If they fail (if we follow your logic) they are still unit-less and cannot use the monolith.

Which 'breaks' the monollith portal rules.

I like Arnils thought on the rerolls are replacements coming in, makes sense fluff wise to me. However, the point I'm driving at is what Arnil started: the fallen are not part of the unit, they are casualties and don't take part in the assault phase.

 

Fluff does not = rules.

Me personally I'm a fan of keeping two groups of necrons near each other for support reasons when I use them. Many times, I will lose something like five necrons, three standing back up, and two going to another unit with the other rejoining the original unit. I have never had a problem with this "breaking" any rules, as WBB is specific to necrons.

Nothing in what you describe there breaks any rules.

And yes, I know SA doesn't kill models but rather removes units but my point still remains the same, WBB targets necrons as models, not units. It never says in the 'Dex or the FAQs that you roll WBB for the unit or roll for a unit that has fallen.

Exactly! WWB can't save the unit.

 

 

This I see as a ruling that breaks the game, or at least how WBB should be working. Lets say for this instance that a unit of necrons manages to successfully run from a CC they lost. From a rules point, by moving the fallen necrons that get WBB due to being in range of a Res Orb with the unit guarantees that they will be in the 6" range they need. If you are moving the fallen with you, you may as well just give them Feel no Pain and be done with it. The ranges are there for a reason. If a unit runs and leaves their "wounded" behind then they have no way of getting them. Think of the enemy venting frustrations on the broken necrons as the others get away

 

Yes but the rules don't work the way one wants or wishes them to, they work the way they are written.

In this case the downed models remain part of the parent unit until after a successful WWB roll or are removed by Sweeping Advance.

[Mezkh]

I wouldn't have a problem most of the time with effectively house-ruling (it isn't a dirty word) any Necron opponents model's downed before their unit are swept don't get removed and get a chance to join a different unit provided they're within 6" of same type or 12" a Tombspyder as you say thade.

 

Unless it was very experienced tournament player (but playing a very weak codex in the tournament?) who really should know better or something.

 

The main problem would arise when you're the Necron player and your opponent pulls you up on it and doesn't want to play it that way. You'd be a 'naughty Necron' to argue the point, yet still enjoy the best and most powerful part of the Necron Codex which is Monoliths teleporting and rerolling 'We'll be back' rolls! :D

[greatcrusade08]

ok you guys are on page three and no-one has quoted the exact WBB rule..

 

Any necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show thats its damaged. damaged necrons ignore the normal coherancy rules and cannot be attacked in any way - they are seen as just more battlefiled debris.

- snip-

Additionally the self repair ability only works if the wounded necron is within 6" of another model of the same type, althouhg not necessarily of the same unit

 

The repaired necron will imediately be placed in coherancy with the closest unit of the same type. Once joined with a unit, the necron moves and fights with it for the rest of the game.

 

There is two parts to this rule.

 

1: A damaged necron is not noted as having left its unit, nor does it state it doesnt count as being part of the unit, just that it ignores unit coherancy and cannot be attacked.. the fact that it specifically states the ignoring coherancy tells me that whilst on its side it still counts as being part of that unit... which explains how a monolith can be used to retry WBB rolls.

2: Once a damaged necron is repaired it has the ability to join a different unit, again this doesnt mean it wasnt part of a unit, just that they switched units if certain conditions are met.

 

 

Also since sweeping advance isnt an actual 'attack' and the downed necrons are still part of the unit, when the unit is removed they too are removed.

 

simples :huh:

 

Unless it was very experienced tournament player (but playing a very weak codex in the tournament?) who really should know better or something.

I took a scout army to a tournament and did quite well for myself, having been looking at the necron codex recently i dont think its too weak, you just need to get the phalanx tactics right.. its not what youve got but how to use it (at least thats what my wife says).

So never wanting to give up a challenge and being somewhat obsessive about force multipliers and metagmaing at the moment ill be collecting a necron army in the near future.. see if i cant work my magicks :)

[thade]

Damn, GC08. I hate to say it, but I agree with you.

 

As it doesn't explicitly state they leave the unit, they must still be a part of the unit. Derp. I'm embarrassed. I read the WBB rule a dozen times during this discussion and never thought to cite it directly in this post; nor did I get out of it what you did. Thisgamehassomanyruuullees. >_<

 

Well, my buddy will be upset; but he's still very new to the WH scene. Hopefully he adapts. =) He's pretty lethal with Necrons already.

[Arnil]

Well I am forced to agree! Haha yep poor necrons!! My Girlfriend saw their codex today and exclaimed, "CUTE!!" I am not sure how to take this....POOR cute little necronies!!! All their skull faces will be sad now!! Seriousness now. I agree that the RAW mean all necrons die for good! The still twitching corpses are ground to dust under imperial treads. Maybe i just will choose not to mention this ruleing on the rule to my gameing buddies, hehe! ;)

[Divergent Reality]

Haha yep poor necrons!! My Girlfriend saw their codex today and exclaimed, "CUTE!!"

 

Mine did the exact same thing.

[Arnil]

What is with that? I honestly dont see it...they are cool...and after this discussion im thinking ill start collecting them....but cute????

 

"He is so fluffy with his cold metal skin and deathly green ray gun that flays molecules from your skin"...actually my girlfriend might like that aspect of them...

 

Needless to say...

 

LOL!